Noah's Flood

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All life was wiped out God repeats that more than once. America didn't even exist then the world was one piece of land, the flood tore apart the land creating the continents.

And again you ignore the fact that the rainbow was Gods promise to never send another flood like it. if the flood was local to the Israelites then there have been many floods just like it since. You don't build an ark for animals just for a local flood.

Dude your getting it, were not talking about that along ago, if you go by they bible the flood happened 4300 years ago. The Pyramids were built 5k years ago...the flood would have destroyed them. There are there are man made structures over 10k years old..the flood would have destroyed them as well.
 
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HappyHope

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Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

It sounds like you do believe in the possibility God exists just not the God of the Bible. Or maybe it is just Bible interpretation you challenge? Not all Christians interpret Genesis literally especially Creation or the Flood. You seem to understand this. Some like myself do.

As for the Bible containing Jewish myths, I had a Bible Archeology professor who was shocked to learn from Israeli archeologists themselves they often see chunks of the Old Testament as untrue save the historic sections. So you are definitely not alone in your belief system.

I'm not sure of all of your beliefs about what we believe or you interpretation of the what the Bible says but I would like to help you out. The Bible does not claim the earth is flat. There is lots of imagery that might be interpreted in a number of ways I suppose.

As for germs, the ancient Jewish cleanliness rules for washing were well ahead of their time. God knew about germs and his people were helped by this. The Jews were less affected by things like the Black Plague because they followed Old Testament washing rules. The Jews were even blamed for causing the Plague by some groups for having higher survival rates.

Not sure how much sickness they assumed was of a demonic nature. Some Christians today still hold to that kind of stand--as in demon activity behind every pain or sickness. The unseen spiritual realm is there but full of unknowns for us. Lots of different interpretations.

Evidence for the Flood has been covered by so many smart, educated people. If you want evidence, you can find it easily. Scientific proof strictly requires a recreation of the event. That is the standard of proof by secular means.

This is why creation theories of both a secular and Christian nature remain only a theory. No one can recreate the beginning of the world. So until an event can be recreated, one must look at the evidence alone. The Flood is also about evidence. We cannot recreate a global flood. There is evidence even without cracking open a Bible.

And sometimes even when you are not looking, you can find evidence. Last year our family went hiking up in the Sacramento Mountains in New Mexico. We went off a beaten path. We found several fossils on the very top of the ridge we climbed. I kept two. They are of sea creatures. It is very obvious. There were lots of barnacle type fossils but the ones I kept were distinctly sea shell types. I shared pics on my facebook account and others agreed.

I would have grabbed more but they were kind of heavy and we were hot and tired. We had been warned we would find fossils in that area. We didn't understand what they meant. Now we do. My point--why would sea fossils be on the tops of mountains? Curious stuff.

Sorry if I got long-winded. I hope you find the evidence you are looking for in your own search.
 
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ZNP

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Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.
Only one little problem with this exposition. At the end of the last ice age we know there were huge floods that came down out of the tallest mountains. The biggest was out of the Himalayas. From the size of the ripple marks we can tell that these floods were 20 feet deep. We also had one out of the Rockies. There is a reference to this in those cartoon movies called "Ice Age". The theory is that there were great ice dams in the mountains that broke. The problem with that theory is that as we watch mountain glaciers melt we haven't seen any ice dams created.

Also your timeline is off, a little over 4,000 years ago was when Abraham was called.

Couple of other issues, if the tallest mountain was around 5 miles high you assume that a flood coming off the top of the highest mountain 20 feet deep is a flood that is about 5 miles deep. Seriously? You think anyone would describe a flood that is 5 miles deep as being 20 feet higher than the highest mountain? No what they described is what Geologists have confirmed, a flood 20 feet deep came off the highest mountains and spread across the land. You can see giant ripple marks from the land near the Himalayas and Rockies.

Another unexplained piece of evidence, at the end of the last ice age hundreds of species all went extinct on all the continents. There is no valid explanation for this. Some have attributed this to humans hunting them to extinction. Doesn't make sense, we tried to hunt the buffalo to extinction, mowing them down in great heaps so the Indians would lose them. How do you hunt a saber toothed tiger to extinction with those primitive weapons and much, much smaller tribes. Also, where is the archaeological evidence? You would expect pelts and bones and all kinds of evidence. So since this theory has no evidence to support it the next theory is that disease wiped them out. What disease affects a hundred different species on six different continents at the same time? Again doesn't make sense. Also, look at the domesticated animals that we have today on Earth. All but llamas and guinea pigs are from Mesopotamia. The only explanation for that is the one given in the Bible, Noah built a huge boat like a barn and saved all the domesticated animals. This does have evidence in that over 50 different stories of this happening have been found in a great variety of different cultures, many of which were completely isolated.
 
