Traditionalist and non-traditionalist Catholics

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Sep 15, 2020

Aspzan said:
I've actually never been Baptised. I was set to attend a Baptist church when they closed due to the Corona virus. Which is actually pretty good because I might have never started to consider Catholicism. The advantages of the RCIA are why I like the idea of it.

God surely acts in a mysterious way, doesn't he?

Aspzan said:
Yeah I'm sort of learning as much as I can about Catholicism but I think it might be best to just contact a Church.

I do worry sometimes because I haven't been baptised. I also have done what Catholics consider mortal sins. What if I die before I can become Catholic or confess etc? I read online that if it's my intention to do both and if I am repentant for my sin I should trust the mercy of God. I am repentant and have prayed for forgiveness but it's still a worry.

Yes, that's precisely how it is! Your intent is known to God so dont worry about it. Call me a heretic, but God is above the sacraments, he's the master of all creation. He chose to establish the sacraments for our sake, not his. We are to make use of them sure, but God is not tied to them as are we.
I do sympathize with this anxiety of yours though. I felt very much the same way when I started my journey towards full communion seven years back.
Trust in the mercy of the Lord my friend, we all do.

Gnarwhal · Sep 15, 2020

Aspzan said:
I plan on going to a Latin Mass first. The thing is I heard that the RCIA isn't as common in churches with the TLM? Maybe I misunderstood. I like the idea of RCIA.

If anything I would think catechesis is more available and accessible in TLM parishes because they tend to be more intentional about doing things correctly and thoroughly. It might look a little different than a Novus Ordo parishes, from what I understand a lot of TLM parishes will have the priest do the catechesis himself whereas in others there might be a layperson or a team who handle it. But then, having a priest instruct in the faith is the age-old way of doing things so it's consistent with the culture of a TLM.

Rhamiel · Sep 15, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Rhamiel - Is there any real difference between the RadTrads and the Ultra-Traditionalists or are they effectively one in the same? Also, can we assume that many/most RadTrads and Ultra-Traditionalists would pretty much agree with the late Father Feeney on the EENS salvation doctrine issue?

really if someone is called a traditionalist, RadTrad, or Ultra Traditional just depends on who is using the terms.
I know atleast one Sedevacantist who absolutely cannot stand Feeneyism

I have read one book that claims that Fr Feeney was extreme but not as extreme as people make him seem and I am probably close to his view

Dansiph · Sep 15, 2020

Fenwick said:
If anything I would think catechesis is more available and accessible in TLM parishes because they tend to be more intentional about doing things correctly and thoroughly. It might look a little different than a Novus Ordo parishes, from what I understand a lot of TLM parishes will have the priest do the catechesis himself whereas in others there might be a layperson or a team who handle it. But then, having a priest instruct in the faith is the age-old way of doing things so it's consistent with the culture of a TLM.

I don't know if this matters but the Church I'm looking at has four Mass times. One on Saturday evening and three on Sunday. One of the three on Sunday is in Latin. So is this church likely a mixture of Novus Ordo and TLM?

Gnarwhal · Sep 15, 2020

Aspzan said:
I don't know if this matters but the Church I'm looking at has four Mass times. One on Saturday evening and three on Sunday. One of the three on Sunday is in Latin. So is this church likely a mixture of Novus Ordo and TLM?

It might be, which is totally fine. That's what we'd call a "diocesan TLM" which only distinguishes it from, say, the FSSP or ICKSP which are priestly societies dedicated exclusively to celebrating the TLM.

I think when you have a diocesan parish that offers the TLM alongside other Masses, those other Masses tend to be more reverent, which is good. Sometimes the priest will still celebrate the Novus Ordo ad orientem (facing east, like he would in the TLM) which sets a far more appropriate tone within the Mass, in and of itself.

chevyontheriver · Sep 15, 2020

Aspzan said:
Yeah I'm sort of learning as much as I can about Catholicism but I think it might be best to just contact a Church.

I do worry sometimes because I haven't been baptised. I also have done what Catholics consider mortal sins. What if I die before I can become Catholic or confess etc? I read online that if it's my intention to do both and if I am repentant for my sin I should trust the mercy of God. I am repentant and have prayed for forgiveness but it's still a worry.

If you are repentant, prayed for forgiveness, and intend to be baptized then you will be OK. Baptism gives you a clean slate, so look forward to it.

Do contact a parish. Do keep asking here. Do get a Catechism of the Catholic Church and start in on that. Keep being curious.

pdudgeon · Sep 16, 2020

Aspzan said:
Yeah I'm sort of learning as much as I can about Catholicism but I think it might be best to just contact a Church.

I do worry sometimes because I haven't been baptised. I also have done what Catholics consider mortal sins. What if I die before I can become Catholic or confess etc? I read online that if it's my intention to do both and if I am repentant for my sin I should trust the mercy of God. I am repentant and have prayed for forgiveness but it's still a worry.

In this case, you should indeed trust in BOTH God's mercy, and also (and this is very important) in His ability to keep you safe through the entire process.

