Some claim Jesus had faith

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dms1972

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Does the Father have faith in the Son ?

Your original question was not about that. To return to your actual topic Jesus while being the Son of God, nevertheless in his human nature had faith in the sense of a firm confidence in God is my view. I don't believe these questions are necessary for our own faith. The relationship between the Persons of the Trinity I believe is one of love, and self-giving.
 
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dms1972

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The relationship between the Persons of the Trinity I believe is one of Holy Love, and self-giving. I don't know if its right or wrong to speak of the God the Father having faith in the God the Son. Why are you asking? If faith is as you say in your OP why don't you just then believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God (John 3:16)
 
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John Mullally

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You are correct that the NT is unambiguous about who Jesus Christ is. When Paul or Barnabas did miracles it wasn't to draw attention to themselves as miracle-workers, they decried any worship directed to themselves. When Jesus did miracles it was specifically because God was pointing out who Jesus was - the Incarnate Son of God (Acts 2:22)

After the miracle of Jesus walking on the waters, when he got into the boat, the disciples worshipped him and said "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:22-33) - Jesus was doing what was ascribed to Yahweh in Job 9:8 the one who tramples on the waves. He was doing it as one Person - Christ in both his divine and human natures if I am understanding it correctly. Peter getting out of the boat to come to the Lord, doubted and began to sink, his request was perhaps more an indication of his impetuousness than his faith.
I don't want to repeat my old arguments. Suffice to say - in other Christian circles there is the belief that Jesus was not born with a sin nature, perfectly followed the leading of the Holy Spirit, and recognized his position as the Son of God. We saw the works that Jesus did on earth were repeated by his disciples in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts. Although the works Jesus did were important for showing that he had the Father's approval - he did them in the same manner as his followers - in his humanity following the direction of the Holy Spirit. Although prior to Pentecost, the disciples did not have the Holy Spirit, Jesus did, and he sent them.
 
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dms1972

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I don't want to repeat my old arguments. Suffice to say - in other Christian circles there is the belief that Jesus was not born with a sin nature, perfectly followed the leading of the Holy Spirit, and recognized his position as the Son of God. We saw the works that Jesus did on earth were repeated by his disciples in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts. Although the works Jesus did were important for showing that he had the Father's approval - he did them in the same manner as his followers - in his humanity following the direction of the Holy Spirit.


What about Jesus walking on the waters?
 
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John Mullally

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What about Jesus walking on the waters?
Peter started walking on the water, but got his eyes on the water and started to sink. After Jesus rescued him, he corrected him by asking why he doubted.

In Mark 11:23-24, Jesus tells his disciples they can use faith to move mountains into the sea. If that is the case. what are the limits?
 
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dms1972

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Peter started walking on the water, but got his eyes on the water and started to sink. After Jesus rescued him, he corrected him by asking why he doubted.

In Mark 11:23-24, Jesus tells his disciples they can use faith to move mountains into the sea. If that is the case. what are the limits?

Wasn't what I was asking, but nevermind.

I don't know what you mean by "other christian circles" - which christian circles are you talking about?
 
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JohnT

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Congratulations, you have proved my point. Wow you dropped "pious-sounding psuedo spirituality".

You seemed to have missed my point. That is the reason for me writing that phrase as I did. I wanted to encapsulate the contents of your post into an memorable phrase.

Here it is again:
Therefore, you are simply arguing against facts of history

An analogy:
If you ever went to Mount Vernon in Virginia, the tour guides will tell you of several legends of George Washington. One is about the cherry tree he allegedly chopped down, and the other is throwing a silver dollar across the Potomac River. Both are suspicious, and the silver dollar across the Potomac at that site is impossible. That is because the river is about 1 mile or more across at that point. A mile as we all remember is 5,280 feet.

Even the star NFL quarterbacks have great difficulty throwing a football 300 feet, or 100 yards. To cover the distance of a mile, you would need more than 17 football fields laid end-to-end long to get to that 5,280 feet.

Therefore, no matter how much you liked George Washington, to try to make the case for him throwing a silver dollar that far is simply preposterous.

So for you to post,
John Mullally said:
I did not realize Christians are to reason from selective summations made in the dark ages over the unambiguous writings of the New Testament.

Your words are completely inaccurate from a time and history standpoint. That is why I stated that you are arguing against facts of history.


Now the application of the principle:
The Councils of Chalcedon in 451, and the second Ecumenical council held in the city of Constantinople in 533 are a matter of record. The early church is on record in opposing heresies, and codifying what Scripture says about several important issues.

As a matter of fact, there are more documents that come from Constantinople II than there are from the other Ecumenical Councils

Since the scholars and church officials used the Greek New Testament manuscripts, those very learned men were familiar with the common language of commerce, Greek, it was not like studying an obscure foreign language.

Your over simplification made many major mistakes, and that was the reason why I answered as I did.
 
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John Mullally

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Your over simplification made many major mistakes, and that was the reason why I answered as I did.
Over Simplify. Why thank you. I am a fan of Occam's razor.

I am prepared to converse from the Bible, but not the Ecumenical Councils - you might as well obfuscate using the Apocrypha.
 
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John Mullally

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Some are "schools of thought" no doubt.

Which 'school of thought' then were you refering to? :)
First of all everything should be tested against scripture. In answer to your question, I say it is somewhat common in the newer denominations (Charismatics, Pentecostals, WoF, maybe even Calvary Chapel). Not the older mainline churches, which from my experience are more influenced by tradition and frameworks - but make your own observations.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
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dms1972

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Peter started walking on the water, but got his eyes on the water and started to sink. After Jesus rescued him, he corrected him by asking why he doubted.

