LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

He is the way said:

Joseph Smith Mansion House - Wikipedia

https://www.amazon.com/His-Arms-Experiences-Other-Side/dp/189082836X

My great great grandfathers diary is private.

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I see, neither diary freely available.
that's unfortunate.

thank you for the Wikipedia article link about the mansion house.

Leaf473 said:

so, not that I want to beat this to death, but just so I can understand the situation of LDS and anonymous giving,

the only way that I can think of that an LDS could give anonymously is to put cash into an envelope and mail it to the Bishop's address without filling out a slip to go with it or putting any return address on it.

is this practice allowed for lds?
if it is allowed, is that made clear on the church's website, or handbook, or is this frequently talked about from the pulpit?

also, I hope your check situation gets resolved soon!

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What you're describing is a situation I've never heard of happening.

dzheremi said:

I stopped the video after about three minutes (when the presenter is done with his six approaches), because I couldn't help but notice the underlying assumption in all of these is that there is this thing called "The Book of Abraham" that makes it reasonable to make some kind of link between the Biblical Jewish patriarch Abraham and the text that JS supposedly 'translated' from the papyrus or papyri to produce said book. As just pointed out by Hrairoo, it doesn't seem like the LDS themselves necessarily stick to this as a hard and fast rule when discussing the book (if you'll recall from Elder Holland's interview by BBC journalist John Sweeney -- which I think I linked to in this thread, and if not I can easily find again -- now the LDS line is that they don't know what was on the papyri; they only know that what got translated from it got translated into the word of God...right, right ).

So if they don't, why should we? And then if neither of us do, then all six of these approaches -- since they rely on there being such a relation between the text of the papyri and the BOA -- are inherently flawed and unworkable.

It's the 'Reformed Egyptian' problem all over again: Mormons themselves can't seem to figure out what they're even arguing for in the first place (is 'Reformed Egyptian' a language, a script in which some other non-Egyptian language was written, or something else? Is the BOA the translation of the papyri -- in which case it makes no sense for LDS leaders to now claim that they don't know what the papyri said -- or was the papyri just some sort of vehicle for 'inspiration' in writing the BOA?).

Until or unless they figure that out and stick with it (which they'll never do; 'continuing revelation' allows them to change their direction whenever science tells them they're wrong, as it most definitely has with regard to the BOA and its supposed Egyptian origins), I don't see any reason why anyone should have to take their claims seriously. After all, actual academically-trained, dispassionate Egyptologists have said there is no mention of Abraham in any sense on the available papyrus (which matches up with the BOA with regard to these illustrations, so there's no room for Mormons to claim that the BOA was actually found on some other papyrus, as though it's just some big coincidence that they happen to still be printing their BOA with those same drawings and wrong explanations!), so it's that very definite conclusion based on actually being able to read the darn thing vs. Mormons' protestations that the BOA is...something.

Hmmm...now I wonder who I should go with...

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hmmm... the LDS position about whether there was a book of Abraham before Joseph Smith produced it goes back and forth? interesting.

this site has lots of interesting ancient texts
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

there's a book attributed to adam, one to Solomon, somewhere else I think there's a book of Enoch.

but no mention of a book of Abraham.

He is the way said:

You said: "
why would God inspire Abraham to write a book and then leave it hidden for maybe 3,500 years?
God's word to us is like light to our path,
and like Jesus said, people don't light a lamp and then put a bucket over it.
going over the 66 books in the Protestant canon, I can't think of one that wasn't revealed during the writer's lifetime or shortly thereafter.
but did I miss something?"

God does not reveal all things at once. Jesus said:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 3)

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

(New Testament | Matthew 17:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Surely there are many things that will not be revealed until the millennium.

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I'm sure there are things yet to be revealed.

but I was talking about documents.
in Joseph's case, there seem to be many documents which were discovered, but only by him.
and, in a language such that only he could say what they mean.

that's very different from how God did things in the documents that make up the bible.

for one thing, Joseph's situation violates God's repeated admonition to use two or three witnesses.

He is the way said:

I have always filled out the form for two reasons 1 to indicate where the donation is to go and 2 so I can compare at the end of the year to see that it is correct. I don't know if there are people who do not fill out the form.

