Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

Contenders Edge · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Because your interpretation of Revelation 20 is wrong on so many fronts. I suspect you realize that. That s why you are papering over and ducking so many points. It conflicts with numerous Scripture which you have still to address. When are you going to address the explicit climactic detail of Revelation 19 that forbids a chronological approach. Your fight is with the Book.

You insist that it is wrong without demonstrating how I am wrong from the chapter itself, have claimed that Revelation 19 forbids a chronological approach yet nothing you have cited from that chapter forbids it, insist that the Premil position conflicts with numerous scripture but have failed to show how those scriptures you claim oppose that position and how they pertain to the events described in chapter 20, and in response to the fact that not all prophets and Apostles are given the same degree of revelation, you offer only baseless slander.

sovereigngrace · Sep 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If it had not been for the book of Revelation which teaches a thousand year intermission between this present age and eternal age to come, Premillennialism would have no basis and therefore would not exist. It is not a doctrine that is without scriptural basis as you insist it has been, but rather than just accept that Revelation 20 says what it says you demand more corroboration when the context of the chapter has provided evidence sufficient enough to bear witness to a Premil doctrine, insisting on symbolizing that which is presented in a literal context..

Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations [Gr. ethnos or Gentiles] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.”

Many Christians overlook, and consequently misunderstand, the Holy Spirit’s use of the term “the nations” in this much-debated chapter. Notwithstanding, failing to grasp this phraseology could potentially lead the Bible student into all forms of strange eschatological speculations in relation to the nature, substance and timing of the binding of Satan in this reading. In fact, understanding the meaning of the term “the nations” is the key to comprehending the rest of Revelation 20 and therefore establishing the exact location of this symbolic passage in time. The reason for stating all this emanates from the fact that the binding of Satan specifically and inextricably relates to the removal of the deception that covered “the nations” – therefore giving us a massive clue as to the correct placement of this passage in time.

Up until this passage, there is not one single reference in Scripture describing a 1,000-year reign of Christ and the saints on earth after the second coming of Christ. This fact alone would lead most fair-minded Bible students to question its placement after the Coming of Christ. Harold Hazelip rightly says, in his book ‘Revelation and the Millennium’ “The 1000 years appears nowhere in the 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,173 verses of the Bible except for 6 occurrences in 6 consecutive verses of Revelation 20:2-7. It is not good exegesis to build an entire system of eschatology, a philosophy of history, on such a highly symbolic passage, particularly when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passage of scripture.”

We can therefore confidently let Scripture locate this much-debated passage in its rightful position in history because of the wealth of New Testament passages that address the removing of the satanic blindfold from “the nations” and the subsequent enlightenment of a once overwhelmingly paganised world. Adam Clarke succinctly says, reference the phrase, “He should deceive the nations no more” that Satan would be “unable to blind men with superstition and idolatry as he had formerly done.”

Significantly, the Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek ethnos which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

Notwithstanding, the term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to exclusively manifest His glory for thousands of years before the Cro`ss. Incidentally, this differentiation is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favour of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often of used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from specifically deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Passionate Premiller Tim Warner Administrator of www.lasttrumpet.com even recognizes the interpretation of this word whilst explaining its usage in Mark 11:17, saying, “the word nations' is the Greek word 'ethnos' [from which we get 'ethnic'] which is the word normally translated 'Gentiles' in the New Testament.”

You have falsely claimed that I said there was no support for Premillennialism in the scriptures, but I have shown all the support for scripture necessary which you have persisted in rejecting and in your rejection of the text, have attributed the words thereof made easily understood to a private interpretation and therefore have made them out to be more obscure than they really are, claiming that that I have ignored other texts that you claim expose the error of Premillennialism but the texts that you have brought forth have nothing to do with the events foretold in Revelation 20 but yet claim Revelation 20 is tied to the Church age when it suggests no such thing and worst of all, you have falsely and slanderously accused me of placing the resurrection of Christ in the future in when in truth, I have never done any such thing here or on any other platform where Contender's Edge is establish, and this is all despite the fact that according to your own words, which you have refused to acknowledge, that this first resurrection also includes the dead in Christ who will be raised from the dead when Christ returns:

The OT repeatedly describes the Gentiles as being in darkness. That did not mean there were none saved. It also promised a day when the Gentiles would be enlightened. That was talking about the First Advent of Christ when Christ came as Saviour, not the second advent when Christ comes as judge. There, the long-suffering of God is completed, God's door of salvation will be finally and eternally shut, the day of salvation will be finally over. The NT repeatedly describes the enlightening of the Gentiles. The ignorance is finally lifted. How you do not see that is baffling. It seems like, your doctrine requires that you reject that great truth.

For example, Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the Gentiles éthnee, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; in him shall the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] trust.”

Romans 16:25-26 says, “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

Here is another general statement showing the removal of the ignorance.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

The nations that were once saturated in complete heathenism and gross idolatry, knowing nothing of the grace of God and the need of repentance, would now receive the Gospel through the Cross of Christ. Surely the Premillennialist would not attempt to suggest that this passage is alluding to every single person in every single nation throughout the world at that time? Nor, could they say that this reference to the “nations” (plural) was meant to encompass the natural “nation” (singular) of Israel, which up until the cross was the sole national custodian of the grace of God.

