How bad a heretic and who is with me?

Paul4JC

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He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [1Jo 2:2 NIV]

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
[1Jo 4:10 NIV]
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I know scripture supports this but it really makes no common sense. God's hands seem tied by his own law and righteousness. Too OT for me.

I can understand some of the repulsion that comes from thinking that God is somehow satisfied by actual blood, but in Scripture, the whole point of blood is as a token reference to the fact that a death has taken place. And it's death, not blood, that God requires. The kicker is that we all know the Bible also says that God doesn't take pleasure in the blood of animals nor in the death of the wicked. So, it's seems God leans in the direction of common sense here.

Moreover, God is transrational and has clearly gone beyond typical human common sense in having decided to provide for (and in a sense actually becoming) the "death" that satisfies His state of Holiness. Usually, it isn't common sense for a person to die for another person, especially if Darwinian evolution is taken into account ... but here we see in the Bible God offering His love to us on our behalf to do for us what we ourselves can't do in bridging the gap that human sin leaves in the human and God relationship.

So, as a philosopher myself, I understand how you'd want things to 'make sense,' but in seeing God being willing to fulfill His own requirements, it's hard for me to say, "Uh no, that makes no sense!" :rolleyes:
 
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hedrick

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I know scripture supports this but it really makes no common sense. God's hands seem tied by his own law and righteousness. Too OT for me.
I'm not so sure that Scripture actually supports this. There are many ideas of the atonement. Yes, Jesus died for us. But that doesn't mean that God demands punishment before he can forgive. That's a fairly late theory of the atonement.

I would claim that Jesus' own teachings contradict this. He teaches that God is eager to forgive us. No sign that punishment needed. There are two parables in which people object that God is being unjust in forgiving without satisfying our ideas of justice: the older brother in the prodigal son, and the workers in the vineyard.

I believe several of the prophets said that sacrifice isn't needed. Some people claim it's just sacrifice by hypocrites, but I think Is 66:1-4 seems pretty unqualified. This argument works best if you're not a fundamentalist, since it suggests that some of Leviticus is not God's final word. However even if you think God actually established sacrifice, it's far from clear that it is vicarious punishment. Can you punish grain? I understand sacrifice as a sacrament, a way of making clear the penitent's seriousness about repentance. Remember that sacrifice isn't just for sins. There are also sacrifices to ratify making a covenant.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Moreover, God is transrational and goes beyond typical human common sense in deciding to provide for (and in a sense actually becoming) the "death" that satisfies His state of Holiness. Usually, it isn't common sense for a person to die for another person, especially if Darwinian evolution is taken into account ... but here we see in the Bible God offering His love for us to do for us what we ourselves can't do to bridge the gap that human sin leaves in the human and God relationship.
Transrational, yes. But it sounds like God (as Father) cannot forgive the humans he created unless God (as Son) incarnates as one of them and gets crucified. That is somehow a justification for the entire human race and now God (as Father) can forgive.

In the Old Testament transactional context of the temple sacrifice it makes some sense because the person offering sacrifice is purchasing or losing the poor lamb. But in the crucifixion Jesus is the one suffering. It is like God (as innocent victim) sacrificing to God as Father n need of appeasement) on behalf of humans who are hapless.

I more favor the Moral Example theory of atonement than penal substitution.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [1Jo 2:2 NIV]

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
[1Jo 4:10 NIV]
I don't argue the scripture. But I do think for many they are simply nice words without much
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I'm not so sure that Scripture actually supports this. There are many ideas of the atonement. Yes, Jesus died for us. But that doesn't mean that God demands punishment before he can forgive. That's a fairly late theory of the atonement.

I would claim that Jesus' own teachings contradict this. He teaches that God is eager to forgive us. No sign that punishment needed. There are two parables in which people object that God is being unjust in forgiving without satisfying our ideas of justice: the older brother in the prodigal son, and the workers in the vineyard.

I believe several of the prophets said that sacrifice isn't needed. Some people claim it's just sacrifice by hypocrites, but I think Is 66:1-4 seems pretty unqualified. This argument works best if you're not a fundamentalist, since it suggests that some of Leviticus is not God's final word. However even if you think God actually established sacrifice, it's far from clear that it is vicarious punishment. Can you punish grain? I understand sacrifice as a sacrament, a way of making clear the penitent's seriousness about repentance. Remember that sacrifice isn't just for sins. There are also sacrifices to ratify making a covenant.
Some very good points I, for one, have not considered.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Weak analogy. So we do not create the CO2. It already existed. We just recycle it with some new meaning.
Actually the CO2 is a byproduct of the metabolism of sugars in the Krebs' Cycle. So we DO create it. Make it from carbohydrates and O2. Your body digests fats and carbohydrates and proteins, stores some of it as fat, some as sugars. When your body needs food it turns fats or proteins into sugars, they go through the blood to cells that need it, they produce CO2, and you breathe it out. The CO2 was MADE in your body from sugars made from other things that were food.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Don't confuse the Bible with the religion. One pursues the Kingdom of God while the other pursues itself.

Do you actually agree that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross had noting to do with paying for our sins?
 
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timothyu

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Do you actually agree that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross had noting to do with paying for our sins?
Man killed Jesus as God knew we would. The sacrifice was to prove worthiness of hybrid Jesus to become King of the Father's new Kingdom by doing only the Father's will alone. He passed the test apparently. That opened the door for others willing to reject the will of mankind in favour of the will of God. Look at how many fail that test during election cycles, especially Christians who assume they have no part in their own salvation.. :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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By saying repent, rid ourselves of our self serving ways. His will... not ours.

So God makes us repent against our will? That doesn’t make any sense. Why would Jesus and the apostles tell everyone to repent if they have no choice in whether or not they will repent?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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So God makes us repent against our will? That doesn’t make any sense. Why would Jesus and the apostles tell everyone to repent if they have no choice in whether or not they will repent?
I can see a conversion or change of will on our part with some repentance. But an innocent person sacrificed for the guilty? That is what I don't get.


Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong. So we are to understand that the death of Jesus gained favor with God the Father. What does that say about the Father?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I can see a conversion or change of will on our part with some repentance. But an innocent person sacrificed for the guilty? That is what I don't get.


Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong. So we are to understand that the death of Jesus gained favor with God the Father. What does that say about the Father?

Because Jesus was innocent of any sin He is the only one who could make the sacrifice without having eternal consequences. So Jesus accepted the consequences saving us from eternal damnation but His consequences were only temporary. So in a sense it was a small sacrifice for the greater good when you look at the whole picture.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Because Jesus was innocent of any sin He is the only one who could make the sacrifice without having eternal consequences.

That is very OT, the spotless lamb. But God is God. He could have written it all off, like the Father of the prodigal son.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That is very OT, the spotless lamb. But God is God. He could have written it all off, like the Father of the prodigal son.

I get where your coming from because I’ve asked the same questions and the only thing I can come up with is there has to be a reason that The Father has decided for it to be this way. I believe there’s some sort of reason behind this that has not been revealed to us.
 
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