I'm sure that you have seen a picture of Jesus as The Good Shepherd, as He is carrying a lamb in His arms, and the legs of the lamb are bound together (hobbled).

Do you know why that is? The legs of the lamb are hobbled:
1. for ease in carrying
2. to teach the lamb that he can trust in Jesus to carry him where he needs to be.
3. to teach that wayward lamb the submission of his will to that of the Shepherd.

Even after the Good Shepherd gets the lamb back to the security of the fold and his flock, the lamb's legs remain hobbled until the Shepherd can trust that he has learned not to wander, and so that the flock can also get used to a strange lamb in their midst, come close to examine him without fear that he might harm them, and to eventually accept him as one of the flock.

If the lamb's legs were unhobbled, or if he was set free too early, he would run away into the wild, where the wolves would be waiting for him.

Two words are very important during the RCIA experience: Trust and Obey.
Remember those words, because during the process you will be learning lots of new things that at first glance may seem strange to you, but which are actually designed to bring you closer to God in the end.

Best wishes to you!!

Dansiph · Sep 16, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Take Vigano with a grain of salt. He does have good things to say though.

I forgot to ask. What do you mean by this?

chevyontheriver · Sep 16, 2020

Aspzan said:
I forgot to ask. What do you mean by this?

Well, I believe there is something to his charge that pope Francis decided to use then cardinal McCarrick in China diplomacy after pope Benedict had put him on the bench for his abuses. I think archbishop Vigano is otherwise a bit too dramatic. So if he says something I'm willing to see what others say before I jump on his bandwagon. Trust but verify is how I feel about him. He seems to be a newfound critic of Vatican II, and I'm skeptical of his position on that.

Dansiph · Sep 16, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Well, I believe there is something to his charge that pope Francis decided to use then cardinal McCarrick in China diplomacy after pope Benedict had put him on the bench for his abuses. I think archbishop Vigano is otherwise a bit too dramatic. So if he says something I'm willing to see what others say before I jump on his bandwagon. Trust but verify is how I feel about him. He seems to be a newfound critic of Vatican II, and I'm skeptical of his position on that.

I don't know much of the backstory but I Googled it. I'm trying to avoid jumping on any bandwagons too.

pdudgeon · Sep 17, 2020

When you are new to the Catholic Church, well-considered thought is a good thing.

Just make sure that your RCIA course takes care to build a good solid foundation from the beginning,
and then test everything you hear against that. If you do that, you should be fine.

Dansiph · Sep 29, 2020

Interesting video on the subject of this thread:

Gnarwhal · Sep 29, 2020

Aspzan said:
Interesting video on the subject of this thread:

I tend to prefer Tim and Dave Gordon's approach to traditionalism. One can be traditional without LARPing and harboring borderline beliefs.

Dansiph · Sep 29, 2020

Fenwick said:
I tend to prefer Tim and Dave Gordon's approach to traditionalism. One can be traditional without LARPing and harboring borderline beliefs.

I read about Tim Gordon yesterday. I'd never heard of him. Apparently he was on a podcast with Dr. Taylor Marshall? A lot of the comments were quite negative towards Tim Gordon. I'm withholding judgement.

What do you mean by LARPing?

Dansiph · Sep 29, 2020

Aspzan said:
I read about Tim Gordon yesterday. I'd never heard of him. Apparently he was on a podcast with Dr. Taylor Marshall? A lot of the comments were quite negative towards Tim Gordon. I'm withholding judgement.

What do you mean by LARPing?

I should have said none of the comments were about what he says but HOW he says it. His attitude and way of talking. Which isn't really important in most cases.

Gnarwhal · Sep 29, 2020

Aspzan said:
I read about Tim Gordon yesterday. I'd never heard of him. Apparently he was on a podcast with Dr. Taylor Marshall? A lot of the comments were quite negative towards Tim Gordon. I'm withholding judgement.

What do you mean by LARPing?

Yeah I'm a big fan of his personally. His podcasts tend to be more of a mix of ecclesial-theological-political-social content where Marshall's skew more towards simply theological-ecclesial. Which is fine, I think I just appreciate the diversity of content more from Gordon, but I like both guys.

Gordon and Marshall did "TNT" for almost a year, and it was really good, then apparently around November 2019 Marshall kind of started ghosting Gordon. He made an appearance on Tim's newly-minted podcast "Rules 4 Retrogrades" that he started with his brother Dave, and that seems to have been their last hurrah. I think they had a difference of opinion on issues surrounding the SSPX and it's status. It kind of came to a head on Easter Sunday and the week that followed. The Gordon's have made several attempts to extend olive branches even though they were arguably the ones who were wronged, or at least Dave was, but Marshall hasn't acknowledged them. Which is a shame.