It is manifestly clear from the actual testimony of this specific reading that the Church had now entered into a new dispensation, a period in which the good news of salvation was to be offered to the Gentiles. No longer would the pagan nations of the world be drowned in complete darkness and be utterly deceived by the devil, as before. The de-blindfolding of the Gentiles (or nations) therefore unquestionably coincided with the binding of the devil’s previous extensive power; the historic defining moment being Christ’s devil defeating transaction at Calvary. Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Calvary was the central transaction that caused the Gentiles to receive the glorious Gospel of Christ. That cruel event graciously precipitated the liberation of “the (once wholly blinded) nations” causing notable hurt (as predicted in Genesis 3:15) to the plans of the devil and his once overwhelming hold upon the heathen. The purpose and effect of Christ’s dying unquestionably enabled the Gospel to spread to “the Gentiles” and allowed “the blessings of Abraham” and “the promise of the Spirit” to become a real possession of “the nations.”

Calvary is plainly advanced here as the crucial turning point in relation to God’s sovereign dealings with the Gentiles – “the nations.” It was undoubtedly the decision hour in God’s plan of salvation for mankind, in that it widened out that glorious redemptive provision to the hopelessly deluded nations. Undoubtedly, it is the Cross and not the second coming that is advanced as the crucial event that spiritually damaged the enormous sphere of the devil’s influence and caused God’s favor to directed towards “the nations.”

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the Old Testament. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Revelation 20 is saying.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does Scripture not outline that following Calvary the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ went out onto the Gentiles (ethnos)? And that while individual Gentiles can still be deceived or attacked by Satan, the collective veil that once deluded them has now been remove. Satan cannot stop the Gospel going to the nations as he once did. Since the cross, the Gospel has spread throughout the heathen nations of this world, something that never happened previous. However, this doesn't stop individuals being personally deceived.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often make sweep in general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

sovereigngrace · Sep 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You insist that it is wrong without demonstrating how I am wrong from the chapter itself, have claimed that Revelation 19 forbids a chronological approach yet nothing you have cited from that chapter forbids it, insist that the Premil position conflicts with numerous scripture but have failed to show how those scriptures you claim oppose that position and how they pertain to the events described in chapter 20, and in response to the fact that not all prophets and Apostles are given the same degree of revelation, you offer only baseless slander.

The only thing you have proven is that you have obviously no answer for what Revelation 19 says. You have avoided my posts twice. I will repost for the 3rd time:

The assignment

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

The term “the fowls of heaven” is frequently employed throughout the Old Testament to describe bird-life in general and is quite often accompanies the description “the beasts of the earth” which relates to the animal life. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel identify both with the judgment of God and with feasting upon the wicked after destruction.

This overall passage, which evidently relates to the second coming of the Lord and the awful day of God’s wrath, seems to entirely correlate with Matthew 24:27-30 and Luke 17:24-37.

Matthew records Jesus say: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The parallel passage in Luke 17:24-37 tells us: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away. The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

Every time the Gospel is faithfully preached Satan is waiting in the wings to steal that Word so that you do not apply it to your heart and it perfect. Every truth is dangerous to him because it encourages the Saints, exalts Christ and exposes him.

Revelation 19:17-18 outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.

Also, they depend wholly on one flawed opinion, which if taken away, decimates the belief, that of Revelation 20 being chronological with Revelation 19. Take that away and it falls like a deck of cards.

Those of us who were Premil could not fight with Scripture any more, we had to impress the climactic nature of Christ's return. No wicked survive it. Sin, sinners, corruption and decay, crying and dying are banished from the new earth.

The execution

The extent of that supper is revealed in verses 19-21, saying, “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

loipoy = remaining ones or those left behind.

This is pretty comprehensive to me. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7). Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added to reinforce to the wholesale nature of the destruction.

Timtofly · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations [Gr. ethnos or Gentiles] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.”

Many Christians overlook, and consequently misunderstand, the Holy Spirit’s use of the term “the nations” in this much-debated chapter. Notwithstanding, failing to grasp this phraseology could potentially lead the Bible student into all forms of strange eschatological speculations in relation to the nature, substance and timing of the binding of Satan in this reading. In fact, understanding the meaning of the term “the nations” is the key to comprehending the rest of Revelation 20 and therefore establishing the exact location of this symbolic passage in time. The reason for stating all this emanates from the fact that the binding of Satan specifically and inextricably relates to the removal of the deception that covered “the nations” – therefore giving us a massive clue as to the correct placement of this passage in time.

Up until this passage, there is not one single reference in Scripture describing a 1,000-year reign of Christ and the saints on earth after the second coming of Christ. This fact alone would lead most fair-minded Bible students to question its placement after the Coming of Christ. Harold Hazelip rightly says, in his book ‘Revelation and the Millennium’ “The 1000 years appears nowhere in the 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,173 verses of the Bible except for 6 occurrences in 6 consecutive verses of Revelation 20:2-7. It is not good exegesis to build an entire system of eschatology, a philosophy of history, on such a highly symbolic passage, particularly when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passage of scripture.”