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JacksBratt

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Science facts are like dominoes. If you knock over the first one the others fall too!

creationists tend to forget that! Which is the reason their pseudoscientific explanations don’t work

Jack, or these were stories of local floods that people exaggerated out of terror . Look at the wildfires out west . I couldn’t imagine living through that as I live nowhere near there .

I suppose if my great great great x 100 greats grandparents had lived through an environmental catastrophe, that it would have become part of the extended family lore.
Bright... in those days... of Adam, Noah and such... they lived for almost a millennia...

Therefore.. Adam knew Methuselah and Methuselah knew Shem.. Shem outlived Abraham...

This simple fact destroys the whole "broken telephone" and Great x 100 grandparents exaggeration scenario.
 
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JacksBratt

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Or you say the old testament is part History & Myth. I tend to lean more on the new testament. Every culture has history and the old testament tells the history of the Jewish people. Every culture on the planet has there own myths and legends. For me the bible is book that helps guide you on having a relationship with god.
That's fine..

However, myself... I hold that the Bible OT and NT are the living words of our God... Penned by men.. inspired by God.

I hold that Christ Himself used the words of this "myth" as you call it... as a weapon against the greatest accuser and deceiver in the universe...

However, those that want to cherry pick what they want to consider as fact.. and what they consider poetry, allegory, metaphor... in order to satisfy their human knowledge.. based on there allegiance to mere mortal, atheistic, Darwinian evolutionists.... That's up to them.

Kinda like the canvas telling the other parts of the painting all about what the artist really meant... while being contrary to what the artist has said himself.

Does the clay know more than the potter?

Does the paint know more than the painter?

Does the rock know more than the sculptor?

Does the wood know more than the carpenter?

Do the sheep know more than the shepherd?
 
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JacksBratt

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Dude your getting it, were not talking about that along ago, if you go by they bible the flood happened 4300 years ago. The Pyramids were built 5k years ago...the flood would have destroyed them. There are there are man made structures over 10k years old..the flood would have destroyed them as well.
There are actually many structures that are thought to be antediluvian
 
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mindlight

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Radiocarbon isn’t the only radiodating method . There are about 30 short lived radioactive nuclides that no longer exist naturally on earth that point to the fact that earth is old .

Al-26 IIRC is just one of them . The difference between C14 being used and the fact of these ghost nuclides, is that C14 is being continually made by radiation in the atmosphere. Living organisms breath it in and use the carbon to build their bodies. After death they don’t intake any more.

The other radioactive nuclides are non-renewing . Which means they DONT continually reform by natural processes on earth .

Here’s the kicker! . All short-lived non-renewing radionuclides with half-lives of 8million years or less are not found on earth because they’ve decayed away completely.

let’s give it 40 half-lives of 8 million years. Which is 40x 8million or 320 million years . Which basically means you’re cutting something in half 40 times .

If you start with a billion tons of pure substance (2000,000,000,000 lbs ) you’ll end up with a 1lb after 40 half-lives ( half a kilogram)

the earth is much, much older than 320 million years ! So these 30 elemental nuclides don’t exist on earth anymore .

so how do we know these aren’t fairytales ?
1 Nuclear physicists can recreate them in the lab.
2 sometimes we find stable daughter products


There’s no doubt that the earth is old . Multiple lines of Verifiable evidence point that out from multiple fields of science . This is physics and geologists on CF have given you geological evidence.

Uniformitarian evidentialism simply does not work with unanalogous supernatural events like creation, fall and flood. The most consistent models can simply be wrong and we have no way of proving them with some repeatable experiment or even explaining why they are wrong. So neither creationist science or mainstream science makes sense to me when it starts to speculate like you are doing. But fossils form in sedimentary rocks and lie in uniform global patterns in the geological record. You could get a ghost nuclide in rock that was only very partially its parental isotope in first place. To assume millions of years for a decay that was only decades. The possibility of a parent that NEVER existed outside of a lab also springs to mind or a daughter that was created as we find them today.
 
