Submitting To One's Government

You know, people do the best that they can good or bad when it comes to such a position of being in Authority allowed by God, his grace and mercy, and allows free will choices to be made.

What would you say to that, and would you agree?

There is a scripture in 1 Timothy that expresses that we should pray for all kings, and people in authority.

What do you think about that when the bible mentions prayers made for all men and kings?

exitstageright said:

Romans 13:1 states, "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God".
I have heard some christians say that that verse is stlll relevant for today. I disagree. First of all,in Paul's day,there was no Communist Governments. Secondly,Jesus once said,"A house,divided against itself, cannot stand" Well,the Communist do not believe in God. Now my question is. Why would God establish a government that denies that he does exist? Since this is an election year,I thought that this subject is relevant.

Click to expand...

Every now and then, new governments are established. Just hope that God is on your side when that happens! Most governments start by overthrowing the existing government, and are eventually overthrown themselves.

Using that same verse, one might also rationalize that a particular government is illegitimate, that it doesn't really exist, if it doesn't seem to be established by God.

I think the way I've seen this scripture used is abusive. I've observed in particular white evangelicals using this Scripture to try and manipulate/strong arm/nullify Christians who don't agree with them politically about who's in the white house. However this same exact Scripture seems to disappear from that same group when there's somebody in the white house they don't like.

Even when I look at the Word. The Old Testament speaks very clearly about how there were King's who did evil in the sight of the Lord and their successors did more evil than they did. David had to stop being submitted to Saul because Saul wanted to kill him. There were also former king's soldiers who stood with David. Mordecai didn't bow to Haman who was the king's representative. Elijah prophesied against the the king's wife including calling her a witch. John The Baptist rebuked Herod for marrying his brother's wife. There is also the warning about "ministers of light". These are just some of the ones I can think of right now...

I'm not sure what all Paul was after but it always concerned when some people do this "Paul said..." without giving heed to the whole counsel of God.

exitstageright said:

Romans 13:1 states, "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God".
I have heard some christians say that that verse is stlll relevant for today. I disagree. First of all,in Paul's day,there was no Communist Governments. Secondly,Jesus once said,"A house,divided against itself, cannot stand" Well,the Communist do not believe in God. Now my question is. Why would God establish a government that denies that he does exist? Since this is an election year,I thought that this subject is relevant.

Click to expand...

I believe we are to be obedient to government UNLESS something they are requiring us to do or they are acting contrary to God and His word.
We are to be respectful at all times.
I am in Australia and I have always voted ( it is compulsory here).
I have pretty muçh come to the decision that next time around, I won't vote for anyone because mostly I pick the best of a bad lot.

Even voting for an independent there is preferential votes given to the major parties.
I will vote, but not for anyone.
I always thought that wasn't good to do, but I now am thinking seriously about it.

Well, Nebuchadnezzar was such like, he was even a god onto himself, yet God used him and eventually he acknowledged God. Even so-called communist leaders can be used to accomplish God's purposes. Just obey God's word

Joined2krist said:

Well, Nebuchadnezzar was such like, he was even a god onto himself, yet God used him and eventually he acknowledged God. Even so-called communist leaders can be used to accomplish God's purposes. Just obey God's word

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Even the very worst leaders God uses to achieve His ultimate purpose.

quietpraiyze said:

I'm not sure what all Paul was after

Click to expand...

The first post . . . Post #1 of this thread gives this version of Romans 13:1 >

Romans 13:1 states, "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God".

Click to expand...

But there is more. Our Apostle Paul also says >

"For he is God's minister to you for good." (in Romans 13:4)

And, with this, Paul talks about how secular rulers can deal with and punish evil doers. They have a dirty job to do, handling and managing cruel and nasty people. God can use secular people to resist evil people >

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

The Roman Empire was in power when Paul wrote these thing. The Roman rulers were not nice Christian people. But God used them to resist the Jews who had been going against God. Then the Romans were taken down, also. They were being resisted, too.

But Paul with God was able to use the Roman government for God's purpose while it was in place.

And you can read and feed on how Joseph used the government of Egypt for God's all-loving purpose > Genesis 37-50. Egypt was not a God place, to say the least. But Joseph by means of submission and communication won the trust of the Pharaoh, so Joseph became ruler of Egypt.

But, of course, we have times when God's people stood up to evil rulers and said no.

Right now, we can be perfectly ruled by Jesus, by means of His own peace ruling us >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

It seems there are people very busy with telling politicians what to do, but they say not a word about obeying Jesus in His peace. On You Tube, I have offered about 13 minutes about this > "Obey God in His peace".

We do this "in one body" > as family. Right now, God's one obedient "holy nation" (in 1 Peter 2:9) is doing this.

Heavenhome said:

I believe we are to be obedient to government UNLESS something they are requiring us to do or they are acting contrary to God and His word.
We are to be respectful at all times.
I am in Australia and I have always voted ( it is compulsory here).
I have pretty muçh come to the decision that next time around, I won't vote for anyone because mostly I pick the best of a bad lot.