We can therefore confidently let Scripture locate this much-debated passage in its rightful position in history because of the wealth of New Testament passages that address the removing of the satanic blindfold from “the nations” and the subsequent enlightenment of a once overwhelmingly paganised world. Adam Clarke succinctly says, reference the phrase, “He should deceive the nations no more” that Satan would be “unable to blind men with superstition and idolatry as he had formerly done.”

Significantly, the Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek ethnos which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

Notwithstanding, the term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to exclusively manifest His glory for thousands of years before the Cro`ss. Incidentally, this differentiation is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favour of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often of used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from specifically deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Passionate Premiller Tim Warner Administrator of www.lasttrumpet.com even recognizes the interpretation of this word whilst explaining its usage in Mark 11:17, saying, “the word nations' is the Greek word 'ethnos' [from which we get 'ethnic'] which is the word normally translated 'Gentiles' in the New Testament.”

The OT repeatedly describes the Gentiles as being in darkness. That did not mean there were none saved. It also promised a day when the Gentiles would be enlightened. That was talking about the First Advent of Christ when Christ came as Saviour, not the second advent when Christ comes as judge. There, the long-suffering of God is completed, God's door of salvation will be finally and eternally shut, the day of salvation will be finally over. The NT repeatedly describes the enlightening of the Gentiles. The ignorance is finally lifted. How you do not see that is baffling. It seems like, your doctrine requires that you reject that great truth.

For example, Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies, relating to the removing of this global deception upon the Gentiles éthnee, together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. He declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]; in him shall the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] trust.”

Romans 16:25-26 says, “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

Here is another general statement showing the removal of the ignorance.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

The nations that were once saturated in complete heathenism and gross idolatry, knowing nothing of the grace of God and the need of repentance, would now receive the Gospel through the Cross of Christ. Surely the Premillennialist would not attempt to suggest that this passage is alluding to every single person in every single nation throughout the world at that time? Nor, could they say that this reference to the “nations” (plural) was meant to encompass the natural “nation” (singular) of Israel, which up until the cross was the sole national custodian of the grace of God.

It is manifestly clear from the actual testimony of this specific reading that the Church had now entered into a new dispensation, a period in which the good news of salvation was to be offered to the Gentiles. No longer would the pagan nations of the world be drowned in complete darkness and be utterly deceived by the devil, as before. The de-blindfolding of the Gentiles (or nations) therefore unquestionably coincided with the binding of the devil’s previous extensive power; the historic defining moment being Christ’s devil defeating transaction at Calvary. Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Calvary was the central transaction that caused the Gentiles to receive the glorious Gospel of Christ. That cruel event graciously precipitated the liberation of “the (once wholly blinded) nations” causing notable hurt (as predicted in Genesis 3:15) to the plans of the devil and his once overwhelming hold upon the heathen. The purpose and effect of Christ’s dying unquestionably enabled the Gospel to spread to “the Gentiles” and allowed “the blessings of Abraham” and “the promise of the Spirit” to become a real possession of “the nations.”

Calvary is plainly advanced here as the crucial turning point in relation to God’s sovereign dealings with the Gentiles – “the nations.” It was undoubtedly the decision hour in God’s plan of salvation for mankind, in that it widened out that glorious redemptive provision to the hopelessly deluded nations. Undoubtedly, it is the Cross and not the second coming that is advanced as the crucial event that spiritually damaged the enormous sphere of the devil’s influence and caused God’s favor to directed towards “the nations.”

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the Old Testament. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Revelation 20 is saying.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness snow? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does Scripture not outline that following Calvary the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ went out onto the Gentiles (ethnos)? And that while individual Gentiles can still be deceived or attacked by Satan, the collective veil that once deluded them has now been remove. Satan cannot stop the Gospel going to the nations as he once did. Since the cross, the Gospel has spread throughout the heathen nations of this world, something that never happened previous. However, this doesn't stop individuals being personally deceived.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Scripture often make sweep in general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

Why deny God an even greater work among the nations? A Sovereign God showed John an even better world than the current one. Why deny that? Why drag the nations back a step?

Douggg · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

It doesn't say two resurrections the way you identified them.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is for the martyred great tribulation saints. It is called the first resurrection (of the 1000 years) which those persons will reign with Jesus during the thousand years.

The resurrection at the end of the 1000 years is for everyone who did not par-take in the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:15-18, nor the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

(1) the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonas4:15-18 - of them who had died in Christ and them who are alive at the time, unknown day, but before the beginning of the Day of the Lord which lasts forever.

(2) the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs, Revelation 20:4-6, at the beginning of the 1000 years of Jesus's reign here on this earth after He returns in Revelation 19 at the end of the 7 years.

(3) the resurrection of everyone else [ who did not partake in (1) or (2) ] who ever lived, both righteous and unrighteous (which you are calling the wicked). At the conclusion of the 1000 years, at the Great White Throne judgment.