When I say LARPing I mean some radtrads tend to advocating for a world more reminiscent of the 12th century, often promoting monarchy as the only acceptable and valid form of government and societal norms that go with that. They often take a hostile posture towards non-traditional Catholics, condemning any Mass that isn't the TLM, disparaging every pope since Pius XI, etc. Now to an extent I understand and may even agree. For over 1,900 years western society was governed by a moral character that was established by the Church and it's disintegrated in the last 55 years or so. I also agree that the TLM is better, but I think Catholics like the Gordon's and myself prefer the TLM while also acknowledging that the Novus Ordo is indeed valid—just ugly by comparison.

Dansiph · Sep 29, 2020

Fenwick said:
Yeah I'm a big fan of his personally. His podcasts tend to be more of a mix of ecclesial-theological-political-social content where Marshall's skew more towards simply theological-ecclesial. Which is fine, I think I just appreciate the diversity of content more from Gordon, but I like both guys.

Gordon and Marshall did "TNT" for almost a year, and it was really good, then apparently around November 2019 Marshall kind of started ghosting Gordon. He made an appearance on Tim's newly-minted podcast "Rules 4 Retrogrades" that he started with his brother Dave, and that seems to have been their last hurrah. I think they had a difference of opinion on issues surrounding the SSPX and it's status. It kind of came to a head on Easter Sunday and the week that followed. The Gordon's have made several attempts to extend olive branches even though they were arguably the ones who were wronged, or at least Dave was, but Marshall hasn't acknowledged them. Which is a shame.

When I say LARPing I mean some radtrads tend to advocating for a world more reminiscent of the 12th century, often promoting monarchy as the only acceptable and valid form of government and societal norms that go with that. They often take a hostile posture towards non-traditional Catholics, condemning any Mass that isn't the TLM, disparaging every pope since Pius XI, etc. Now to an extent I understand and may even agree. For over 1,900 years western society was governed by a moral character that was established by the Church and it's disintegrated in the last 55 years or so. I also agree that the TLM is better, but I think Catholics like the Gordon's and myself prefer the TLM while also acknowledging that the Novus Ordo is indeed valid—just ugly by comparison.

I agree it's a shame they're not friendly anymore. I also agree with the moral character in many ways being disintergrated. However we can all sometimes put on our rose tinted glasses with the past. I welcome the good but not all of it was good. I think that's what you were also getting at.

Like the 12th Century... For example I've been reading bits about the Crusades and many Kings who would go to fight in the Crusades would then have other compatriots or European rulers try to take their lands. Corruption has always been a thing. So they'd have to fight multiple wars from great distances. Weakening the effort Christian nations and armies could put into the Crusades and also just adding to the corruption of society. So it's not all sunshine and rainbows in the past lol.

pdudgeon · Sep 30, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Well, I believe there is something to his charge that pope Francis decided to use then cardinal McCarrick in China diplomacy after pope Benedict had put him on the bench for his abuses. I think archbishop Vigano is otherwise a bit too dramatic. So if he says something I'm willing to see what others say before I jump on his bandwagon. Trust but verify is how I feel about him. He seems to be a newfound critic of Vatican II, and I'm skeptical of his position on that.

Also keep in mind that in their day, the Apostles were in the same spot.
It took courage and faith for them to step out on their own after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
It would have been far easier to just go back to the Temple, and the Old Way of doing things.
Heck, let the High Priest handle things, and we'll go back to our boats!

But for one thing: they knew better. They knew the Messiah!

chevyontheriver · Sep 30, 2020

pdudgeon said:
But for one thing: they knew better. They knew the Messiah!

That is the thing that matters. Bishops that know the Messiah, that then exercise their apostolic authority to lead others to the Messiah. Maybe Vigano does that. I have no indication that he doesn't. Some of these other guys seem not to.

Gnarwhal · Sep 30, 2020

Aspzan said:
I agree it's a shame they're not friendly anymore. I also agree with the moral character in many ways being disintergrated. However we can all sometimes put on our rose tinted glasses with the past. I welcome the good but not all of it was good. I think that's what you were also getting at.

Like the 12th Century... For example I've been reading bits about the Crusades and many Kings who would go to fight in the Crusades would then have other compatriots or European rulers try to take their lands. Corruption has always been a thing. So they'd have to fight multiple wars from great distances. Weakening the effort Christian nations and armies could put into the Crusades and also just adding to the corruption of society. So it's not all sunshine and rainbows in the past lol.

Yep the Crusades, while a noble and righteous cause, had consequences back home socially, politically, fiscally, etc. But there was recovery also.

Believe me, I do wish I was born in a different age. Maybe the late 1887 instead of 1987 so I could've come of age in the early 1900s in the golden age of rail travel, before all the distractions of entertainment media (which is ironic of me to say since it's my profession, my livelihood today). But I digress.

I know every era has it's own set of problems, but the diabolical movements of 2020 and perhaps the past 25-50 years certainly make me feel as though I prefer almost any other era. What I think the radtrads are right about is that the faith was noticeably more unified, stronger, prior to the reforms of Vatican II. There were still apostates and heretics and lapsed Catholics to be sure, but the changes that came after the council have really ruptured and fragmented things in a different way.

Traditionalist and non-traditionalist Catholics

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