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Quartermaine

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Evidence for the Flood has been covered by so many smart, educated people. If you want evidence, you can find it easily. Scientific proof strictly requires a recreation of the event. That is the standard of proof by secular means.
no it doesn't

No one has to recreate gravity to prove gravity exists.



This is why creation theories of both a secular and Christian nature remain only a theory. No one can recreate the beginning of the world.

A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. The theory of gravitation, for instance, explains why apples fall from trees and astronauts float in space.

In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that scientific tests should be able to provide empirical support for it, or empirical contradiction ("falsify") of it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge

Creationist theories aren't theories at all because they are not based on observation or experimentation, they don't explain anything about the world or how it works. And they aren't based on evidence

So until an event can be recreated, one must look at the evidence alone. The Flood is also about evidence. We cannot recreate a global flood. There is evidence even without cracking open a Bible.

And sometimes even when you are not looking, you can find evidence. Last year our family went hiking up in the Sacramento Mountains in New Mexico. We went off a beaten path. We found several fossils on the very top of the ridge we climbed. I kept two. They are of sea creatures. It is very obvious. There were lots of barnacle type fossils but the ones I kept were distinctly sea shell types. I shared pics on my facebook account and others agreed.

I would have grabbed more but they were kind of heavy and we were hot and tired. We had been warned we would find fossils in that area. We didn't understand what they meant. Now we do. My point--why would sea fossils be on the tops of mountains? Curious stuff.

Sorry if I got long-winded. I hope you find the evidence you are looking for in your own search.
marine fossils on mountains? try plate tectonics.
 
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Quartermaine

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Another unexplained piece of evidence, at the end of the last ice age hundreds of species all went extinct on all the continents. There is no valid explanation for this.
species evolved to for life in tundra like conditions of extreme cold and dryness dying off when those conditions go away? Yeah that is a mystery

Some have attributed this to humans hunting them to extinction. Doesn't make sense, we tried to hunt the buffalo to extinction, mowing them down in great heaps so the Indians would lose them. How do you hunt a saber toothed tiger to extinction with those primitive weapons and much, much smaller tribes. Also, where is the archaeological evidence?
you mean the evidence that when human being came to settle an area the rate of extinction for big mammals rose?


Felisa A. Smith Rosemary E. Elliott Smith S. Kathleen Lyons, J. L. Payne Body size downgrading of mammals over the late Quaternary Science 20 Apr 2018:

M. Cardillo, G. M. Mace, K. E. Jones, J. Bielby, O. R. Bininda-Emonds, W. Sechrest, C. D. Orme, A. Purvis, Multiple causes of high extinction risk in large mammal species. Science 309, 1239–1241 (2005).

G. Ceballos, P. R. Ehrlich, A. D. Barnosky, A. García, R. M. Pringle, T. M. Palmer, Accelerated modern human-induced species losses. Sci. Adv. (2015).

R. Dirzo, H. S. Young, M. Galetti, G. Ceballos, N. J. B. Isaac, B. Collen, Defaunation in the Anthropocene. Science 345, 401–406 (2014)

S. K. Lyons et al., Of mice, mastodons and men: Human-mediated extinctions on four continents. Evol. Ecol. Res. 6, 339–358 (2004).

T. Surovell, N. M. Waguespack, “Human prey choice in the Late Pleistocene and its relation to megafaunal extinctions” in American Megafaunal Extinctions at the End of the Pleistocene, G. Hayes, Ed. (Springer, 2009)

R. E. Plotnick F. A. Smith, S. K. Lyons
The fossil record of the sixth extinction. Ecol. Lett. 19, (2016).


11,000 years ago, when human's first came to the America's the average mass of a non-human mammal in North America was about 200 pounds. Now it's about 15 pounds.

You would expect pelts and bones and all kinds of evidence. So since this theory has no evidence to support it
see above
 
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Job 33:6

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And of course the extinction of megafauna could have been a combination of all of the above^ as well, climate change, disease, overhunting etc. And most likely was. Mankind has a well known history of over hunting, climate change has a well known history of causing extinctions and mankind has a well known history of spreading disease.
 
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HappyHope

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no it doesn't

No one has to recreate gravity to prove gravity exists.





A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. The theory of gravitation, for instance, explains why apples fall from trees and astronauts float in space.

In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that scientific tests should be able to provide empirical support for it, or empirical contradiction ("falsify") of it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge

Creationist theories aren't theories at all because they are not based on observation or experimentation, they don't explain anything about the world or how it works. And they aren't based on evidence


marine fossils on mountains? try plate tectonics.