_______________________________________________________________

Everyone who has ever lived fits into one of those three events. But in only one.

Douggg · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away.

You missed it!

In Matthew 24, there are two messages in that chapter, one set of verses for the Jews. And another set of verses to Christians.

Luke 17 about the eagles be gathered together is different than Matthew 24:32-51 (the message to Christians about knowing the season, and to be watching for Jesus to come for the rapture).

The language is similar between Luke 17 and Matthew 24:32-51, but in Matthew 24:32-51, there are no eagles gathered following the one taken one left verses. Instead the message is to watch.

The reason is that Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how to avoid having to go through the great tribulation.

Differently, the message in Matthew 24:15-31 is to Jews who will have to go through the great tribulation. And to save their physical life, they will have to flee to the mountains right away. Otherwise, they will be rounded up and subject to persecution. The eagles gathered is in Matthew 24:28.

__________________________________________________________

Revelation 19:17-18 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:17-20, 7 years after the Gog/Magog event.

sovereigngrace · Sep 15, 2020

Douggg said:
You missed it!

In Matthew 24, there are two messages in that chapter, one set of verses for the Jews. And another set of verses to Christians.

Luke 17 about the eagles be gathered together is different than Matthew 24:32-51 (the message to Christians about knowing the season, and to be watching for Jesus to come for the rapture).

The language is similar between Luke 17 and Matthew 24:32-51, but in Matthew 24:32-51, there are no eagles gathered following the one taken one left verses. Instead the message is to watch.

The reason is that Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how to avoid having to go through the great tribulation.

Differently, the message in Matthew 24:15-31 is to Jews who will have to go through the great tribulation. And to save their physical life, they will have to flee to the mountains right away. Otherwise, they will be rounded up and subject to persecution. The eagles gathered is in Matthew 24:28.

__________________________________________________________

Revelation 19:17-18 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:17-20, 7 years after the Gog/Magog event.

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid, and runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27: “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. … But now are they many members, yet but one body. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”

No one could surely fail to notice the absolute wholeness of this body and its singular nature. Such a unitary representation as the body is advanced to in some small way signify the cohesive intimacy that there is between the saints in the Old and the New Testament and the whole unity between the Jew and Gentile in Christ. This was perfectly secured through our Lord’s great atoning work on the cross. The human body, so carefully fitted together, is presented in Scripture as a beautiful picture of the mystical union between Christ and His people throughout the ages. By virtue of that union, the New Testament saints enjoy spiritual unity and communion with the Old Testament believers.

The instrument God uses to bind the believer to Christ is the Holy Spirit. The true believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is therefore joined to Christ through the work of the Spirit. The Bible says, “He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (I Corinthians 6:17). Every believer united to Christ is thus united to His brethren by the Spirit, all being members of the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:16 says, “the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth.”

The Holy Spirit draws Jew and Gentile alike to Jesus and into His one and only body the Church.

Romans 12:5 tells us: “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

Colossians 3:11&15 agrees, saying, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all … ye are called in one body.”

Galatians 3:28-29 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Scripture couldn’t be clearer. There is no allowance for ethnic difference within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, colors or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.

Dispensationalists do their best to divide the people of God, when repeated New Testament Scripture seeks to unite them as one. David Rudolph articulates their reasoning: “But is the male–female distinction erased in Christ? On the contrary, Paul distinguishes between men and women in his congregations. The created order with respect to “male and female” is not overturned in Christ. This raises an important question: if in Paul's thought the third pair (male and female) is not erased, why should it be concluded that the first pair (Jew and Greek) is erased?” (Zionism in Pauline Literature).

This reasoning is weak and just doesn’t add up. In order to justify their theology of apartheid, they are forced to distort the sacred text. No one is saying that people lose their ethnic status, societal status, gender status, when they come to Jesus. Paul is simply highlighting the fact that none of these contrasting groups carry any special favor, religious privilege or spiritual entitlement on the grounds of their respective identities. No, “in Christ” we are all equal and all one. Dispensationalists are imputing something into the text that doesn’t exist. They elevate Jews to a place that the New Testament doesn’t allow and then argue for their uniqueness and distinction in the New Testament era. This totally wrong!

Ephesians 4:4-6 affirms, “there is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Dispensationalists would give us the impression we are dealing with two different God’s – Yahweh in the Old Testament and Jesus in the new. But that is not true. You cannot divorce Yahweh from Jesus any more that you can divorce an Old Testament saint from a New Testament saint. The people of God, believing Jews and Gentiles, Old Testament and New, have all drank of the same spiritual drink – the “living water” of the Spirit – that has emanated from Christ the Rock.

I Corinthians 10: 17-18 contends, “For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?”

The Old Testament saints were found “in Christ” having the “spirit of Christ” within them. 1 Peter 1:7-11 confirms this. As in the picture of the figurative spiritual house, Paul uses near identical language to describe the spiritual body of Christ throughout time. He does so in order to express the beautifully unity between the Old and New Testament saints.

sovereigngrace · Sep 15, 2020

Douggg said:
It doesn't say two resurrections the way you identified them.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is for the martyred great tribulation saints. It is called the first resurrection (of the 1000 years) which those persons will reign with Jesus during the thousand years.

