Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
5) The Gospel and the book of Acts document the power of God over Satan and his demons in many ways, but their imprisonment to the abyss is recorded as yet to come, not what has already happened. The scriptures repeatedly teach a still presently ongoing battle for souls between God and Satan. You do not battle with an imprisoned enemy. He is at that point defeated and not able to cause harm to anyone.

That is not true. The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

6) We are not ignoring the resurrection of Christ, but you still have not been able to answer why John applies the first resurrection to the dead in Christ who are raised up by the Lord when He returns.

Yes you are. Your theology requires that you reject Christ's first resurrection. Sad!

7) You still have not been able to answer why John places the first resurrection at the return of Christ and the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

That is because he doesn't. You do.

8) That is because Satan's season, before the coming of Christ, has not been a short one. It has been a long season. This pre-Christ short season is a doctrine of your own imagination whereas scripture has placed this short season at the end of the millennial reign which you deny.

Where in Scripture does it talk about "resurrection days" for man (plural)?
Where in Scripture does it talk about "judgement days" for man (plural)?

Nowhere!

9) I already addressed this at the beginning of this response post.
10) There is nothing in Revelation 20 that outlines the intra-Advent (I'm assuming that is the Church age). It is all written in future tense and after the return of our Lord.

You have admitted that your doctrine has no support in the rest of Scripture. That is why every Bible believing Christian should reject it.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
What may make the one hour reign of the beast a figurative expression is because there other scriptures pertaining to his reign that give other time frames suggesting that this could be the case, but there is nothing found elsewhere in scripture suggesting that the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth to be anything but a literal 1,000 year reign.

You already answered your own question.

But why does John call the resurrection of the dead in Christ at Christ's return as being the first resurrection? Why then is there another resurrection at the end of the thousand years?

He doesn't. You do. Christ is the first resurrection. Through that we have salvation, union with Christ and "have part" positionally in that glorious resurrection. Through Christ's victory we experience dual resurrection - spiritual and physical.

You are the one who brought it up again and so I addressed it. I see no evidence that Satan has been restrained from deceiving anyone since there are so many people throughout the world who, if it were not for being blinded by religious, philosophical, political, and academic teachings that oppose the Gospel and challenge the truth of scripture, and if not for the lies about the faith by which they have been deceived, might come to repentance. If a list could be made of all the things that continue to deceive multitudes today, it would be a long list indeed.

If Satan was not hard at work attempting to thwart the great commission, then why is there such widespread persecution against the Church in many nations? There will come a time when he will be able to wreak havoc on a much grander scale than at present, but that will take place in the last few years of this present age. But it is not the short season spoken of in Revelation 20 when he is released from the abyss to test the hearts of men; that short season that you erroneously persist in placing before the first coming of Christ.

You have to ignore so much clear New Testament Scripture in order for your doctrine to fit. Your fixation with Revelation 20 has hidden the rest of Scripture to you. Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Since the first Advent, Satan is shown to be a conquered foe.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

We are not diluting the impact of anything, but we are not the ones denying the prophetic teachings of scripture either, nor are we the ones imposing interpretations upon them to which they bear no witness.

Who cares what the enemy is doing. We know the vast majority of people will go to hell. Premils are obsessed with the enemy. They are always lauding the exploits of Satan. It wants to focus on the evil of this world. That is integral to the doctrine. Amil and Postmil are focused on Christ. It sees the glorious advance of the great commission to all that want to be free. Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Only man can stop himself. Since the first resurrection a light has been shone on the nations and Satan's territory is being invaded throughout the world as we speak. PTL.

It is you who is missing the whole genre of Revelation, which is prophetic and now even going so far as to deny that there is a literal Hell to which the wicked will be sentenced for all eternity, all in favor of a figurative interpretation that you insist on imposing on scriptures that bear no witness to it while accusing Premils of doing that which you yourself are guilty of in the name of the Amil doctrine to which you hold.

That is just blatantly untrue.

Is the dragon trailing stars down from heaven to earth a real dragon trailing stars down from heaven to earth?
Is the lamb with seven horns and seven eyes a real lamb with seven horns and seven eyes?
Do you know an obese woman big enough to sit on seven hills at the one time?
Do you know a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars?
So, you're expecting Christ to literally return from heaven on a white horse with many crowns on his head, and with a literal sharp sword coming out of His mouth
When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison?
Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?
How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
Do you really believe that Revelation 20 is describing Satan being restrained for 'one thousand years' after the second Coming when "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount and when there is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible?
We have a dragon drawing a 1/3 of the stars of heaven to the earth.
Will a literal angel with a sun for a face and wearing a cloud descend from Heaven?

It is not a personal opinion. It was what the text presents. It is you who is imposing his own personal opinion on a text that does not corroborate it, no matter how much you insist it does.

You have already admitted it. It is there for everyone to read.

If Satan is bound as you say he is, he should not be able to influence anyone to do evil, cause any degree of destruction, nor inflict harm of any degree on anyone and obviously, I am not arguing that Satan is presently bound in the manner described in Revelation 20. He is still roaming freely about the earth.

The binding does, however, suggest that Satan must not be able to roam about the earth, but remain confined to the abyss. It is how he will be kept from being able to deceive the nations while Christ reigns upon the earth for the thousand year duration.

Actually, Revelation 20 does indeed suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm upon anyone while bound; that you would suggest otherwise is an opinion of yours that you are imposing upon the text.

Furthermore, the only crimes prisoners can commit are against other prisoners, but the abyss is not a man-made prison, obviously, but it is still a literal place created by God for the purpose of holding evil spirits which will eventually include Satan.

The Scripture you present does not in any way infringe the spiritual restraint that is upon Satan today. The devil has power and movement but is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

What is more, the Church is shown to exercise power over Satan since his dethroning and binding. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him.

Tony Evans states: “Satan has no authority or power over the one who is aligned under the covering of the risen and exalted Christ.”

Scripture makes clear that Satan has been defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Christ and is spiritually incapable of stopping the invasion of the truth and light to the Gentiles (ethnos) nations since the resurrection. He is hampered by spiritual chains. Only those who get close to him can be harmed. Satan cannot deceive the Gentiles anymore as a whole (like he did before Christ's earthly ministry) because the Gospel has been brought to them. This is a general broad statement that is made in Rev 20 in regard to the great commission.

While granted that the entire earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord during the age foretold in Revelation 20, the chapter is about much more than what you have made it out to be as the events thereof are very specific and are beyond anything that you are attributing to it as it describes an age that is different from the current age in which we live.

The Scripture is very specific about the nature of Satan's imprisonment and while the life, death, and resurrection of Christ has made way of escape from Satan's grasp those who have placed their faith in the Lord for salvation and has made the defeat of Satan certain, and while Satan has always been and still is limited in his power, attributes, and resources, none of this is the binding that Revelation 20 foretells. The scriptures clearly state that the nature of the prison in which Satan will be bound is not on the earth but inside the earth.

Where does it say it is inside the earth? I suspect, you are adding unto Scripture again.

Contenders Edge · Sep 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Because it is describing the intra-Advent period in symbolic language. The only sensible and safe way to navigate through the book of Revelation is by using other clear Scripture to assist us dissect it. Without this we could easily get entangled in all the symbolism and make Revelation say whatever we want it to say.

You keep claiming that it is speaking in symbolic language without any evidence from that same chapter to back it up. The only sensible and safe way to navigate through the book of Revelation, like the rest of scripture, is reliance upon the text itself, but when there are other scriptures pertaining to the same event or subject matter we compare the scriptures to one another in hopes of gaining a clearer understanding of of all that the full counsel of scripture has to say pertaining to that event or subject matter at hand.

In order to gain as clear of an understanding of all that is to come as can possibly be gained, you would have to bring together every scripture from Genesis to Revelation and read them in light of each other and within their proper context without dismissing or discounting any details contained therein and it should be expected that there will be some scripture that will have more to say about what is to come than other scriptures foretelling the end. The book of Revelation is just one such example of end-times scripture that has more to say about what is to come than the Apostolic epistles or even the Gospels.

sovereigngrace said:
You are totally living in denial in order to justify your unsupported and contradictory opinion on Revelation 20.

Again:

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Second verse, same as the first; answers will be no different than what was given before, and it is YOU who is living in denial in order to support a doctrine that the context of the chapter does not support.

sovereigngrace said:
You invent a new age and a new doctrine that is unknown to the rest of Scripture. Rev 20 is the start of the 7th recap.