Viewpoints often come down to how we choose to interpret the evidence based on our worldview. Our interpretations differ.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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and that explains why cave dwelling animals live for thousands of years and grow to gigantic proportions....oh wait....they don't do that.
The greenland shark does continue growing which lives in the deep ocean. It would fit this model better than cave dwelling creatures as well. They are know to live to over 400 years old and as they live so deep they are not commonly seen no one knows how old they can live to.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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It must have been misinformation, it's factual that C-24 dating cannot provide anything even remotely close to what you're suggesting was reported.

Like I said, it's like saying that the newspaper described a basketball player shooting a ball across a football field. The idea of people using c-14 dating and concluding ages of 200+ millions of years old simply doesn't make sense. And you can look up any source on carbon dating, no source gives a half life that would allow for such conclusions.

Content - Radioactive decay and half-life.

You should just abandon your claim because it's factually incorrect and is quite simply misinformation.
As I said it was 20 or so years ago, Im pretty sure they reported it as carbon dating (no mention of C14). It may have been another type of dating though such as someone mentioned above about other types. Other than that I stand by my comment that it is what they reported. The only other thing Im not 100% sure on is the 250 years could have been 200. Im as sure as I can be that the others are what was reported, it was definitely at least 1,000,000 times out.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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For the record, the people of the earth lived in one place after the flood. A lot of people on here are saying the flood caused the earth to split into the continents as we know them today. I always considered it was after the Tower of Babel when God scattered the people all over the earth.
 
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coffee4u

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Locust covered the face of the earth. I have never seen locust in England.

That's different.
The flood occurred before the nation of Israel came to be.
It occurred when there was one giant landmass, no separate continents. The flood caused the continents and islands- IE England.
the vapour canopy covered the entire globe
God specifically said about the flood that it was everything with breath in its nostrils across the entire world. Again one landmass.
 
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coffee4u

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you are the one pushing the what ever you want thing.

No, I push for scripture.

Does or does not God say the rainbow is a sign to never flood the world like that again?
Do we not have local floods all the time?
This flood was not local.
 
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coffee4u

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unless it never existed in the first place.

Genesis 1
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.

Genesis 7:11

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

"It would have let light through"
Again you seem to assume things about the canopy such as how thick it was. I am not giving the canopy any numerical value. I am not talking about Isaac Vail's canopy theory which had it 40 feet thick. The Bible doesn't say how much water was above, just that there was water above.

Water did not fall as rain until the flood.
Before the flood, the ground was watered from beneath.
Genesis 2:6
but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.


"while blanketing the earth in warm temperatures from pole to pole."
temperatures of thousands of degrees is warm i will grant you that.
God knew how thick or not it needed to be the same way he knew how much gravity to give the earth. You don't have an issue with gravity, yet just a bit too much or a bit less and it would end life.

and that explains why cave dwelling animals live for thousands of years and grow to gigantic proportions....oh wait....they don't do that.

No one mentioned caves...
There were many giant animals, some dinosaurs being one but other giant megafauna like wolves, horses, bears etc.

most megafauna mammals grew that large in response to the ice age.... so what happened to the oh so nice greenhouse?

The flood caused the ice age.

perfect except for light, and pressure and temperature....but who cares about those things

It would have been the exact thickness to allow for that.


you do know that your "vapour" canopy is itself water....right?

Well, it sure wasn't Fanta. Water vapour is the most likely.
 
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ZNP

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species evolved to for life in tundra like conditions of extreme cold and dryness dying off when those conditions go away? Yeah that is a mystery

you mean the evidence that when human being came to settle an area the rate of extinction for big mammals rose?


Felisa A. Smith Rosemary E. Elliott Smith S. Kathleen Lyons, J. L. Payne Body size downgrading of mammals over the late Quaternary Science 20 Apr 2018:

M. Cardillo, G. M. Mace, K. E. Jones, J. Bielby, O. R. Bininda-Emonds, W. Sechrest, C. D. Orme, A. Purvis, Multiple causes of high extinction risk in large mammal species. Science 309, 1239–1241 (2005).

G. Ceballos, P. R. Ehrlich, A. D. Barnosky, A. García, R. M. Pringle, T. M. Palmer, Accelerated modern human-induced species losses. Sci. Adv. (2015).