The resurrection at the end of the 1000 years is for everyone who did not par-take in the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:15-18, nor the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints.

(1) the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonas4:15-18 - of them who had died in Christ and them who are alive at the time, unknown day, but before the beginning of the Day of the Lord which lasts forever.

(2) the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs, Revelation 20:4-6, at the beginning of the 1000 years of Jesus's reign here on this earth after He returns in Revelation 19 at the end of the 7 years.

(3) the resurrection of everyone else [ who did not partake in (1) or (2) ] who ever lived, both righteous and unrighteous (which you are calling the wicked). At the conclusion of the 1000 years, at the Great White Throne judgment.

_______________________________________________________________

Everyone who has ever lived fits into one of those three events. But in only one.

What are you talking about? Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

Douggg · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
What are you talking about? Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

Jesus is the first fruits, 1Corinthian15:23. But what is your point?

I gave all three circumstances regarding the resurrection of the dead, and the timing.

Douggg · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid, and runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27: “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. … But now are they many members, yet but one body. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”

No one could surely fail to notice the absolute wholeness of this body and its singular nature. Such a unitary representation as the body is advanced to in some small way signify the cohesive intimacy that there is between the saints in the Old and the New Testament and the whole unity between the Jew and Gentile in Christ. This was perfectly secured through our Lord’s great atoning work on the cross. The human body, so carefully fitted together, is presented in Scripture as a beautiful picture of the mystical union between Christ and His people throughout the ages. By virtue of that union, the New Testament saints enjoy spiritual unity and communion with the Old Testament believers.

The instrument God uses to bind the believer to Christ is the Holy Spirit. The true believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is therefore joined to Christ through the work of the Spirit. The Bible says, “He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (I Corinthians 6:17). Every believer united to Christ is thus united to His brethren by the Spirit, all being members of the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:16 says, “the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth.”

The Holy Spirit draws Jew and Gentile alike to Jesus and into His one and only body the Church.

Romans 12:5 tells us: “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

Colossians 3:11&15 agrees, saying, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all … ye are called in one body.”

Galatians 3:28-29 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Scripture couldn’t be clearer. There is no allowance for ethnic difference within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, colors or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.

Dispensationalists do their best to divide the people of God, when repeated New Testament Scripture seeks to unite them as one. David Rudolph articulates their reasoning: “But is the male–female distinction erased in Christ? On the contrary, Paul distinguishes between men and women in his congregations. The created order with respect to “male and female” is not overturned in Christ. This raises an important question: if in Paul's thought the third pair (male and female) is not erased, why should it be concluded that the first pair (Jew and Greek) is erased?” (Zionism in Pauline Literature).

This reasoning is weak and just doesn’t add up. In order to justify their theology of apartheid, they are forced to distort the sacred text. No one is saying that people lose their ethnic status, societal status, gender status, when they come to Jesus. Paul is simply highlighting the fact that none of these contrasting groups carry any special favor, religious privilege or spiritual entitlement on the grounds of their respective identities. No, “in Christ” we are all equal and all one. Dispensationalists are imputing something into the text that doesn’t exist. They elevate Jews to a place that the New Testament doesn’t allow and then argue for their uniqueness and distinction in the New Testament era. This totally wrong!

Ephesians 4:4-6 affirms, “there is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Dispensationalists would give us the impression we are dealing with two different God’s – Yahweh in the Old Testament and Jesus in the new. But that is not true. You cannot divorce Yahweh from Jesus any more that you can divorce an Old Testament saint from a New Testament saint. The people of God, believing Jews and Gentiles, Old Testament and New, have all drank of the same spiritual drink – the “living water” of the Spirit – that has emanated from Christ the Rock.

I Corinthians 10: 17-18 contends, “For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?”

The Old Testament saints were found “in Christ” having the “spirit of Christ” within them. 1 Peter 1:7-11 confirms this. As in the picture of the figurative spiritual house, Paul uses near identical language to describe the spiritual body of Christ throughout time. He does so in order to express the beautifully unity between the Old and New Testament saints.

You have strayed off into another universe.

Why don't you just quickly read through again Matthew 24:15-31, it is to Jews, them living in Judea at the time. The eagles gathering are in that set of verses. As is the great tribulation.

Then read through again Matthew 24:32-51, the eagles gathering is not in that set of verses; it is to Christians, to be watching for the rapture to take place in order to avoid having to go through the great tribulation. It corresponds to watching in Luke 21:34-36.

Just read through the verses, and not argue with me so much. I am trying to show you something. The first set is to the Jews. And the second set is to Christians. Jesus is saying what both groups should do.

Contenders Edge · Sep 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Many Christians overlook, and consequently misunderstand, the Holy Spirit’s use of the term “the nations” in this much-debated chapter. Notwithstanding, failing to grasp this phraseology could potentially lead the Bible student into all forms of strange eschatological speculations in relation to the nature, substance and timing of the binding of Satan in this reading. In fact, understanding the meaning of the term “the nations” is the key to comprehending the rest of Revelation 20 and therefore establishing the exact location of this symbolic passage in time. The reason for stating all this emanates from the fact that the binding of Satan specifically and inextricably relates to the removal of the deception that covered “the nations” – therefore giving us a massive clue as to the correct placement of this passage in time.

Up until this passage, there is not one single reference in Scripture describing a 1,000-year reign of Christ and the saints on earth after the second coming of Christ. This fact alone would lead most fair-minded Bible students to question its placement after the Coming of Christ. Harold Hazelip rightly says, in his book ‘Revelation and the Millennium’ “The 1000 years appears nowhere in the 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,173 verses of the Bible except for 6 occurrences in 6 consecutive verses of Revelation 20:2-7. It is not good exegesis to build an entire system of eschatology, a philosophy of history, on such a highly symbolic passage, particularly when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passage of scripture.”

We can therefore confidently let Scripture locate this much-debated passage in its rightful position in history because of the wealth of New Testament passages that address the removing of the satanic blindfold from “the nations” and the subsequent enlightenment of a once overwhelmingly paganised world. Adam Clarke succinctly says, reference the phrase, “He should deceive the nations no more” that Satan would be “unable to blind men with superstition and idolatry as he had formerly done.”

Significantly, the Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek ethnos which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

Notwithstanding, the term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to exclusively manifest His glory for thousands of years before the Cro`ss. Incidentally, this differentiation is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favour of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often of used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from specifically deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Passionate Premiller Tim Warner Administrator of www.lasttrumpet.com even recognizes the interpretation of this word whilst explaining its usage in Mark 11:17, saying, “the word nations' is the Greek word 'ethnos' [from which we get 'ethnic'] which is the word normally translated 'Gentiles' in the New Testament.”

But in the case of Revelation 20, the KJV translators chose to use the word "nations" instead of Gentiles. Since ethnos is the word used to define "nations" and "Gentiles", how the translators decide when to use the word "Gentile" or "nation" probably depends upon the context in which the word ethnos is used, but ethnos does not necessarily strictly mean "Gentile" as the word can also be applied in a more generalized sense to describe collectively all nations and all people (Jew and Gentile)

But even if the translators had used "Gentiles" instead of "nations" in their translation of Revelation 20, that still does not change the fact that Revelation 20 is a foretelling of things to come, not things that have already come to pass as it is included with, as put forth in the introductory verse of Revelation, "things that must shortly come to pass." Aside from the first 3 chapters, the book of Revelation is about what is yet to come, not about what already is or has been. The only time the book of Revelation has ever taken us back into the past is in the first five verses of Revelation 12 in order for us to understand what is to take place in the future.

How can Satan's imprisonment in the abyss have already taken place if it is included among the "things that must shortly come to pass"? How can Revelation 20 possibly be about the intra-Advent period, when all it presents has to do with "things that must shortly come to pass"?

Satan cannot already be in the abyss if it is a thing yet to come as the book of Revelation states.
Revelation 20 cannot in any way be speaking of the intra-Advent (I am assuming the present Church-age) if the events pertaining to the chapter if they are among the things yet to come, as, once again, the book of Revelation states in its introductory verse.

sovereigngrace said:
The nations that were once saturated in complete heathenism and gross idolatry, knowing nothing of the grace of God and the need of repentance, would now receive the Gospel through the Cross of Christ. Surely the Premillennialist would not attempt to suggest that this passage is alluding to every single person in every single nation throughout the world at that time? Nor, could they say that this reference to the “nations” (plural) was meant to encompass the natural “nation” (singular) of Israel, which up until the cross was the sole national custodian of the grace of God.

No, we would not allude to that extreme of a position, and we would not claim that a plurality of nations is exclusively speaking of the nation of Israel, but rather any general reference to "nations" would no doubt include Israel.

sovereigngrace said:
it is the Cross and not the second coming that is advanced as the crucial event that spiritually damaged the enormous sphere of the devil’s influence and caused God’s favor to directed towards “the nations.”

But it is the second coming of Christ that eliminates the influence of Satan from the earth altogether. But every soul that comes to Christ does damage to the influence of Satan in the world which is why he has fought, fights, and will continue to fight as hard as he can to hold captive, by various means, as many souls as he can.

sovereigngrace said:
Does this mean there is no darkness snow? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

That darkness is destined to increase until the return of our Lord. Generalities do not necessarily present specifics and because Revelation 20 does foretell specific events, it cannot be called a generality.

sovereigngrace said:
And that while individual Gentiles can still be deceived or attacked by Satan, the collective veil that once deluded them has now been remove. Satan cannot stop the Gospel going to the nations as he once did. Since the cross, the Gospel has spread throughout the heathen nations of this world, something that never happened previous. However, this doesn't stop individuals being personally deceived.

While no doubt the God of Israel is more widely known to the Gentiles than ever before because of the cross, that does not mean that Satan does not continue to keep as many blinded to the truth of the Gospel as possible; that is not at all intended to diminish the power and authority that Christ has over Satan, but simply stating the fact that we are still at war with the adversary for the souls of men which will continue on until he is cast forever into the Lake of Fire.

sovereigngrace · Sep 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But in the case of Revelation 20, the KJV translators chose to use the word "nations" instead of Gentiles. Since ethnos is the word used to define "nations" and "Gentiles", how the translators decide when to use the word "Gentile" or "nation" probably depends upon the context in which the word ethnos is used, but ethnos does not necessarily strictly mean "Gentile" as the word can also be applied in a more generalized sense to describe collectively all nations and all people (Jew and Gentile)

But even if the translators had used "Gentiles" instead of "nations" in their translation of Revelation 20, that still does not change the fact that Revelation 20 is a foretelling of things to come, not things that have already come to pass as it is included with, as put forth in the introductory verse of Revelation, "things that must shortly come to pass." Aside from the first 3 chapters, the book of Revelation is about what is yet to come, not about what already is or has been. The only time the book of Revelation has ever taken us back into the past is in the first five verses of Revelation 12 in order for us to understand what is to take place in the future.

How can Satan's imprisonment in the abyss have already taken place if it is included among the "things that must shortly come to pass"? How can Revelation 20 possibly be about the intra-Advent period, when all it presents has to do with "things that must shortly come to pass"?

Satan cannot already be in the abyss if it is a thing yet to come as the book of Revelation states.
Revelation 20 cannot in any way be speaking of the intra-Advent (I am assuming the present Church-age) if the events pertaining to the chapter if they are among the things yet to come, as, once again, the book of Revelation states in its introductory verse.

No, we would not allude to that extreme of a position, and we would not claim that a plurality of nations is exclusively speaking of the nation of Israel, but rather any general reference to "nations" would no doubt include Israel.

But it is the second coming of Christ that eliminates the influence of Satan from the earth altogether. But every soul that comes to Christ does damage to the influence of Satan in the world which is why he has fought, fights, and will continue to fight as hard as he can to hold captive, by various means, as many souls as he can.

That darkness is destined to increase until the return of our Lord. Generalities do not necessarily present specifics and because Revelation 20 does foretell specific events, it cannot be called a generality.

While no doubt the God of Israel is more widely known to the Gentiles than ever before because of the cross, that does not mean that Satan does not continue to keep as many blinded to the truth of the Gospel as possible; that is not at all intended to diminish the power and authority that Christ has over Satan, but simply stating the fact that we are still at war with the adversary for the souls of men which will continue on until he is cast forever into the Lake of Fire.

My last post actually addresses and totally rebuts everything you are saying here. I refer you back to it.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The only thing you have proven is that you have obviously no answer for what Revelation 19 says. You have avoided my posts twice. I will repost for the 3rd time:

I believe I already answered it once. There is nothing in Revelation 19 that discredits Premil doctrine. Christ returns and destroys the wicked but that, in and of itself, gives no refutation to Premil eschatology. I will not respond to it a third time knowing that my answer is going to be the same and you will probably be reposting it again like a broken record.

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.

I do not see how this reinforces the Amillennial position.

sovereigngrace said:
Also, they depend wholly on one flawed opinion, which if taken away, decimates the belief, that of Revelation 20 being chronological with Revelation 19. Take that away and it falls like a deck of cards.

There is nothing to suggest that it isn't chronological. Contextually speaking, the two chapters are tied together.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
My last post actually addresses and totally rebuts everything you are saying here. I refer you back to it.

If your last post address and refutes everything I am saying here, then why bother responding to it, knowing that my answers are going to be the same?

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
I believe I already answered it once. There is nothing in Revelation 19 that discredits Premil doctrine. Christ returns and destroys the wicked but that, in and of itself, gives no refutation to Premil eschatology. I will not respond to it a third time knowing that my answer is going to be the same and you will probably be reposting it again like a broken record.

Please give me the link to your direct and detailed response to Revelation 19.

I do not see how this reinforces the Amillennial position.

There is nothing to suggest that it isn't chronological. Contextually speaking, the two chapters are tied together.

Ok. So I will await proper rebuttals from you. It seems like you have no rebuttals for Amil apart from denying the obvious.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But it is the second coming of Christ that eliminates the influence of Satan from the earth altogether.

That is simply not true. In your teaching, Satan's wickedness is just temporarily put on hold on your millennium is completed. The kingdom that you anticipate is a sin-curse, goat-infested, death blighted fiasco. We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale supposedly submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Sadly, this is all done with Christ at the helm. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

So much for the perfect pristine paradise of unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ Premil millennium!!!

Scripture would indicate that Satan and his devils remain in that state of restraint until prior to the end where they will be released to wreak havoc upon the nations (ethnos).

Where do these billions of Satanists come from who overrun your future millennium if the earth is all Christian? Do not Premils try to portray this age as some type of paradise on earth? It doesn't look like that to me.

That darkness is destined to increase until the return of our Lord. Generalities do not necessarily present specifics and because Revelation 20 does foretell specific events, it cannot be called a generality.