You are the one inventing and holding to doctrine foreign to the overall counsel of the text. There is nothing about the Revelation 20 that suggests it to be a recap of anything. It is all presented as future tense.

sovereigngrace said:
In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

If the cited passages were all to be said about what is to happen when Christ returns, then it would be as clear as you say, but because of the book of Revelation, it is not as clear as you claim it is. Revelation 20 says the resurrected saints and Christ are ruling and reigning, but if there are no mortals alive in the Kingdom come to earth, then who are they ruling and reigning over?

sovereigngrace said:
We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

But it is not quite the end according to Revelation 20. Christ and the glorified saints are ruling and reigning and that they are ruling suggests that there are subjects over whom we will rule. If we are not ruling over surviving mortals deemed worthy to enter into the Kingdom brought to earth, then who are we ruling over? And the multitude, led by Satan, who will attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ after having lived under His rule for a period of time, cannot be easily dismissed. They had to have come from somewhere, and if they are not the children of the righteous mortals who were permitted to enter into the millennial Kingdom, then who are they?

sovereigngrace said:
The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

"Populate?" Are you suggesting there will be people counted worthy to "populate?" the regenerated earth? This seems contrary to the position you have been so adamantly holding to. Do you even understand what "populate" means? It means more than just dwelling and living in the regenerated earth; it means to produce offspring.

Contenders Edge · Sep 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

No one that I know of is suggesting that unsaved mortals or the nations who come against Jerusalem are going to live in the regenerated earth, but mortals who are saved and survive to see the return of Christ will be living under His rule and that of the glorified saints.

You, contrary to your held position, have already insinuated that the regenerated earth was going to be populated:

"The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth."

Just not by the children of the wicked one and no one on either side of the debate that I know of is even suggesting that any of the wicked and unrepentant are going to dwell in and populate the regenerated earth.

sovereigngrace said:
Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

No one is arguing that there will be any heathens inheriting the regenerated earth, but according to Revelation 20, at the end of the duration of Christ's reign on the earth before it is destroyed and replaced with a new one altogether, there will be multitudes of heathens. If it were not so, then who is coming against the encampment of Christ and His saints, and if they are not the rebellious offspring of the righteous who survive to populate the regenerated earth, then who are they?

sovereigngrace said:
Really? You obviously need to look at it a little bit closer. Revelation 19 tells us what every other second coming passage tells us – that the second coming is the end of the world.

The assignment

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

The term “the fowls of heaven” is frequently employed throughout the Old Testament to describe bird-life in general and is quite often accompanies the description “the beasts of the earth” which relates to the animal life. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel identify both with the judgment of God and with feasting upon the wicked after destruction.

This overall passage, which evidently relates to the second coming of the Lord and the awful day of God’s wrath, seems to entirely correlate with Matthew 24:27-30 and Luke 17:24-37.

Matthew records Jesus say: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The parallel passage in Luke 17:24-37 tells us: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away. The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

Every time the Gospel is faithfully preached Satan is waiting in the wings to steal that Word so that you do not apply it to your heart and it perfect. Every truth is dangerous to him because it encourages the Saints, exalts Christ and exposes him.

Revelation 19:17-18 outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.

Also, they depend wholly on one flawed opinion, which if taken away, decimates the belief, that of Revelation 20 being chronological with Revelation 19. Take that away and it falls like a deck of cards.

Those of us who were Premil could not fight with Scripture any more, we had to impress the climactic nature of Christ's return. No wicked survive it. Sin, sinners, corruption and decay, crying and dying are banished from the new earth.

The execution

The extent of that supper is revealed in verses 19-21, saying, “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

loipoy = remaining ones or those left behind.

This is pretty comprehensive to me. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7). Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added to reinforce to the wholesale nature of the destruction.

In order to for the Amil position to have any scriptural credibility, Revelation chapter 20 would have to be done away with altogether. The passages that you cite do nothing to discredit the premil position in light of Revelation chapter 20 and while the passages you cite foretell the demise of all of the wicked people at the hands of Christ when He returns, they do nothing to discredit the premil position which is founded on Revelation chapter 20.

You rely solely on the notion of a recap for your claim that Revelation chapters 19 and 20 are not chronological, but there is nothing in the context of chapter 20 that suggests a recap. It is that very notion, not the premil doctrine, that is flawed in this matter. And once again, no one, on either side of the debate, is suggesting or arguing that any of the wicked are going to live on and populate the regenerated earth when Christ returns to establish His reign.

Contenders Edge · Sep 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is not true. The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

sovereigngrace said:
Yes you are. Your theology requires that you reject Christ's first resurrection. Sad!

That is not true, but you still have not answered why John calls the resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection. Instead you deny that he does, as you have denied that Revelation chapter 20 says what it says when you cannot answer its challenges to the Amil doctrine you hold to, only this time, you have resorted to giving me credit for words I did not write:

sovereigngrace said:
That is because he doesn't. You do.

"and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

John's words, not mine.

sovereigngrace said:
Where in Scripture does it talk about "resurrection days" for man (plural)?
Where in Scripture does it talk about "judgement days" for man (plural)?
Nowhere!

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: an another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works...And whosoever was no found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:12-15)

Looks like two separate judgments to me: One at the beginning of the thousand years and one at the end.

sovereigngrace said:
You have admitted that your doctrine has no support in the rest of Scripture. That is why every Bible believing Christian should reject it.

You have not been able to show me anywhere in the rest of scripture that refutes it. Show me scripture that declares the thousand year reign to be symbolic and the interpretation that it gives for the thousand years and you will be able to soundly refute Premil doctrine. But you have not done so. You simply apply a symbolic interpretation upon text that does not corroborate such an interpretation.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You keep claiming that it is speaking in symbolic language without any evidence from that same chapter to back it up. The only sensible and safe way to navigate through the book of Revelation, like the rest of scripture, is reliance upon the text itself, but when there are other scriptures pertaining to the same event or subject matter we compare the scriptures to one another in hopes of gaining a clearer understanding of of all that the full counsel of scripture has to say pertaining to that event or subject matter at hand.

In order to gain as clear of an understanding of all that is to come as can possibly be gained, you would have to bring together every scripture from Genesis to Revelation and read them in light of each other and within their proper context without dismissing or discounting any details contained therein and it should be expected that there will be some scripture that will have more to say about what is to come than other scriptures foretelling the end. The book of Revelation is just one such example of end-times scripture that has more to say about what is to come than the Apostolic epistles or even the Gospels.

But, you admit you have nothing else in Scripture. That is a damning indictment on Premil. That alone is grounds to reject it. But when you add your mistaken denial of the symbolic genre of the book of Revelation and the highly symbolic nature of the wording of Revelation it exposes the bankrupt hermeneutics that Premil employs. The doctrine is easily refuted.

Your problem is: you cannot even accept and understand the very first introductory verse that tells us what the genre is. You seem to have no grasp of apocalyptic language. That is why your doctrine contradicts so much other Scripture and lacks any other biblical support.

Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolised) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

Signs (John 4:48)
Signify (Acts 25:27)
Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)

Is Jesus a literal lamb (Revelation 5:6, 8, 12, 6:1, 16, 7:9-10, 14, 17, 12:11, 13:8, 11, 14:1, 4, 10, 15:3, 17:14, 19:7, 9, 21:9, 14, 22, 23, 27, 22:1, and 3)?
Is Jesus a literal lion (Revelation 5:5 and 10:3)?

Of course not! The Lord Jesus Christ is symbolically represented in this passage by two completely diverse and seemingly contradictory descriptions – (1) as a Lion, and (2) as a Lamb. The lion is an image of power, authority, and is known by man as the king of the jungle, he is an animal that puts fear into his enemy. The lamb on the other hand is a symbol of timidity, gentleness and is a perfect picture of purity and innocence. It was only after that impeccable servant life and His atoning death that Christ rose supreme to sit on His throne at the right hand of majesty on high. From there He currently rules as the King of glory. He is expressly the priestly king after the order of Melchizedek.

Is Satan a literal snake (Revelation 12:9, 14, 15, 20:2)?
Is Satan a literal dragon (Revelation 12:3,4, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17, 13:2, 4, 11, 16:13, 20:2)?

Of course not. We are looking at figurative language. This symbolism is presented to depict his vicious and subtle malevolence. It shows the danger of his presence and danger of his ability.

Second verse, same as the first; answers will be no different than what was given before, and it is YOU who is living in denial in order to support a doctrine that the context of the chapter does not support.

For you to answer these questions directly and honestly would immediately expose your argument. Your avoidance reveals how untenable Premil is.

You are the one inventing and holding to doctrine foreign to the overall counsel of the text. There is nothing about the Revelation 20 that suggests it to be a recap of anything. It is all presented as future tense.