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I believe you talked about following what the prophet says.

does the prophet say that tithe must be given to the bishop?
does the prophet say that filling out a slip of paper to go with your cash donation is required?

if you don't know, that's fine.
from what I have read of the church handbook on the official site,
anonymous tithing is not possible.

He is the way said:

I don't believe there was a complete apostasy, but I do believe that was an apostasy:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:1 - 2)

1 BUT there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

(New Testament | Acts 20:29 - 31)

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

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yes, we both agree there was apostasy.

if there were still true Christians around, then of the many thousands of copies of New testament documents that survive from that time, it follows that some of them must be accurate copies, imo.

that would mean that plain and precious things had not been removed,
and that Joseph was, well, untrustworthy.

Peter1000 said:

Here is the interesting thing. Even though a man is called an Egyptologist, it does not mean he knows all there is about ancient Egypt. In fact, I'm guessing he knows less than 10% of everything ancient Egypt.

So if an Egyptologist says "per our knowledge, I think JS does not translate this correctly", you have to take into account the 10% problem. No Egyptian or Egyptologist knows the special nuances and deep secrets of the thoughts of the men that created the figures and symbols that are presented in their writings and drawings in their tombs and temples.

What we have to do is look at each figure or symbol individually on the facsimile, that JS said something about. JS hit many of these figures or symbols right on target, as to how the Egyptologist would have agreed. How could JS hit anything ancient Egyptian right on target? Did he have a book or information from the doctors or scientists of ancient Egyptian origins. Not in Nauvoo, Illinois, the frontier jumping off point to the wild west territories, in the 1830's, and having no access to anything ancient Egyptian.

So what about those things he got wrong. Wrong by who's word? An Egyptologist? You know that if you give 10 Egyptologists a piece of writing in ancient Egyptian, and ask them to translate the writing, you would get 10 different translations. So what about those thing that do not agree with Egyptologists? Are they really wrong? No, they are wrong according to the knowledge of the Egyptologist (10% problem), but not wrong period. They look wrong according to our knowledge today, but what happens if in 20 years we find out that what JS said was right on target.

It is like the translation of the BOM. When JS published the BOM, scientists howled and laughed with glee that this stupid JS would write such things about ancient American people that were scientifically so wrong, according to the knowledge of the scientific community, who are experts in ancient American history. Some 30 items that were perposterously stupid, JS should be embarrassed.
But 150 years later, of those 30 items, 23 of them have been proven to be scientifically true, 2 are on the verge of being proven true, and 5 are still not proven one way or the other. (this is an example, the numbers could be different, but the point is taken).

The BOA facsimilies are in the same state of criticism.

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in this section of your post, I believe you are basically attacking egyptology.

that's fine, I agree that there is probably huge amounts egyptologists don't know.

that's one reason why I'm very reluctant to go down the path of comparing what one egyptologist says about the book of Abraham with what another egyptologist says.

so it's fine with me if we want to say that egyptologists currently can neither be used to support nor undermine the book of Abraham.

we do have tons of documents left over from the ancient Greek world, including loads of copies of New testament documents.
seeing how Joseph handled the New testament situation makes me reluctant to trust him to handle something written in Egyptian.

Why would God inspire Enoch to write a book and then leave it hidden for maybe 4500 years?

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I don't know that God did inspire The book of Enoch.
do LDS believe that he did?

Why would God tell us in the Bible to read the epistle to the Laodiceans (Revelation 4:16)
and then allowed the book to go out of existence? Have you ever read this book?

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I think you mean this verse?
Colossians 4:16 When this letter has been read among you, cause it to be read also in the assembly of the Laodiceans; and that you also read the letter from Laodicea.

two possible explanations,
the letter to the laodiceans was not inspired,
or,
the book we call Ephesians is also the letter to laodicea.
the idea is that Paul sent the same letter to several churches and replaced just the name and personal greetings at the end.
the personal greetings in the letter to laodicea were not inspired.

why tell us to read it?
maybe that instruction wasn't intended for all churches, just as an instruction to receive a particular person would not be intended for all churches, just the church that person was going to.

Why did God allow Noah's writings to go out of existence?
Why did God not allow us to read many of the NT writers?
I could go on, but I hope this makes sense to you.