You are not dealing with any of the texts. I wonder why? Multiple Scripture reinforce the Amil understanding of Rev 20.

While no doubt the God of Israel is more widely known to the Gentiles than ever before because of the cross, that does not mean that Satan does not continue to keep as many blinded to the truth of the Gospel as possible; that is not at all intended to diminish the power and authority that Christ has over Satan, but simply stating the fact that we are still at war with the adversary for the souls of men which will continue on until he is cast forever into the Lake of Fire.

Satan is spiritual curtailed in a spiritual prison. That is the import of Rev 20. This correlates with numerous NT Scripture. Sadly, you do not accept and believe the elementary hermeneutical principle of corroboration. Once you take that out of the road, all we are seeing is your private interpretation of Rev 20. Basically, that allows you make Scripture saw whatever you want.

Imprisonment and chains

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou sees tthe naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine ownflesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Are these bands that restrict the wicked literal chains? Of course not!

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Please give me the link to your direct and detailed response to Revelation 19.

Ok. So I will await proper rebuttals from you. It seems like you have no rebuttals for Amil apart from denying the obvious.

You are right in that I had not yet previously answered your claims regarding Revelation 19 despite thinking for some reason that I had already done so. An oversight on my part, but what is important is that I have given an answer to your claims regarding that chapter.

And I have already given a rebuttal to your claim that Revelation chapters 19 and 20 are not in chronological order and that rebuttal is: There is nothing contextually suggesting that the two chapters are not in chronological order. You have not been able to show me anything from the text of either chapter to prove otherwise.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You are right in that I had not yet previously answered your claims regarding Revelation 19 despite thinking for some reason that I had already done so. An oversight on my part, but what is important is that I have given an answer to your claims regarding that chapter.

And I have already given a rebuttal to your claim that Revelation chapters 19 and 20 are not in chronological order and that rebuttal is: There is nothing contextually suggesting that the two chapters are not in chronological order. You have not been able to show me anything from the text of either chapter to prove otherwise.

That is not right. Rev 19 could not be more climactic. Christ is coming is like a thief. The destruction is sudden (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-13). It is also total for the wicked (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 19:11-19). The wicked are destroyed from His very presence.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 any clearer: “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming firetaking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 6:13-17 records: “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, andhide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 19:11-16 mirrors this passage, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Rev 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.

Timtofly · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is simply not true. In your teaching, Satan's wickedness is just temporarily put on hold on your millennium is completed. The kingdom that you anticipate is a sin-curse, goat-infested, death blighted fiasco. We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale supposedly submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Sadly, this is all done with Christ at the helm. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

So much for the perfect pristine paradise of unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ Premil millennium!!!

Scripture would indicate that Satan and his devils remain in that state of restraint until prior to the end where they will be released to wreak havoc upon the nations (ethnos).

Where do these billions of Satanists come from who overrun your future millennium if the earth is all Christian? Do not Premils try to portray this age as some type of paradise on earth? It doesn't look like that to me.

You are not dealing with any of the texts. I wonder why? Multiple Scripture reinforce the Amil understanding of Rev 20.

Satan is spiritual curtailed in a spiritual prison. That is the import of Rev 20. This correlates with numerous NT Scripture. Sadly, you do not accept and believe the elementary hermeneutical principle of corroboration. Once you take that out of the road, all we are seeing is your private interpretation of Rev 20. Basically, that allows you make Scripture saw whatever you want.

Imprisonment and chains

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou sees tthe naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine ownflesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Are these bands that restrict the wicked literal chains? Of course not!

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

Why blame God’s Word about Satan's rebellion? Is there still not the same rebellion in your current age of enlightenment? Why has your theology failed God?

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is simply not true. In your teaching, Satan's wickedness is just temporarily put on hold on your millennium is completed. The kingdom that you anticipate is a sin-curse, goat-infested, death blighted fiasco. We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale supposedly submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Sadly, this is all done with Christ at the helm. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

So much for the perfect pristine paradise of unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ Premil millennium!!!

Scripture would indicate that Satan and his devils remain in that state of restraint until prior to the end where they will be released to wreak havoc upon the nations (ethnos).

Where do these billions of Satanists come from who overrun your future millennium if the earth is all Christian? Do not Premils try to portray this age as some type of paradise on earth? It doesn't look like that to me.

You are not dealing with any of the texts. I wonder why? Multiple Scripture reinforce the Amil understanding of Rev 20.

Satan is spiritual curtailed in a spiritual prison. That is the import of Rev 20. This correlates with numerous NT Scripture. Sadly, you do not accept and believe the elementary hermeneutical principle of corroboration. Once you take that out of the road, all we are seeing is your private interpretation of Rev 20. Basically, that allows you make Scripture saw whatever you want.

Imprisonment and chains

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou sees tthe naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine ownflesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Are these bands that restrict the wicked literal chains? Of course not!

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

This all looks like things that I have already addressed in previous posts; the vast majority of which I had addressed in post 224.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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