You do not see the danger and error involved in your "private interpretation" theology. You invent an age unknown and forbidden by Christ and the other NT writers. Scripture only recognizes 2 ages. You invent 3 to support your error.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If the cited passages were all to be said about what is to happen when Christ returns, then it would be as clear as you say, but because of the book of Revelation, it is not as clear as you claim it is. Revelation 20 says the resurrected saints and Christ are ruling and reigning, but if there are no mortals alive in the Kingdom come to earth, then who are they ruling and reigning over?

This is just one example of many that forbids your theory. This alone demolishes the Premil paradigm of more of the same after the second coming. Your response is to explain away another clear passage by your faulty understanding of one uncorroborated chapter in the most obscure setting in Scripture (ironically the one chapter that Premils are fixated with - Revelation 20). It is the lens they interpret the whole of Scripture with. Shocking!

This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. Firstly this age is a reward for the redeemed. The Premil scheme falls apart at this point as it saturates the new earth with unregenerate mortal rebels. In fact, they reward those who attack Jerusalem just prior to the second coming and usher them into the semi-corrupt semi-glorious millennial age.

While marriage takes place in "this age/world," Christ tells us that it will not take place in "that age/world," which follows the resurrection. There is no marriage after the resurrection because Christ ushers in the eternal state which requires perfect spiritual bodies instead of corrupt physical bodies. The glorified saints will have perfected bodies, just like the elect angels. There will be no more separation, sin or death. Marriage is therefore terminated, because it represents division between human beings.

The reality is: those who experience the age to come are not expressly mortals (they don’t die). This obviously exclusively refers to the perfected glorified saints. Those that are “accounted worthy” in Scripture are the elect. Thus, those that “obtain that age” which is to come are those that have been glorified at the resurrection. They enter the eternal age and don’t “die any more” – “for they are equal unto the angels.”

But it is not quite the end according to Revelation 20. Christ and the glorified saints are ruling and reigning and that they are ruling suggests that there are subjects over whom we will rule. If we are not ruling over surviving mortals deemed worthy to enter into the Kingdom brought to earth, then who are we ruling over? And the multitude, led by Satan, who will attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ after having lived under His rule for a period of time, cannot be easily dismissed. They had to have come from somewhere, and if they are not the children of the righteous mortals who were permitted to enter into the millennial Kingdom, then who are they?

This is all you have: "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20." Do you not see the folly of this mantra that Premils employ? Does it not disturb you? Do you not see that it is unscriptural?

Premil has only one string to their guitar and it is making a very monotonous sound: “what saith Revelation 20?”

The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove.

American and British Law demands corroboration, they were built upon OT principles.

God’s truth is not built upon logic. Logic is human reasoning and runs contrary to God's mind. It is fleshly, dangerous and unreliable. It is mere personal opinion. Truth is built solely on Scripture. Romans 4:3 rightly asks, “For what saith the Scripture?"

We must therefore interpret Scripture with Scripture and not by the man’s innovative religious constraints, history books, ancient or modern writings, eschatological books/novels, archaeology or, as is popular today in this day of apostasy, human reasoning. When examining Scripture we must throw off the heavy theological chains that men place on us, decommission our flawed natural mind-set, as it is mainly contrary to God’s mind, and embrace the simple meaning of the passage that is determined by context, location and wording.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 says, “we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.

Corroboration must be a fundamental tenet of any doctrine.

The word "corroboration" means 'support for'. It is fair and reasonable to ask the Bible student for other "support" for their understanding or interpretation of a particular Scripture. We must let other Scripture corroborate our understanding of it and shed further light on the meaning of the text in question. We must always interpret Scripture in a manner that does not conflict with other clear passages. If it does, that interpretation must be rejected and further study should be committed to determine the correct interpretation that harmonizes with the full context of Scripture.

The Bible student must let the Bible speak for itself. Context is everything. If one is to impose ‘an unqualified sweeping literalist understanding on all Scripture unless it is impossible to do so’, then they are forcing a partial bias upon Holy Writ, thus creating a preconceived notion on Scripture, before trying to ascertain its sense and setting. You end up artificially producing a desired end.

Proverbs 30:5-6 makes clear, “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar”

The Bible solemnly says: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:20)

Deuteronomy 4:2 declares, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”

Christ prayed, in His great intercessory prayer to His Father, in John 17, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17).

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Amils rightly use the whole of Scripture to ascertain what will happen at the end and the age to come. You use your opinion of one chapter. Scripture rebukes your flawed hermeneutics.

"Populate?" Are you suggesting there will be people counted worthy to "populate?" the regenerated earth? This seems contrary to the position you have been so adamantly holding to. Do you even understand what "populate" means? It means more than just dwelling and living in the regenerated earth; it means to produce offspring.

The glorified saints alone are worthy to populate the glorified new earth when Jesus comes.

Timtofly · Sep 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Because it is describing the intra-Advent period in symbolic language. The only sensible and safe way to navigate through the book of Revelation is by using other clear Scripture to assist us dissect it. Without this we could easily get entangled in all the symbolism and make Revelation say whatever we want it to say.

The Reformers introduced a very solid interpretative system that was based on the crucial principle of supporting Scripture with Scripture. They used this to dismantle Roman Catholic heresy. They required corroborative evidence to support their opinion of any given text. This was to prevent error and to aid our understanding of truth.

Corroboration is said to be “evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition.”

Sound theologians have employed this important principle to avoid speculative interpretation and the damage of forcing a meaning on a text that contradicts repeated Scripture.

Anyone that is a student of this Book (and theology) will know the importance of this great demand. Anyone that has ever been involved in law will also know how essential it is in proving a fact.

Most Christians are aware of the crucial mandate of 2 Peter 1:20: “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”

When someone takes one Scripture and makes it contradicts numerous other Scripture you know that their understanding of that text is wrong. Rightly understanding the Bible requires exegesis (meaning: deriving out of Scripture), not eisegesis (meaning: reading into Scripture).

The problem we have today across the board when it comes to doctrine is: Christians try to force their theology into a text rather than letting the Scripture speak for itself.

Premil (in my opinion) is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine.

What happened to the witness and testimony of the Holy Spirit?

It is easy to set a precedent and change the text slightly and prove your theology and many will accept it, even those who want to get away from that pesky Holy Spirit that tells them they are wrong. Theology cannot be wrong, so we can trust it, no?

sovereigngrace said:
You are totally living in denial in order to justify your unsupported and contradictory opinion on Revelation 20.

Again:

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Satan is a physical being and in Revelation 20, John puts in one verse all the words used to describe Satan in the NT setting, except a roaring lion.

Does the abyss have a metal door?

The chain is probably of material not discovered by humans to date of Armageddon. Who knows what technology Satan will advance in 3.5 years of unchecked nightmare?

What does demons, the spirits of reprobate humans, have to do with Revelation 20?

Is sheol made of brick? Is sheol a prison? God prepared sheol, not humans. Humans did not make up the scenario about Satan that John witnessed and wrote down. God commanded it to happen and it did.

sovereigngrace said:
You invent a new age and a new doctrine that is unknown to the rest of Scripture. Rev 20 is the start of the 7th recap.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

You claim the millennium is a new invented age, and then quote verses about the age to come. Who is inventing ages? Which age to come without private interpretation do these verses cover. If Revelation defines an age, how can that be inventing ages, when you your self accept "the age to come"?

I agree that the church will not be on earth having babies in the next Millennium. Revelation 20 never mentions the church once. None of the resurrection(s) mentioned in Revelation 20 involve the church one iota. To argue against something that is not even in the Bible seems rather dramatic instead of climactic.

Your verses also refute Amil, because Christians currently marry, some even remarry multiple times. So we are not even in that age to come that your verses reference. To say souls, if you do not even accept Scripture claiming they have bodies, can marry without a body seems obvious. They did not have offspring as dead souls in the OT in Abraham's bosom. That has been a fact since Abel died. That is hardly a specific definition of a specific age.

There is also the fact that those in Revelation 20 were resurrected. In fact it is the only specified resurrection in the whole Bible that includes a complete group of one type all resurrected at the same time. It is the least obscure resurrection event. In fact many give it credit for describing more obscure resurrection verses. Revelation 20 may be the key to many obscure passages.

sovereigngrace said:
Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.
Really? You obviously need to look at it a little bit closer. Revelation 19 tells us what every other second coming passage tells us – that the second coming is the end of the world.

The assignment

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

The term “the fowls of heaven” is frequently employed throughout the Old Testament to describe bird-life in general and is quite often accompanies the description “the beasts of the earth” which relates to the animal life. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel identify both with the judgment of God and with feasting upon the wicked after destruction.