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did Noah write things? were they inspired?

in the early days of the church, there were lots of letters going around.
some were written by apostles, some were written in the name of an apostle.

it took the church centuries to figure out which documents were going to be considered inspired.
the people who made the final determination were also involved in practices that some people today say were signs of apostasy.

in the end, my faith is not in the Bible.
it is in the character of God, what he has done and will do.

We do not know why God did these things.
We must have faith that what we have and what the present prophets and apostles are telling us is enough to get us to the kingdom of God.

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sure! then the question is who today are the prophets and apostles, if anyone?

Leaf473 said:

hmmm... the LDS position about whether there was a book of Abraham before Joseph Smith produced it goes back and forth? interesting.

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I'm not sure exactly how they'd put it for apologetic purposes, but I do know that Elder Holland himself said (after being presented with the fact that Egyptologists who have dealt with the text of the papyri say it doesn't match at all with what JS produced) "what got translated got translated into the word of God; the vehicle for that I do not understand and don't claim to know -- I know no Egyptian" (at about 3 minutes into this video, which is an analysis of Holland's aforementioned interview with John Sweeney of the BBC).

In other words, we don't know how it happened, but it did. But is that what the BOA itself claims?

No, of course not. The introduction to the book reads: A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

this site has lots of interesting ancient texts
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

there's a book attributed to adam, one to Solomon, somewhere else I think there's a book of Enoch.

but no mention of a book of Abraham.

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Yeah. It wouldn't be in there, because that website only has actual ancient writings, not ones that were newly invented in the 1830s-40s.

Just by the way: user Peter1000 is, as he unfortunately usually is, very wrong concerning the Book of Enoch. It is not a part of my own Church's canon, but it is a part of the canon of our sister Churches' in Ethiopia and Eritrea, so we've always known about its existence. Scholars say it dates back to maybe the third century BC, which is a far cry from 4,500 years ago, and anyway it still existed in Greek as late as the 4th century AD, and hence can be found referenced in several early Christian writers, such as St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Origen, St. Cyprian of Carthage, and others. I don't know when exactly it stopped circulating in Greek, but it only exists in its entirety today in its Ge'ez translations (Ge'ez being the classical language of the Orthodox churches of Ethiopia and Eritrea), which is what all modern English translations are therefore based on.

Amateur Mormon apologists (or at least the ones that frequent this board) seem to have the regrettable habit of confusing "unknown to Europeans for a time" (as the book of Enoch was from some indeterminate point until the 17th century) with "hidden from all of the world for centuries and centuries". They did the same thing years ago when we were discussing BOM pseudo-geography as it related to knowledge of Mayan civilization in JS' day. They were wrong then about that, and they're wrong now about this.

Leaf473 said:

I believe you talked about following what the prophet says.

does the prophet say that tithe must be given to the bishop?
does the prophet say that filling out a slip of paper to go with your cash donation is required?

if you don't know, that's fine.
from what I have read of the church handbook on the official site,
anonymous tithing is not possible.

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I only know of one instance where someone put a small amount of Korean money in an envelope as a joke and turned it in without any paperwork or address. I am not aware of what happened with that. I don't believe it would be possible to prevent anyone from giving anonymously if they wanted to.

thank you for the nice response, Peter1000.

Peter1000 said:

You are correct.

This is not correct, there were millions and millions of Christians on the Earth since the first century.

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I believe I was saying that the Bible didn't prophesy a complete apostasy after the death of the apostles.
if you are aware of such a prophecy in the Bible, I'm interested!

Notice I left off the word "true". Although they were righteous believers in Christ and lived a life that will allow them to enter the kingdom of heaven, they were not technically true Christians.

Only when one is baptized and receive the Holy Ghost and the other ordinances that are necessary for salvation may they be "true" Christians.

This is the very reason that God has set up the "spirit world", where the spirits of all men go when they die. Here in the spirit world will these faithful saints learn the full gospel of Jesus Christ and through our baptism for the dead doctrine, they will recieve their true baptism and receive the Holy Ghost and other ordinances necessary for salvation.
IOW God has not abandoned them, they are in his hands at all times, and will inherit the kingdom of God the same as people who are living today with these ordinaces available in the flesh.