Even voting for an independent there is preferential votes given to the major parties.
I will vote, but not for anyone.
I always thought that wasn't good to do, but I now am thinking seriously about it.

Click to expand...

It's okay...I didn't vote in the last Presidential election (USA) because in good conscience I couldn't. I didn't feel any peace with what was available to me, so I prayed about it and chose to stay in peace and not to go against my conscience. I'm so glad I made the choice that I did. I still voted locally but I left the Presidential election alone. People have all kinds of reasons why they vote but sometimes it's just good to step back, pray, and seek the Lord as whether he has a better way to accomplish the issue(s) or what we think we're voting for. Also "everybody" can be wrong...

exitstageright said:

Romans 13:1 states, "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God".

Click to expand...

I don't like the liberties that translation takes. The NASB captures the subtlety here:


The first instance of authorities is plural, referring to the various individual governments. The second is singular, referring to the authority behind the governments. The authority is from God in all cases. It is His will that order be introduced to our societies. But that does not mean that every government is in His perfect will. Paul goes on to say:


Government are required by God to do what is right. But what happens when they don't? They didn't have atheistic Communism back then, but they did have the Roman Empire that set up Caesar as a false god, and worship was compulsory. Many Christians were murdered by the state because they wouldn't offer a pinch of incense to him.

What happens when a government's behavior is egregiously immoral? Over time Christian thinkers have used Biblical principles and natural law to come up with Just War Theory. We see these principles at work in our Declaration of Independence. Because continued subservience to evil is unthinkable.

Subjection to man is always limited, regardless of the institution in question being designated by God. That is true of employer-employee relations, husband-wife relations, and citizen-government relations.

"Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ." —Colossians 3:23-24

The linchpin in the OP for me is submission. It denotes a mindset and disposition that's spiritually derived and naturally displayed. My example in this context is Daniel. Evil leadership and behavior doesn't provide liberties in expression I lacked before its arrival. God is the same today as He was yesterday. In like fashion, my conduct must reflect His will at all times to the best of my ability.

Whether I agree with the person in authority or the regime. The necessity of acknowledging my position in relation to theirs and complying with the law doesn't disappear. The horrors we're experiencing today are no different from the difficulties they had in earlier times. But Christ didn't authorize an uprising or lead one. He was about His Father's business.

I must do the same. Pray for leaders and make intercession for those in need. Continue the work I've received and be a beacon for the lost. That's impossible if I sully myself with untoward thoughts and actions. I'm no different than the rest and difference is the hallmark of my faith.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

One way to think of obeying the USA is that almost all oaths that we take in this country are to the Constitution not to the government or some person in the government. Ya, I know lower/local laws say we are to obey a police officer for example.

To be clear, I do think we should follow laws. Especially the spirit of those laws. The better we are at following the spirit of laws, after all, the fewer written laws are needed. I respect our political processes, and our public servants who hold office. However, maybe it's my American education speaking, but I think a government should only persist by the consent of the governed. It seems to me that God allows oppressive governments to exist like he allows other bad things to happen to people. Both are problematic, and harmful to the people involved, but are more a symptom of a fallen world than something that we should consider acceptable.

I'd like to think that if I was asked to violate my conscience, I would not be required to submit to the government.

exitstageright said:

Romans 13:1 states, "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God".
I have heard some christians say that that verse is stlll relevant for today. I disagree. First of all,in Paul's day,there was no Communist Governments. Secondly,Jesus once said,"A house,divided against itself, cannot stand" Well,the Communist do not believe in God. Now my question is. Why would God establish a government that denies that he does exist? Since this is an election year,I thought that this subject is relevant.

Click to expand...

Let's consider how governments came to power in Paul's day. Fortunes of battle (either traditional pitched battles or court intrigue), and inheritance. Let's consider how governments are changed in American society - elections which we try to make sure are free and fair. We have no king. In fact, our elected officials have to swear to uphold the Constitution - which one could say was given its chance through fortunes of battle. If fortunes of battle are the basis for deciding that God ordained Cesar Augustus over the Romans, or Cyrus over the Persians, then they are just as fair for God ordaining the Constitution of the United States of America.

Which logically will put the Constitution in place of the "ruler," "one in authority," or "government" in Romans 13. Which means the Constitution must be adhered to, and put first over the agenda of any President, Vice President, Secretary, Senator, or Representative. (And yes, the Constitution may be amended, as it provides for an amendment process - only amendments according to that process of course, would be valid.)

I'm not convinced that God ordains elections themselves. That would mean the same God ordained Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump. Which of course makes no sense at all when you look at their actions and priorities.

exitstageright said:

Romans 13:1 states, "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God".
I have heard some christians say that that verse is stlll relevant for today. I disagree. First of all,in Paul's day,there was no Communist Governments. Secondly,Jesus once said,"A house,divided against itself, cannot stand" Well,the Communist do not believe in God. Now my question is. Why would God establish a government that denies that he does exist? Since this is an election year,I thought that this subject is relevant.

Click to expand...

Matthew 22:21 “Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

on the contrary, when the government starts to do evil-
Romans 13:3-7.