This overall passage, which evidently relates to the second coming of the Lord and the awful day of God’s wrath, seems to entirely correlate with Matthew 24:27-30 and Luke 17:24-37.

Matthew records Jesus say: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

The parallel passage in Luke 17:24-37 tells us: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away. The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

Every time the Gospel is faithfully preached Satan is waiting in the wings to steal that Word so that you do not apply it to your heart and it perfect. Every truth is dangerous to him because it encourages the Saints, exalts Christ and exposes him.

Revelation 19:17-18 outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.

Those of us who were Premil could not fight with Scripture any more, we had to impress the climactic nature of Christ's return. No wicked survive it. Sin, sinners, corruption and decay, crying and dying are banished from the new earth.

Revelation 19 is death and finality.

Revelation 20 is new life restored.

Would you prefer reverse chronology?

sovereigngrace said:
The execution

The extent of that supper is revealed in verses 19-21, saying, “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is pretty comprehensive to me. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7). Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added to reinforce to the wholesale nature of the destruction.

I agree. There is no post Armageddon rapture or resurrection of the church. When do you propose the church is completed and presented to God in the temple of God? There was no church killed at Armageddon. There was no church headed in armored vehicles to the battle of Armageddon. There was no church receiving God's wrath in the 7 vials of Revelation 15 and 16. There was no church fighting Satan to keep their heads for 3.5 years. There was no church in the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
No one that I know of is suggesting that unsaved mortals or the nations who come against Jerusalem are going to live in the regenerated earth, but mortals who are saved and survive to see the return of Christ will be living under His rule and that of the glorified saints.

You, contrary to your held position, have already insinuated that the regenerated earth was going to be populated:

"The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth."

Just not by the children of the wicked one and no one on either side of the debate that I know of is even suggesting that any of the wicked and unrepentant are going to dwell in and populate the regenerated earth.

You can package this up whatever way you want but there are no mortals on the new earth. This passage forbids your speculations in order to support a false doctrine. You have to fight with text after text in order for your theology to fit.

You are either not reading the words of Jesus in Luke 20:34-36 or you are deliberately twisting His words. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Please look at this: there is no mortality in the age no come. Why? We are looking at the eternal state. Your doctrine is in violation of Christ's teaching here. You are fighting the words of Christ, not just Amils. The reason is: the second coming is the end!

You have both death and marriage (and procreation) in your supposed future millennium. This cannot be. Jesus refutes such an imagination.

Man, in his sinful corruptible state, cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer! The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

These passages show that the destruction that occurs when Jesus comes will be wholesale. None will be able to survive it. What replaces the removal of this current corrupt set-up is a new perfect world free of sin and sinners, crying and dying, death and decay. This couldn't be any more climactic.

No one is arguing that there will be any heathens inheriting the regenerated earth, but according to Revelation 20, at the end of the duration of Christ's reign on the earth before it is destroyed and replaced with a new one altogether, there will be multitudes of heathens. If it were not so, then who is coming against the encampment of Christ and His saints, and if they are not the rebellious offspring of the righteous who survive to populate the regenerated earth, then who are they?

Who is this 3rd group of humans (that are unknown to the scared pages) that are too righteous to be destroyed yet too wicked to be rescue?

The Bible makes clear that all believers are caught up to meet Jesus when He comes. He is this supposed group that is the catching away yet are exempt from the wrath of God that accompanies Jesus.

In order to for the Amil position to have any scriptural credibility, Revelation chapter 20 would have to be done away with altogether. The passages that you cite do nothing to discredit the premil position in light of Revelation chapter 20 and while the passages you cite foretell the demise of all of the wicked people at the hands of Christ when He returns, they do nothing to discredit the premil position which is founded on Revelation chapter 20.

You rely solely on the notion of a recap for your claim that Revelation chapters 19 and 20 are not chronological, but there is nothing in the context of chapter 20 that suggests a recap. It is that very notion, not the premil doctrine, that is flawed in this matter. And once again, no one, on either side of the debate, is suggesting or arguing that any of the wicked are going to live on and populate the regenerated earth when Christ returns to establish His reign.

Congratulations on avoiding every single verse, argument and point in Revelation 19 that proves it is climactic. I will repost:

You obviously need to look at it a little bit closer. Revelation 19 tells us what every other second coming passage tells us – that the second coming is the end of the world.

The assignment

Revelation 19:17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

The “fowls” that “fly in the midst of heaven” are commanded to prepare for a supper – the dead carcasses of the wicked that are about to be destroyed by the Lord.

The term “the fowls of heaven” is frequently employed throughout the Old Testament to describe bird-life in general and is quite often accompanies the description “the beasts of the earth” which relates to the animal life. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel identify both with the judgment of God and with feasting upon the wicked after destruction.

This overall passage, which evidently relates to the second coming of the Lord and the awful day of God’s wrath, seems to entirely correlate with Matthew 24:27-30 and Luke 17:24-37.

Matthew records Jesus say: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The parallel passage in Luke 17:24-37 tells us: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

This is saying the exact same as Matthew 24. Revelation 19 also correlates with this. The eagles devour those left behind after the catching away. The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

Every time the Gospel is faithfully preached Satan is waiting in the wings to steal that Word so that you do not apply it to your heart and it perfect. Every truth is dangerous to him because it encourages the Saints, exalts Christ and exposes him.

Revelation 19:17-18 outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Revelation 19, like every other Scripture, supports a climactic coming (including the destruction of all the wicked), and in doing so reinforces the Amillennial position. Premils have to explain away the literal detail in order to facilitate Premil.

Also, they depend wholly on one flawed opinion, which if taken away, decimates the belief, that of Revelation 20 being chronological with Revelation 19. Take that away and it falls like a deck of cards.

Those of us who were Premil could not fight with Scripture any more, we had to impress the climactic nature of Christ's return. No wicked survive it. Sin, sinners, corruption and decay, crying and dying are banished from the new earth.

The execution

The extent of that supper is revealed in verses 19-21, saying, “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

loipoy = remaining ones or those left behind.

This is pretty comprehensive to me. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7). Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added to reinforce to the wholesale nature of the destruction.

Timtofly · Sep 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is not true. The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Yes you are. Your theology requires that you reject Christ's first resurrection. Sad!

That is because he doesn't. You do.

Where in Scripture does it talk about "resurrection days" for man (plural)?
Where in Scripture does it talk about "judgement days" for man (plural)?

Nowhere!

You have admitted that your doctrine has no support in the rest of Scripture. That is why every Bible believing Christian should reject it.

I agree that Satan is bound during every earthly ministry that Jesus has and will carry out on earth.

Any theology that denies Christ's claims to have physical rule and authority on earth over Satan is self deceiving.

To say Satan has been bound during the church age denies the historical record. Binding was the responsibility of the church. The church could loose and bind on earth. Seems like the church let Satan loose more often than bound due to the historical record. It is not a private interpretation. It is a very observable fact, unless some have their heads buried in the sand.

Tell me how an angel can represent the church as a whole? Then explain how the church went so wrong most of the last 1990 years? The angel in Revelation 20 will not fail like the church did in her job of keeping Satan bound.

sovereigngrace · Sep 13, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
COMPLETE SILENCE

Why the silence???

I am starting to see a pattern here with you: when Scripture is presented to you that supports Amil and forbids Premil you simply ignore it. How convenient! To totally avoided all my versus, points and arguments speaks volumes about the veracity of Premil! This continued avoidance does not promote Premil, it exposes it. I will repost:

The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

That is not true, but you still have not answered why John calls the resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection. Instead you deny that he does, as you have denied that Revelation chapter 20 says what it says when you cannot answer its challenges to the Amil doctrine you hold to, only this time, you have resorted to giving me credit for words I did not write:

"and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

John's words, not mine.

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: an another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works...And whosoever was no found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:12-15)

Looks like two separate judgments to me: One at the beginning of the thousand years and one at the end.

I don't think you get the Amil understanding. Revelation 20:6 primarily emphasizes the great deliverance over eternal punishment that comes when a sinner comes to Christ and has their part in His death, burial and resurrection. This happens through our mystical union with Christ. The reigning is purely secondary, and a direct consequence to the main promise.

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success. Basically, we learn, he that overcometh (here-and-now) will be rewarded in the future. Please read the text carefully.

Like Tony Evan says: “When Christ died, you died with him. When Christ arose, you arose with Him. When Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father, you sat down with Him. In other words, you were made to function in concert and cadence with Christ.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Both relate to life and salvation not glorification. The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

· To be an overcomer is to be a Christian.
· To be a Christian is to have your “part” in Christ’s “first resurrection.”
· What is more, to be a Christian/overcome/have your “part” in Christ’s “first resurrection” is to escape “the second death” (eternal punishment).