R. Dirzo, H. S. Young, M. Galetti, G. Ceballos, N. J. B. Isaac, B. Collen, Defaunation in the Anthropocene. Science 345, 401–406 (2014)

S. K. Lyons et al., Of mice, mastodons and men: Human-mediated extinctions on four continents. Evol. Ecol. Res. 6, 339–358 (2004).

T. Surovell, N. M. Waguespack, “Human prey choice in the Late Pleistocene and its relation to megafaunal extinctions” in American Megafaunal Extinctions at the End of the Pleistocene, G. Hayes, Ed. (Springer, 2009)

R. E. Plotnick F. A. Smith, S. K. Lyons
The fossil record of the sixth extinction. Ecol. Lett. 19, (2016).


11,000 years ago, when human's first came to the America's the average mass of a non-human mammal in North America was about 200 pounds. Now it's about 15 pounds.

see above
Wow, I knew there were some theories about humans hunting them to extinction and disease killing them off, which is why I referred to them in my post. But since I don't have these particular references available to read I am assuming these answer the key questions that had been left unanswered, so that is great.

1. Mesopotamia is the cradle of civilization. One would think that if human populations were going to hunt the creatures to extinction or if disease from humans would kill them off then surely Mesopotamia would be the hardest hit. Particularly domesticated animals. Since they are in close contact with human civilization unlike the giant sloth or saber tooth tiger, or Mastodon, one would think they would be killed by the diseases first. So how did they answer this question? Why is it that virtually every domesticated animal is from Mesopotamia whereas all the other large ungulates from around the world went extinct?

2. Did they discover the treasure trove of hides and bones that must have been piled up in some human villages?

3. How do they explain approximately 200 flood myths in civilizations all over the world with similar components (a family survives by building a boat that rests on the top of a mountain, from them the world is repopulated). For example, the oldest word for boat in the chinese language is composed of two words "eight" and "souls". Why would eight people mean boat unless you are referring to Noah, his three sons and their wives?

No doubt the scientists have answered these questions, but since you are a Christian I expect you can answer this question as well. Jesus said that the end of this age would be as the days of Noah. Now if Noah's flood never happened in the first place it would be impossible for it to "happen again". Yet in 1988 Time magazine made the Earth Time's person of the year because of the extinctions going on. To preserve the species from being wiped out in the latest extinction event they talked of an "ark" that had been built to house the genetic material from hundreds of thousands of species. It is very rare that you find someone who knows more than the Lord Jesus, so since you are a know it all Christian surely you can answer this question as well.
 
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coffee4u

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Coffee is sweet but she really don’t understand even elementary school science.

<_< I am only here to defend scripture as I have said before.

No light would have gotten through your vapor canopy. All you’d have to do to see that is to watch how a cloud blocks the sun . If you picture this much thicker and blanketing the earth ....

The Bible doesn't say how thick it was or how it was made up.
2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

Your thick vapor canopy is also made up of a greenhouse gas - water. The heat from the sun comes in and cannot escape easily . Raising the temperature high enough to make the surface molten .

Too much water vapour can be deadly, no one is saying that it can't be. Too much or too little gravity would also be deadly. Obviously, if God can balance gravity on the earth so that we don't get crushed or float away, he can also balance how much vapour there was.

Air actually has weight and that presses on you . Adding enough water to cover Mt Everest to the atmosphere adds that weight to the air already there . You’d be crushed by the pressure .

You say I don't know science, yet you don't have a good handle on the Biblical model.
Mt Everest didn't exist as Mt Everest before the flood, the volcanic action during the flood created it.
Psalm 104:8
The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them.
It was a much flatter world before the flood and I don't mean 'flat earth' flat either. Before the flood the earth was a whole lot more even, no deep valleys and no extremely tall mountains.
 
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coffee4u

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Dude your getting it, were not talking about that along ago, if you go by they bible the flood happened 4300 years ago. The Pyramids were built 5k years ago...the flood would have destroyed them. There are there are man made structures over 10k years old..the flood would have destroyed them as well.

I do not assign years and don't believe the Bible to be some kind of calculator. I believe the creation to be anywhere from 6 to 15 thousand years old and that we can't know exactly. I disagree with James Ussher. He had faulty doctrine in general so I certainly don't listen to his numerical calculations for the age of the earth and I think creationists who follow him are making a mistake.
So no I am not saying the flood happened 4,300 years ago or that creation happend on 23 October 4004 BC. (Ussher actually claimed that as the date of creation) To me that smacks of someone who is preaching like he were God himself, I think its offensive. so no, I have no time for Ussher.
 
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