In Mark 11:23-24, Jesus tells his disciples they can use faith to move mountains into the sea. If that is the case. what are the limits?

I apologise I have lost the gist of what you are contending for in the discussion, is it that Jesus had faith, or something else?

I am saying that Jesus Christ is One Divine Person, the Son of God with two natures, human and divine, and that in his identification with us in our humanity knew what it was to trust God, he experienced the limitations of being a man and the need to trust and depend on His Father. The One Person acts and does what is proper to each nature. He only manifested his Divine attributes at the direction of His Father.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I apologise I have lost the gist of what you are contending for in the discussion, is it that Jesus had faith, or something else?

I am saying that Jesus Christ is One Divine Person, the Son of God with two natures, human and divine, and that in his identification with us in our humanity knew what it was to trust God, he experienced the limitations of being a man and the need to trust and depend on His Father. The One Person acts and does what is proper to each nature. He only manifested his Divine attributes at the direction of His Father.

Is Jesus a Divine Person with a human nature ?

or is Jesus a human person with a divine nature ?

There is a huge difference between the two above questions.
 
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dms1972

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First of all everything should be tested against scripture. In answer to your question, I say it is in the newer denominations (Pentecostals, WoF, maybe even Calvary Chapel). Not the older mainline churches, which from my experience are more influenced by tradition than scripture - but make your own observations.

Did you ever notice in scripture that Jesus constantly referred to himself as the "Son of Man"? Ever notice the instances in the Epistles where he spoken as being the second Adam.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Some of these denoms are not solely influenced by Scripture, they sometimes also show the mark of extra biblical influences, however there are some who are more biblical. Some of the old mainline churches are influenced by a traditional understanding of Scripture as regards the Person of Christ. The titles of Jesus Christ as Son of God and Son of Man, have to be rightly understood, but the latter title has never been an article of faith within Christianity, and it doesn't mean a son of a man in the ordinary sense, for Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit (again from Scripture Matthew 1:20)

If you want to keep it Biblical then: the title Son of Man is a reference to the book of Daniel (Daniel 7:13-14)

If you want to keep it Biblical then consider, very near the beginning of Matthew's Gospel (Matthew 1:20-23) we are told:

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
 
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John Mullally

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I apologise I have lost the gist of what you are contending for in the discussion, is it that Jesus had faith, or something else?

He only manifested his Divine attributes at the direction of His Father.
That was a reply to your question on "Walking on water".

What divine attributes did he manifest on earth pre-resurrection that were not available to him walking in his humanity under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Casting out demons, healing all manner of disease, and raising the dead are observed in the book of Acts.

If it was important that he did any work as the Son of God, then that would be delineated somewhere in the New Testament - so where is it? I know Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and received worship.

If he did everything in his humanity - it helps me with understanding how he can be our sin substitute, how he is characterized as the "Second Adam", why he says the works I do, you shall do also. And with verses like Mark 11:23-24.
 
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dms1972

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Is Jesus a Divine Person with a human nature ?

or is Jesus a human person with a divine nature ?

There is a huge difference between the two above questions.

I completely agree there is a huge difference, Chalcedonian Christology states I believe that Jesus Christ is one divine Person with both a divine nature and a human nature, but there is neither confusion, nor separation of the two natures. Not everyone of course agrees with that definition, there are other Christologies, Lutherans for instance may have a slightly different understanding.

Chalcedon affirmed the anhypostasis or impersonal humanity of Christ. According to theologian Donald Bloesch, that doesn't mean that Jesus had no personality but that he had no independent personality.
 
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dms1972

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That was a reply to your question on "Walking on water".

What divine attributes did he manifest on earth pre-resurrection that were not available to him walking in his humanity under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

If he did everything in his humanity - it helps me with understanding how he can be our sin substitute, how he is identified as the "Second Adam" and the "Son of Man". Why he says the works I do, you shall do.

I think he was manifesting divine attributes when he walked on the waves of the sea. But I don't think Jesus wants us to turn water into wine, or go walking on the waves. For me the explanation of Jesus Christ being one divine person acting as proper to each nature, that is as proper to his human nature and his divine nature makes sense.
 
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John Mullally

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I think he was manifesting divine attributes when he walked on the waves of the sea. But I don't think Jesus wants us to turn water into wine, or go walking on the waves. For me the explanation of Jesus Christ being one divine person acting as proper to each nature, that is as proper to his human nature and his divine nature makes sense.
Then how do you explain John 14:12?

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

There were glimpses in the OT. God parted the Red Sea through Moses and used Elijah to bring a young man back from the dead.
 
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JohnT

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Over Simplify. Why thank you. I am a fan of Occam's razor.

I am prepared to converse from the Bible, but not the Ecumenical Councils - you might as well obfuscate using the Apocrypha.

Of course, the Ecumenical Councils are not authoritative. But that is not my point. Are you perhaps unaware that they were discussing Scripture? Therefore the Ecumenical Councils are historical records of the theological thoughts of "spiritual giants" of long ago.

They are theological histories, nothing more, nothing less. History is not our master, but indeed it is a tool to use.

This back and forth came about because you (or someone else) made an erroneous statement about "Greek scholars coming up with the wishful thinking that they made up the Hypostatic Union. No, they declared that to be a true statement because that is what Scripture itself described.

All I am doing is demonstrating that there is MUCH MORE to the record than what that off-the-cuff remark indicated.

Of course, you can like the historical record or not; it is your choice. However, wishful thinking will not change the recorded events of history, and THAT is my point.
 
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