It is a scriptural fact, for someone to move from death and the grave (in the natural or the spiritual) to life (of either type) requires of necessity resurrection. By our very union with Christ and the victory He has already wrought for us over death we enter into the triumph of both spiritual and physical resurrection. Upon conversion we are immediately raised from spiritual death by way of spiritual resurrection. We are born again (or born from above) by being raised from the grave of sin and debauchery. It is the resurrection of the spirit that causes the new birth. When resurrected our spirits are brought from death to life, this causes a new spiritually birth within our being.

I noticed (once again) that you were unable to address and answer my simple questions re your theological position. You were unable to present one Scripture that talks about "resurrection days" for man (plural). You were unable to present one Scripture that talks about "judgement days" for man (plural). This is more evidence of the impotence of your position.

You have not been able to show me anywhere in the rest of scripture that refutes it. Show me scripture that declares the thousand year reign to be symbolic and the interpretation that it gives for the thousand years and you will be able to soundly refute Premil doctrine. But you have not done so. You simply apply a symbolic interpretation upon text that does not corroborate such an interpretation.

This is all empty words. You have avoided so much Scripture already that the reader can see that you are advancing a non-corroborative extra-biblical theory.

Contenders Edge · Sep 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You already answered your own question.

No I didn't. The point I was making is that our understanding of scripture on any given matter it addresses needs to be founded upon the full counsel that it provides. In the case of Christ's reign upon this present earth in its regenerated state, Revelation 20 is the only scripture that tells us how long that will be until it is replaced with a new creation that is superior even to the regenerated earth, but there is no evidence from Revelation 20 or any other scripture that the thousand years is symbolic. It is only presented in a literal context and therefore must be taken as such as the context demands.

sovereigngrace said:
He doesn't. You do. Christ is the first resurrection. Through that we have salvation, union with Christ and "have part" positionally in that glorious resurrection. Through Christ's victory we experience dual resurrection - spiritual and physical.

Yes he does:

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

His words, not mine. And while are resurrected spiritually, we have yet to undergo the physical resurrection as well and it is the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ that John has called the first resurrection. Even you yourself have just admitted that the physical resurrection of those who die in Christ is a part of the first resurrection despite having persistently denied otherwise:

"Through that we have salvation, union with Christ and "have part" positionally in that glorious resurrection. Through Christ's victory we experience dual resurrection - spiritual and physical."

sovereigngrace said:
You have to ignore so much clear New Testament Scripture in order for your doctrine to fit. Your fixation with Revelation 20 has hidden the rest of Scripture to you. Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

I don't have to ignore anything to make anything fit, nor is Revelation 20 hiding anything from me, but instead of interpreting scripture with scripture, you have resorted to imposing interpretations upon texts that bear no witness to it, and deny any scriptures that challenge your doctrine.

sovereigngrace said:
Since the first Advent, Satan is shown to be a conquered foe.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

No one is arguing against any of that per se, but that is not the same as being bound in the manner spoken of in Revelation 20. Satan presently is still able to roam about freely, but if he happens to be on a leash, then it is a very long leash because it allows him to travel back and forth between heaven and earth, but he will not being doing that when he is bound in the prison of which Revelation 20 speaks and the chapter describes the very kind of prison that he will be in.

But Satan has never been allowed to do anything at any given time beyond what God has allowed him to do, even before the cross, but what the cross has made certain is that Satan's end is made certain and that we can look forward to, but until then, he will fight and continue to fight against and do everything in his power to change the final outcome and that is why there continues to be a war for the souls of men between God and Satan and everyone is going to ultimately choose to side with either one or the other and their eternal fate depends on what side they choose.

sovereigngrace said:
Premils are obsessed with the enemy. It is always lauding the exploits of Satan. It wants to focus on the evil of this world. That is integral to the doctrine. Amil and Postmil is focused on Christ. It sees the glorious advance of the great commission to all that want to be free. Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Only man can stop himself. Since the first resurrection a light has been shone on the nations and Satan's territory is being invaded throughout the world as we speak. PTL.

We are not obsessed with the enemy, but we do not make light of the ongoing spiritual warfare that is currently taking place. We know that Christ will win in the end because He has already claimed the victory ahead of time, but until that victory is enforced, we continue to be at war with the forces of darkness and our focus is not on the evil of this of this world, but we cannot and will not turn a blind eye to it and pretend that it doesn't exist and the way to fight against this evil is attacking it at its very foundation which is a spiritual and moral foundation, but those who make light of the present conflict will be among the first to fall away from Christ when they are faced with it because they were not prepared to face the unseen enemy behind the conflict.

sovereigngrace said:
That is just blatantly untrue.

Is the dragon trailing stars down from heaven to earth a real dragon trailing stars down from heaven to earth?

Is the lamb with seven horns and seven eyes a real lamb with seven horns and seven eyes?

Do you know an obese woman big enough to sit on seven hills at the one time?

Do you know a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars?

So, you're expecting Christ to literally return from heaven on a white horse with many crowns on his head, and with a literal sharp sword coming out of His mouth

When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison?

Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Do you really believe that Revelation 20 is describing Satan being restrained for 'one thousand years' after the second Coming when "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount and when there is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible?

We have a dragon drawing a 1/3 of the stars of heaven to the earth.

Will a literal angel with a sun for a face and wearing a cloud descend from Heaven?

It is BLATANTLY true.

Who is to say that Satan cannot take on the form the form of Dragon? If he can take on the form of a serpent, he can take on the form of a dragon and if his expulsion of heaven causes the destruction of a third of the stars (they could be fallen angels; I don't know) that ought to be one more reason why you would want there to be a rapture before the worst time in the history of our planet takes place, but that is an entirely different subject altogether.

Who is to say that there is not an actual seven horned seven eyed lamb in Heaven serving as a representative of Christ in some way?

John did not describe the woman on seven hills as being obese. And we know this is a symbolic vision because an interpretation is given to it. The woman, however, remains obscure which is why she is called MYSTERY BABYLON and we will never know for sure exactly what she represents until that prophecy is fulfilled.

As for the woman described in Revelation 12, all we know is that she is not the Virgin Mary as Catholics have taught and she is given a place of refuge for three and a half years as Satan makes war with her offspring. Again, we will not know how all of this is going to play out until it happens.

I expect Christ to return in the manner that John said He would. As for the sword preceding from His mouth, if you knew what the sword was called, you would know whether the sword was literal or symbolic.

When the Bible depicts the wicked bound in a prison, they are bound in a prison of some sort. I don't make anymore out of it than what it says. As for any chains designed to bind evil spirits, as far as the text is concerned, they are and will be bound by chains designed to bind spirit beings.

As far as whether or not the one hour of power held by the beast is a literal sixty minutes or not, I already answered this one before and said what must be done to determine that; the most likely answer is not going to be found in that particular passage of scripture alone.

And yes, Satan is going to be literally bound to a literal prison designed for him during for a thousand years. You keep insisting that the thousand years is symbolic but you have not provided any textual evidence suggesting that to be the case. If the thousand years were symbolic, I would expect the scriptures to have told us what the thousand years symbolizes. They do not and because they do not, it must be taken as presented; a literal thousand year reign during which Satan is bound to the abyss, never to be able to roam about freely on the earth during that time.

If the Bible says that there will at some point be an angel with a face as bright as the sun and enveloped in a cloud who will come down from Heaven, then I accept it as presented.

sovereigngrace said:
You have already admitted it. It is there for everyone to read.

Admitted to what?

sovereigngrace said:
The Scripture you present does not in any way infringe the spiritual restraint that is upon Satan today. The devil has power and movement but is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

What is more, the Church is shown to exercise power over Satan since his dethroning and binding. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him.

Tony Evans states: “Satan has no authority or power over the one who is aligned under the covering of the risen and exalted Christ.”

Scripture makes clear that Satan has been defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Christ and is spiritually incapable of stopping the invasion of the truth and light to the Gentiles (ethnos) nations since the resurrection. He is hampered by spiritual chains. Only those who get close to him can be harmed. Satan cannot deceive the Gentiles anymore as a whole (like he did before Christ's earthly ministry) because the Gospel has been brought to them. This is a general broad statement that is made in Rev 20 in regard to the great commission.