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well, it sounds like we have a different definition of what a true Christian is.

as it relates to this discussion, what I think is interesting is that whatever was happening doctrinally in those early centuries, thousands of copies of the New testament documents were being made.
the vast majority of those copies, as I understand it, agree with each other almost all the time.

so the idea that there was lots of teaching in the original New testament documents that was removed through malice or carelessness is very difficult for me to swallow.

And how many wonderful stories do you read in history about wonderful Chirstians that let their light shine to light up the world, as wonderful examples of Christian charities and the love of God. Thousands of stories.

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yes, and praise God for the wonderful stories!

I was talking especially about the period from the death of the 12 apostles to the reformation.
what were true Christians doing during that time?

growing up as Pentecostal, we just assumed the church probably went to sleep during that time, and woke up at about the beginning of the 20th century, when the first part of the Pentecostal movement was happening.

now... the Christians in the first couple centuries, up until about 400 ad...
were they serious enough about following Christ to be careful when copying the scriptures and pick out which documents were scripture?

It only makes sense when you know that God has a plan for each and every person no matter what time they live. The baptism for the dead doctrine is the equalizer for all good Christians everywhere and any time.

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The part doesn't make sense to me is that Jesus said
Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
but some combination of Satan and evil people was able to hide the city?

Matthew 16:18 I also tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
according to tradition, John is the last apostle to die, and that's at about 100 ad at the latest.
so, Jesus said he would build a church that would overwhelm the gates of hades,
but it only manages to last 70 years at the most?
that's the part that doesn't sound right to me.

many did, but there writings no longer exist.

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are you making a statement based solely on faith?

or are there documents from the period or events in history that lead you to say this?

Thousands and thousands of people left the church who believed that the church had moved away from them. Especially by the dark ages, when the church was more of a dictator than a shepherd. By the 1500's the church was so far gone, that the head of the protestant reformation, Martin Luther said that the Pope was satan incarnate and the Vatican was were satan lived.
I would call that far worse words than "there was an apostacy".

So by the 1500's the Roman Catholic church was all that was left of the original Church of Jesus Christ of the first century. All other churches that existed in the East and in Europe, broke off, and left the Catholic Church. The church that supposedly held the keys of the kingdom of heaven. (not by that time, the keys were long gone).

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I believe many members of the very large Eastern Orthodox communion and other smaller groups would wish to dispute many of the claims you make there.

So read books on the reformation, people mention it often. In fact read books on the history of the Christian church and their councils, and you will see the apostacy right before your eyes.

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I have studied the Reformation and Church history, not as much as I would like... so many books, so little time.

I believe the Catholic position is that when the entire church meets together in an ecumenical council, the decisions arrived at are guaranteed by the holy Spirit.
The first example of this is acts 15, the most recent Vatican II.

most Catholic and Orthodox people I've talked to believe that the spirit guides the church as a whole.
most Protestants believe the spirit guides each individual separately.

imo, whether a person believes the church was in apostasy during that time is a matter of which assumptions they begin with.

You could say the same thing about the Bible documents as they were written too, it obviously matters that these writings were kept, at least until copies could be made. (not one original document of the bible exists).

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sorry, I don't think I'm following what you're saying here.

For example, I believe Paul wrote the book of Romans under inspiration (or revelation).
He isn't claiming to be translating.
and yes, copies were made before the original wore out.
and these copies can be read by people who are familiar with ancient Greek.

that looks very different to me than the situation with Joseph and the book of Abraham.
He is claiming to be translating, though maybe the LDS position now is that it wasn't a translation like we think of today.
and there are not lots of copies of the papyrus he was working from, such that a single fire was able to destroy the only known papyrus.
so, the text of the book cannot be read by people who would have some knowledge of ancient Egyptian.

He is the way said:

I have always filled out the form for two reasons 1 to indicate where the donation is to go and 2 so I can compare at the end of the year to see that it is correct. I don't know if there are people who do not fill out the form.

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at this point, I think it's safe to say that anonymous giving is not allowed by the LDS Church.

so, putting it all together, as I remember it:

we were talking about the idea that "eternal life is a free gift from God".

my impression of LDS teaching is that eternal life (exaltation) requires certain activities to be done in a temple, which requires a temple recommend.

a successful Temple recommend interview requires adherence to a long list of rules,
at least one of which involves actual payments of significant amounts of money. and careful records of these payments are kept by the church.

my impression at this point is that eternal life according to LDS teaching is not free.
but I'm open to hearing additional evidence and reasonings.

He is the way said:

I don't believe there was a complete apostasy, but I do believe that was an apostasy:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:1 - 2)

1 BUT there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

(New Testament | Acts 20:29 - 31)

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

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yes, I agree there was an apostasy.

I don't think, though, that the apostasy was such that all references to the book of Abraham were destroyed,
and most of the New testament documents were copied in a sloppy or deliberately deceitful manner.

as I think I've talked about before, the people who were picking out the canon
(deciding which documents would become what we call the Bible)
were still deciding as late as 380* ad or so.
was the Bible essentially picked out by apostates?


*from a Catholic perspective, it wasn't official until the council of Trent, post Reformation.

Ironhold said:

What you're describing is a situation I've never heard of happening.

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thanks for the info!

so in practice, even if an LDS did mail their tithe in anonymously as cash,
it's very likely that during the temple recommend interview the bishop would connect the dots and figure out that the large amounts of cash were coming from that person.

so in practice, not anonymous.

Leaf473 said:

at this point, I think it's safe to say that anonymous giving is not allowed by the LDS Church.

so, putting it all together, as I remember it:

we were talking about the idea that "eternal life is a free gift from God".

my impression of LDS teaching is that eternal life (exaltation) requires certain activities to be done in a temple, which requires a temple recommend.

a successful Temple recommend interview requires adherence to a long list of rules,
at least one of which involves actual payments of significant amounts of money. and careful records of these payments are kept by the church.

my impression at this point is that eternal life according to LDS teaching is not free.
but I'm open to hearing additional evidence and reasonings.

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As I said: " I don't believe it would be possible to prevent anyone from giving anonymously if they wanted to."

Eternal life is NOT free. Grace is free for the obedient:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Eternal life is only for those who LOVE Jesus Christ and keep His commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

No where in the Bible does it say eternal life is free.

Leaf473 said:

yes, I agree there was an apostasy.

I don't think, though, that the apostasy was such that all references to the book of Abraham were destroyed,
and most of the New testament documents were copied in a sloppy or deliberately deceitful manner.

as I think I've talked about before, the people who were picking out the canon
(deciding which documents would become what we call the Bible)
were still deciding as late as 380* ad or so.
was the Bible essentially picked out by apostates?


*from a Catholic perspective, it wasn't official until the council of Trent, post Reformation.

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I have not butted in, but have been following the conversation as a lot of people have followed it---according to the numbers. There was an apostasy of sorts. It was by a few individuals, and it is stated so in the scriptures, just not using those words.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Though a quote from the OT---this is written to believers who have gone back or still cling to, unchristian things and are asked to come out of this practice. There are several such statements throughout the bible that this was occurring as far back as the time of the disciples. It is not a whole scale apostasy. There was, of course, a wholesale loss of the ability to have the scriptures during the dark ages. This was not apostasy by the general laity. The scriptures were hidden from them, chained in their monasteries where only Priests could read them and "tell" the people what they said. But the scriptures themselves were still very carefully guarded and if you read up on the Waldenses and others, God has always maintained a remnant who guarded His word. They very carefully copied it. God did not let His word be destroyed or corrupted. Luther was not the first to rebel, there were several before him and they all were Priests who had read the word and realized it was being taught wrong---not that the word was being corrupted, but taught wrong.
Satan is very sneaky and underhanded and always has a bit of truth to his lies---that is what makes them so believable. Unless one is grounded in the scriptures, it is easy to be lead astray. And saying that what we view as authority is all wrong and not true---is the first thing that a cultish leader will do. Cut those strings of authority and insert his own rules. Satan's way from the beginning. God is not to believed---His way is not the best---he has a better idea and so he led astray 1/3 of the angels and Adam and Eve---thou shalt not truly die---God doesn't mean what He says---I know better. That is exactly what JS did.

mmksparbud said:

I have not butted in, but have been following the conversation as a lot of people have followed it---according to the numbers. There was an apostasy of sorts. It was by a few individuals, and it is stated so in the scriptures, just not using those words.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Though a quote from the OT---this is written to believers who have gone back or still cling to, unchristian things and are asked to come out of this practice. There are several such statements throughout the bible that this was occurring as far back as the time of the disciples. It is not a whole scale apostasy. There was, of course, a wholesale loss of the ability to have the scriptures during the dark ages. This was not apostasy by the general laity. The scriptures were hidden from them, chained in their monasteries where only Priests could read them and "tell" the people what they said. But the scriptures themselves were still very carefully guarded and if you read up on the Waldenses and others, God has always maintained a remnant who guarded His word. They very carefully copied it. God did not let His word be destroyed or corrupted. Luther was not the first to rebel, there were several before him and they all were Priests who had read the word and realized it was being taught wrong---not that the word was being corrupted, but taught wrong.
Satan is very sneaky and underhanded and always has a bit of truth to his lies---that is what makes them so believable. Unless one is grounded in the scriptures, it is easy to be lead astray. And saying that what we view as authority is all wrong and not true---is the first thing that a cultish leader will do. Cut those strings of authority and insert his own rules. Satan's way from the beginning. God is not to believed---His way is not the best---he has a better idea and so he led astray 1/3 of the angels and Adam and Eve---thou shalt not truly die---God doesn't mean what He says---I know better. That is exactly what JS did.

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You talk about believers, there are a lot of people who believe in Jesus Christ that are NOT saints. There are devils that believe. There are also people who's beliefs are true. We know who they are:

(New Testament | Matthew 7:16 - 20)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

There are those who do NOT believe that good fruits are necessary. Stay away from them.

He is the way said:

You talk about believers, there are a lot of people who believe in Jesus Christ that are NOT saints. There are devils that believe. There are also people who's beliefs are true. We know who they are:

(New Testament | Matthew 7:16 - 20)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

There are those who do NOT believe that good fruits are necessary. Stay away from them.

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True believers do not lead away from the truth of the scriptures. They lead them to His word for it is His word and it is His truth---not the truth of those who say they are His---it is His truth and it has been kept safe by Him throughout history. He has never let it be corrupted. It is Jesus that saves and not any man. Jesus saves, through His word that He gave us to direct us. The fruit of His Hoy Spirit is that His followers follow His word and not the believes of a private interpreter of that word.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

No other name----JS does not save even though your prophet said no one in this dispensation will be saved unless he says so----it is a lie, and that is proof enough that he is a false prophet.

mmksparbud said:

True believers do not lead away from the truth of the scriptures. They lead them to His word for it is His word and it is His truth---not the truth of those who say they are His---it is His truth and it has been kept safe by Him throughout history. He has never let it be corrupted. It is Jesus that saves and not any man. Jesus saves, through His word that He gave us to direct us. The fruit of His Hoy Spirit is that His followers follow His word and not the believes of a private interpreter of that word.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

No other name----JS does not save even though your prophet said no one in this dispensation will be saved unless he says so----it is a lie, and that is proof enough that he is a false prophet.

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Jesus saves those who LOVE Him and keep His commandments.

He is the way said:

Jesus saves those who LOVE Him and keep His commandments.

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They can not love whom they do not know. People who have been married for years, can find out that they never really knew the real person. People have been friends for years, and end up discovering the same thing. If you know only false information about someone, then you do not really know them and can not really love them, they are not who you think they are.

He is the way said:

As I said: " I don't believe it would be possible to prevent anyone from giving anonymously if they wanted to."

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I think that the various social structures in place as you and others have described it would make anonymous tithing impossible in practice.

Eternal life is NOT free. Grace is free for the obedient:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Eternal life is only for those who LOVE Jesus Christ and keep His commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

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that's right, live the lifestyle that the Samaritan is living, and you will live!

the Samaritan does not follow the commandments of God given through Moses, otherwise he would be called a Jewish proselytite, not a Samaritan, I think.
I also think he does not have access to the temple or its rituals.

does that sound right to you?

thus, the Samaritan achieves life not through adherence to a long list of rules,
but by choosing to live a lifestyle based on faith in who God is, what he has done and will do.

No where in the Bible does it say eternal life is free.

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well, here are some things I read in the Bible
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And several translations of a fascinating verse here:
Revelation 21:6 And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life.