First of all, as I mentioned before, no one is arguing that Satan is not limited in his power or in what he can do, but that is still not the same as being bound in the abyss for a thousand years during which time, he will not be able to cause any evil or harm in the world, but no one has to get close to him to be harmed by him when he, as Peter as said, is still roaming about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. (1. Pet. 5:8) A dog on a leash cannot go out to hunt for prey, but an unleashed uncaged lion does.

And if Satan is unable to deceive anyone anymore, then why is there so much ignorance and deception rampant in the world today? And I do not see anything in Revelation 20 that has anything to do with the great commission, although it should be obvious to anyone who reads the chapter that the Lord will already be known to all on the earth when the events foretold therein transpire.

DavidPT · Sep 13, 2020

Timtofly said:
To say Satan has been bound during the church age denies the historical record. Binding was the responsibility of the church. The church could loose and bind on earth. Seems like the church let Satan loose more often than bound due to the historical record. It is not a private interpretation. It is a very observable fact, unless some have their heads buried in the sand.

Tell me how an angel can represent the church as a whole? Then explain how the church went so wrong most of the last 1990 years? The angel in Revelation 20 will not fail like the church did in her job of keeping Satan bound.

You bring up some really good points. During the real millennium when satan is bound a thousand years in the pit, there won't be one single person during that entire period of time loosing him and binding him, and binding him and loosing him yet again, millions or even billions of times throughout the millennium. Somewhat similar to Amils take on the first resurrection. Instead of that being a one time event at the beginning of the thousand years, Amils have the first resurrection taking place millions, if not billions of times, over the course of their proposed millennium.

Premils believe the first resurrection is a one time event at or close to the beginning of the thousand years.

Amils believe the first resurrection is not a one time event, but an event that happens millions, if not billions of times, over the course of their proposed millennium.

Premils believe that when satan is bound a thousand years, he stays bound the entire time and cannot be loosed nor bound again by anyone during the thousand years.

Amils apparently believe that when satan is bound a thousand years, he doesn't stay bound the entire time and can be loosed and even bound again by anyone applying Matthew 18:18 during the thousand years.

sovereigngrace · Sep 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
You bring up some really good points. During the real millennium when satan is bound a thousand years in the pit, there won't be one single person during that entire period of time loosing him and binding him, and binding him and loosing him yet again, millions or even billions of times throughout the millennium. Somewhat similar to Amils take on the first resurrection. Instead of that being a one time event at the beginning of the thousand years, Amils have the first resurrection taking place millions, if not billions of times, over the course of their proposed millennium.

Premils believe the first resurrection is a one time event at or close to the beginning of the thousand years.

Amils believe the first resurrection is not a one time event, but an event that happens millions, if not billions of times, over the course of their proposed millennium.

Premils believe that when satan is bound a thousand years, he stays bound the entire time and cannot be loosed nor bound again by anyone during the thousand years.

Amils apparently believe that when satan is bound a thousand years, he doesn't stay bound the entire time and can be loosed and even bound again by anyone applying Matthew 18:18 during the thousand years.

You do not seem to grasp the spiritual truth of our union with Christ and our part in His life, death and resurrection.

sovereigngrace · Sep 14, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
No I didn't. The point I was making is that our understanding of scripture on any given matter it addresses needs to be founded upon the full counsel that it provides. In the case of Christ's reign upon this present earth in its regenerated state, Revelation 20 is the only scripture that tells us how long that will be until it is replaced with a new creation that is superior even to the regenerated earth, but there is no evidence from Revelation 20 or any other scripture that the thousand years is symbolic. It is only presented in a literal context and therefore must be taken as such as the context demands.

Yes he does:

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

His words, not mine. And while are resurrected spiritually, we have yet to undergo the physical resurrection as well and it is the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ that John has called the first resurrection. Even you yourself have just admitted that the physical resurrection of those who die in Christ is a part of the first resurrection despite having persistently denied otherwise:

"Through that we have salvation, union with Christ and "have part" positionally in that glorious resurrection. Through Christ's victory we experience dual resurrection - spiritual and physical."

I don't have to ignore anything to make anything fit, nor is Revelation 20 hiding anything from me, but instead of interpreting scripture with scripture, you have resorted to imposing interpretations upon texts that bear no witness to it, and deny any scriptures that challenge your doctrine.

No one is arguing against any of that per se, but that is not the same as being bound in the manner spoken of in Revelation 20. Satan presently is still able to roam about freely, but if he happens to be on a leash, then it is a very long leash because it allows him to travel back and forth between heaven and earth, but he will not being doing that when he is bound in the prison of which Revelation 20 speaks and the chapter describes the very kind of prison that he will be in.

But Satan has never been allowed to do anything at any given time beyond what God has allowed him to do, even before the cross, but what the cross has made certain is that Satan's end is made certain and that we can look forward to, but until then, he will fight and continue to fight against and do everything in his power to change the final outcome and that is why there continues to be a war for the souls of men between God and Satan and everyone is going to ultimately choose to side with either one or the other and their eternal fate depends on what side they choose.

We are not obsessed with the enemy, but we do not make light of the ongoing spiritual warfare that is currently taking place. We know that Christ will win in the end because He has already claimed the victory ahead of time, but until that victory is enforced, we continue to be at war with the forces of darkness and our focus is not on the evil of this of this world, but we cannot and will not turn a blind eye to it and pretend that it doesn't exist and the way to fight against this evil is attacking it at its very foundation which is a spiritual and moral foundation, but those who make light of the present conflict will be among the first to fall away from Christ when they are faced with it because they were not prepared to face the unseen enemy behind the conflict.

It is BLATANTLY true.

Who is to say that Satan cannot take on the form the form of Dragon? If he can take on the form of a serpent, he can take on the form of a dragon and if his expulsion of heaven causes the destruction of a third of the stars (they could be fallen angels; I don't know) that ought to be one more reason why you would want there to be a rapture before the worst time in the history of our planet takes place, but that is an entirely different subject altogether.

Who is to say that there is not an actual seven horned seven eyed lamb in Heaven serving as a representative of Christ in some way?

John did not describe the woman on seven hills as being obese. And we know this is a symbolic vision because an interpretation is given to it. The woman, however, remains obscure which is why she is called MYSTERY BABYLON and we will never know for sure exactly what she represents until that prophecy is fulfilled.

As for the woman described in Revelation 12, all we know is that she is not the Virgin Mary as Catholics have taught and she is given a place of refuge for three and a half years as Satan makes war with her offspring. Again, we will not know how all of this is going to play out until it happens.

I expect Christ to return in the manner that John said He would. As for the sword preceding from His mouth, if you knew what the sword was called, you would know whether the sword was literal or symbolic.

When the Bible depicts the wicked bound in a prison, they are bound in a prison of some sort. I don't make anymore out of it than what it says. As for any chains designed to bind evil spirits, as far as the text is concerned, they are and will be bound by chains designed to bind spirit beings.

As far as whether or not the one hour of power held by the beast is a literal sixty minutes or not, I already answered this one before and said what must be done to determine that; the most likely answer is not going to be found in that particular passage of scripture alone.

And yes, Satan is going to be literally bound to a literal prison designed for him during for a thousand years. You keep insisting that the thousand years is symbolic but you have not provided any textual evidence suggesting that to be the case. If the thousand years were symbolic, I would expect the scriptures to have told us what the thousand years symbolizes. They do not and because they do not, it must be taken as presented; a literal thousand year reign during which Satan is bound to the abyss, never to be able to roam about freely on the earth during that time.

If the Bible says that there will at some point be an angel with a face as bright as the sun and enveloped in a cloud who will come down from Heaven, then I accept it as presented.

Admitted to what?

First of all, as I mentioned before, no one is arguing that Satan is not limited in his power or in what he can do, but that is still not the same as being bound in the abyss for a thousand years during which time, he will not be able to cause any evil or harm in the world, but no one has to get close to him to be harmed by him when he, as Peter as said, is still roaming about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. (1. Pet. 5:8) A dog on a leash cannot go out to hunt for prey, but an unleashed uncaged lion does.

And if Satan is unable to deceive anyone anymore, then why is there so much ignorance and deception rampant in the world today? And I do not see anything in Revelation 20 that has anything to do with the great commission, although it should be obvious to anyone who reads the chapter that the Lord will already be known to all on the earth when the events foretold therein transpire.

And what evidence do you bring to the table? The full gamut of Scripture? No. Your mistaken opinion of Rev 20. That is it. When your opinion is shown to be mistaken, you ignore the multiple Scriptures in view. This gets old after a while.

Contenders Edge · Sep 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
This is just one example of many that forbids your theory. This alone demolishes the Premil paradigm of more of the same after the second coming. Your response is to explain away another clear passage by your faulty understanding of one uncorroborated chapter in the most obscure setting in Scripture (ironically the one chapter that Premils are fixated with - Revelation 20). It is the lens they interpret the whole of Scripture with. Shocking!

No it doesn't and it is called interpreting scripture with scripture which does not explain away anything when there appears to be a conflict between two different passages of scripture pertaining to a related matter but that conflict has to be resolved by an understanding that all the passages of scripture involved support and bear witness to and you have failed to show anything faulty about the premil understanding of Revelation 20 and persist on imposing a symbolic interpretation on a self-corroborating text that bears no witness to it. If Revelation 20 were symbolic, we should expect to find it presented to us as being symbolic with the interpretation of the events given by by the scriptures but we do not find that and that is what would be needed for your claim of the events described therein to be supported, but that which is needed to support the claim that it is symbolic is lacking in the context.

sovereigngrace said:
This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. Firstly this age is a reward for the redeemed. The Premil scheme falls apart at this point as it saturates the new earth with unregenerate mortal rebels. In fact, they reward those who attack Jerusalem just prior to the second coming and usher them into the semi-corrupt semi-glorious millennial age.

No one is arguing that any of the wicked will be allowed to populate the earth when Christ returns and your claim that Premils reward those who attack Jerusalem is blatantly false. I have yet to hear a Premil claim that the wicked are going to get rewarded for attacking Jerusalem.
Yet it appears that you have not ruled out the righteous from populating the earth. Do you even know what "populate" means? It means more than just living there, it means to produce offspring and yet you have been holding to the position that there will be no more children born after Christ returns

sovereigngrace said:
While marriage takes place in "this age/world," Christ tells us that it will not take place in "that age/world," which follows the resurrection. There is no marriage after the resurrection because Christ ushers in the eternal state which requires perfect spiritual bodies instead of corrupt physical bodies. The glorified saints will have perfected bodies, just like the elect angels. There will be no more separation, sin or death. Marriage is therefore terminated, because it represents division between human beings.

Then you do not know why God created marriage in the first place and since you make it sound like such a bad thing, why did YOU get married?

sovereigngrace said:
The reality is: those who experience the age to come are not expressly mortals (they don’t die). This obviously exclusively refers to the perfected glorified saints. Those that are “accounted worthy” in Scripture are the elect. Thus, those that “obtain that age” which is to come are those that have been glorified at the resurrection. They enter the eternal age and don’t “die any more” – “for they are equal unto the angels.”

That may be true in the new heavens and the new earth, but Revelation 20 is clearly an intermission between the second coming of Christ, during which the surviving mortal saints are permitted to enter into that intermission and repopulate the earth; hence the vast multitude who feebly attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ at the end of that intermission. Who else would they be?

sovereigngrace said:
This is all you have: "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20," "according to Revelation 20." Do you not see the folly of this mantra that Premils employ? Does it not disturb you? Do you not see that it is unscriptural?

Premil has only one string to their guitar and it is making a very monotonous sound: “what saith Revelation 20?”

That is all we really need. It speaks for itself and corroborates itself.

sovereigngrace said:
The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove.

American and British Law demands corroboration, they were built upon OT principles.

God’s truth is not built upon logic. Logic is human reasoning and runs contrary to God's mind. It is fleshly, dangerous and unreliable. It is mere personal opinion. Truth is built solely on Scripture. Romans 4:3 rightly asks, “For what saith the Scripture?"

We must therefore interpret Scripture with Scripture and not by the man’s innovative religious constraints, history books, ancient or modern writings, eschatological books/novels, archaeology or, as is popular today in this day of apostasy, human reasoning. When examining Scripture we must throw off the heavy theological chains that men place on us, decommission our flawed natural mind-set, as it is mainly contrary to God’s mind, and embrace the simple meaning of the passage that is determined by context, location and wording.

....We must always interpret Scripture in a manner that does not conflict with other clear passages. If it does, that interpretation must be rejected and further study should be committed to determine the correct interpretation that harmonizes with the full context of Scripture.

If one is to impose ‘an unqualified sweeping literalist understanding on all Scripture unless it is impossible to do so’, then they are forcing a partial bias upon Holy Writ, thus creating a preconceived notion on Scripture, before trying to ascertain its sense and setting. You end up artificially producing a desired end.

Amils rightly use the whole of Scripture to ascertain what will happen at the end and the age to come. You use your opinion of one chapter. Scripture rebukes your flawed hermeneutics.

Amil violates all that you have just said in regards to how you have claimed that scripture must be understood. When presented with seemingly conflicting scripture, you try to get around this by imposing an interpretation on either one or both passages of scripture that is not corroborated by the context of both and because Revelation 20, which appears to be in conflict with other passages of scripture regarding the return of Christ, does not contextually support the symbolic interpretation, then by the standards you just described:

"We must always interpret Scripture in a manner that does not conflict with other clear passages. If it does, that interpretation must be rejected and further study should be committed to determine the correct interpretation that harmonizes with the full context of Scripture."

the Amil doctrine must be rejected because it is not supported by the context of all scripture involved and therefore is an unqualified symbolic understanding of Revelation 20 because the context of the chapter does not bear witness to it. In order for the symbolic interpretation to qualify, not only must the scriptures you have cited bear witness to that, but so must Revelation 20, yet you have been unable to prove from the context of Revelation 20 that a symbolic rendering is a reasonable and qualifying understanding.

sovereigngrace said:
The glorified saints alone are worthy to populate the glorified new earth when Jesus comes.

I didn't know the glorified saints were going to have children.

Contenders Edge · Sep 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
And what evidence do you bring to the table? The full gamut of Scripture? No. Your mistaken opinion of Rev 20. That is it. When your opinion is shown to be mistaken, you ignore the multiple Scriptures in view. This gets old after a while.

If you want to be able to prove that my opinion of Revelation 20 is mistaken, which isn't really my opinion at all but the Apostle John's divinely inspired revelation, you would have to prove from the very chapter itself that my opinion is mistaken. All you have been able to do is impose interpretations and explanations thereon to which it does not bear witness and falsely accuse me of ignoring multiple scriptures while refusing to accept that Revelation 20 is a self-evident passage of scripture presented in a literal future tense format, and if this debate is getting tiresome, then you are free to end it any time you wish, but if you persist in keeping going, then that decision lies with you alone.

sovereigngrace · Sep 14, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
No I didn't. The point I was making is that our understanding of scripture on any given matter it addresses needs to be founded upon the full counsel that it provides. In the case of Christ's reign upon this present earth in its regenerated state, Revelation 20 is the only scripture that tells us how long that will be until it is replaced with a new creation that is superior even to the regenerated earth, but there is no evidence from Revelation 20 or any other scripture that the thousand years is symbolic. It is only presented in a literal context and therefore must be taken as such as the context demands.

Not only do you deny the detail of Revelation 20 showing the curtailment of Satan during the intra-advent great commission, but you deny the import of apocalyptic language. What is more, Moses (Deuteronomy 1:10-11, 7:9, and 32:30), the prophets (Joshua 23:10, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17, Song of Solomon 4:4, Job 9:2-3, Job 33:23, Ecclesiastes 6:3, 6-7, 7:27-28, Psalm 50:10-11, Psalm 84:9-10, 90:3-5, 91:5-7, 105:4, 8-10, Isaiah 7:22-24, 30:17, 60:21-22, Amos 5:1-4 and Micah 6:7) and the NT writers (2 Peter 3:3-4, Rev 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7) used the phrases "a thousand" or "a thousand years" figuratively. On top of that: society uses (and totally comprehends) the symbolic thrust of "a thousand" or "a thousand years."

Yes he does:

"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Rev. 20:4-5)

His words, not mine. And while are resurrected spiritually, we have yet to undergo the physical resurrection as well and it is the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ that John has called the first resurrection. Even you yourself have just admitted that the physical resurrection of those who die in Christ is a part of the first resurrection despite having persistently denied otherwise:

"Through that we have salvation, union with Christ and "have part" positionally in that glorious resurrection. Through Christ's victory we experience dual resurrection - spiritual and physical."

Again, that is your opinion of the only passage you have to support your eschatology. Revelation runs from the First to the Second Advent.

I don't have to ignore anything to make anything fit, nor is Revelation 20 hiding anything from me, but instead of interpreting scripture with scripture, you have resorted to imposing interpretations upon texts that bear no witness to it, and deny any scriptures that challenge your doctrine.

You just ignored a bunch of proof texts I submitted and simply answered with your opinion of Revelation 20. This is your MO. You have clearly nothing to bring to the table and much to avoid. You have to ignore so much clear New Testament Scripture in order for your doctrine to fit. Your fixation with Revelation 20 has hidden the rest of Scripture to you. Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

No one is arguing against any of that per se, but that is not the same as being bound in the manner spoken of in Revelation 20. Satan presently is still able to roam about freely, but if he happens to be on a leash, then it is a very long leash because it allows him to travel back and forth between heaven and earth, but he will not being doing that when he is bound in the prison of which Revelation 20 speaks and the chapter describes the very kind of prison that he will be in.

But Satan has never been allowed to do anything at any given time beyond what God has allowed him to do, even before the cross, but what the cross has made certain is that Satan's end is made certain and that we can look forward to, but until then, he will fight and continue to fight against and do everything in his power to change the final outcome and that is why there continues to be a war for the souls of men between God and Satan and everyone is going to ultimately choose to side with either one or the other and their eternal fate depends on what side they choose.

First, Satan has been banished from 2000 years ago. So your long leash argument is moot.
Second, you cannot deny that Christ bound the strongman 2000 years ago. The Scriptures state that.
Third, you have to invent a binding that is not really a binding in order to explain your position.
Fourth, a spirit is not held within a physical prison with metal chains. That is absurd. We are looking at at spiritual curtailment of his influence and

The only power that Satan possesses is that which man gives him. If every single human being on this earth ignored him, he would be totally impotent. But, there is a twisted tendency within man that prefers the voice of Satan to the voice of God.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection / ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Here, in correlation with Revelation 20, we see the end of Satan unchallenged deceiving of the Gentiles. John declares: "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ." How?

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Firstly, repeated Scripture uses binding in a figurative sense. The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

The strongman was bound 2000 years ago according to Jesus. He invaded the Devil’s house, chained him and took a spoil. We are part of that spoil. This is figurative language.

Secondly, Christ’s first resurrection was the start of the evangelization of the Gentiles. Most people see that in the New Testament. The Gentiles are depicted in the OT as being outside of hope, blind, in gross darkness, rebellious, bound in chains and in a prison. That all changed after the resurrection of Christ. The NT is a picture of Gentile evangelizing. That is all Rev 20 is saying. There is zero corroboration for Premil scenario of the binding of Satan at the second coming and his release 1000 years later to deceive the millennial inhabitants as the sand of the sea. Amils have many passages that teaches the binding, curtailing, defeating and subjugation of Satan 2000 years ago. They also have many Scriptures that show Christ is the first resurrection.

Even though the Scriptures make many sweeping statements about the Gentiles been deceived in the Old Testament it did not mean that there was none that believed. Just like it makes sweeping statements about the Gentiles being enlightened in the New Testament, does not suggest that the most of them actually believed. These are just broad generalized. Scripture is full of them.

Thirdly, before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God's people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot stop the enlightenment of the nations. Jesus opened heaven up to the elect (both living and dead) When he defeated sin, death, Satan and Hades. He consequently emptied Abraham's bosom and took the dead in Christ in heaven.

We are not obsessed with the enemy, but we do not make light of the ongoing spiritual warfare that is currently taking place. We know that Christ will win in the end because He has already claimed the victory ahead of time, but until that victory is enforced, we continue to be at war with the forces of darkness and our focus is not on the evil of this of this world, but we cannot and will not turn a blind eye to it and pretend that it doesn't exist and the way to fight against this evil is attacking it at its very foundation which is a spiritual and moral foundation, but those who make light of the present conflict will be among the first to fall away from Christ when they are faced with it because they were not prepared to face the unseen enemy behind the conflict.

He is a defeated accuser, according to Scripture. He is cast down. The chains he had on the Gentiles have now been placed on him. Christ now reigns over all His enemies. I realize in your theology Satan is BIG and Christ is dethroned. The Bible portrays the opposite picture.

I struggle to accept that you cannot see the colossal difference of the state of the Gentiles between before Christ and His first resurrection and after. Maybe your end-time theology is preventing you from admitting the obvious. The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

sovereigngrace · Sep 14, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
It is BLATANTLY true.

Who is to say that Satan cannot take on the form the form of Dragon? If he can take on the form of a serpent, he can take on the form of a dragon and if his expulsion of heaven causes the destruction of a third of the stars (they could be fallen angels; I don't know) that ought to be one more reason why you would want there to be a rapture before the worst time in the history of our planet takes place, but that is an entirely different subject altogether.

Who is to say that there is not an actual seven horned seven eyed lamb in Heaven serving as a representative of Christ in some way?

John did not describe the woman on seven hills as being obese. And we know this is a symbolic vision because an interpretation is given to it. The woman, however, remains obscure which is why she is called MYSTERY BABYLON and we will never know for sure exactly what she represents until that prophecy is fulfilled.

As for the woman described in Revelation 12, all we know is that she is not the Virgin Mary as Catholics have taught and she is given a place of refuge for three and a half years as Satan makes war with her offspring. Again, we will not know how all of this is going to play out until it happens.

I expect Christ to return in the manner that John said He would. As for the sword preceding from His mouth, if you knew what the sword was called, you would know whether the sword was literal or symbolic.

When the Bible depicts the wicked bound in a prison, they are bound in a prison of some sort. I don't make anymore out of it than what it says. As for any chains designed to bind evil spirits, as far as the text is concerned, they are and will be bound by chains designed to bind spirit beings.

As far as whether or not the one hour of power held by the beast is a literal sixty minutes or not, I already answered this one before and said what must be done to determine that; the most likely answer is not going to be found in that particular passage of scripture alone.

And yes, Satan is going to be literally bound to a literal prison designed for him during for a thousand years. You keep insisting that the thousand years is symbolic but you have not provided any textual evidence suggesting that to be the case. If the thousand years were symbolic, I would expect the scriptures to have told us what the thousand years symbolizes. They do not and because they do not, it must be taken as presented; a literal thousand year reign during which Satan is bound to the abyss, never to be able to roam about freely on the earth during that time.

If the Bible says that there will at some point be an angel with a face as bright as the sun and enveloped in a cloud who will come down from Heaven, then I accept it as presented.

Your obsession with literalism is blinding you to the spiritual import of the symbols. Sad!

Admitted to what?

Your doctrine is built upon your private interpretation of one highly-symbolic chapter.

First of all, as I mentioned before, no one is arguing that Satan is not limited in his power or in what he can do, but that is still not the same as being bound in the abyss for a thousand years during which time, he will not be able to cause any evil or harm in the world, but no one has to get close to him to be harmed by him when he, as Peter as said, is still roaming about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. (1. Pet. 5:8) A dog on a leash cannot go out to hunt for prey, but an unleashed uncaged lion does.

And if Satan is unable to deceive anyone anymore, then why is there so much ignorance and deception rampant in the world today? And I do not see anything in Revelation 20 that has anything to do with the great commission, although it should be obvious to anyone who reads the chapter that the Lord will already be known to all on the earth when the events foretold therein transpire.

From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in an invisible spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations. It is a spiritual condition of restraint that prevents them from curtailing the Gospel advance to the ethnos (Gentiles).

The dog can go as far as the chain takes him. So, it is with Satan. The restraint he is under restricts his movement, thus curtailing the injury he can inflict. If you get close to a dangerous dog on a leash you will normally experience the consequences. It will bite you. Stay away from it and you will be fine. The reality is, a prisoner in a prison can walk, move, roam even do vice and injury, but that does not negate the fact he is restricted behind bars. Satan is a spiritual being that resides within a spiritual prison since his defeat at the cross.

sovereigngrace · Sep 14, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If you want to be able to prove that my opinion of Revelation 20 is mistaken, which isn't really my opinion at all but the Apostle John's divinely inspired revelation, you would have to prove from the very chapter itself that my opinion is mistaken. All you have been able to do is impose interpretations and explanations thereon to which it does not bear witness and falsely accuse me of ignoring multiple scriptures while refusing to accept that Revelation 20 is a self-evident passage of scripture presented in a literal future tense format, and if this debate is getting tiresome, then you are free to end it any time you wish, but if you persist in keeping going, then that decision lies with you alone.

Not so! Quite the opposite! You cannot even accept Christ's first resurrection in Revelation 20. You apply that to the believers at the second coming. This shows how far you are off on your theology. You cannot grasp the figurative import of apocalyptic language. You literalize what is symbolic and symbolize what is literal. You refuse to acknowledge the figurative use of "a thousand" throughout Scripture and history. You are always exalting the influence of Satan. You portray a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a BIG devil. This is a defeated theology.

You deny corroboration and argue that your opinion of Rev 20 is suffice to explain, when Scripture warns against that, arguing for interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads