The New Perspective on Paul

Hmm · Sep 13, 2020

Michael Bird, who I quoted in the OP, says this about about faith and works that I thought was interesting:

“I think the solution is to note the prepositions that Paul uses. Paul consistently employs dia (“through”) and ek (“by/from”) to indicate that faith is the instrument by which believers are justified (Rom 3:22, 25; 5:1; Gal 2:16). But Paul uses kata (“according to”) when it comes to the role of works at the final judgment (Rom 2:6; 2 Cor. 11:5). The works, faithfulness, obedience, and life of the believer must accord with God’s verdict at the final judgment. Thus, justification is on the basis of Christ’s work, it is appropriated through the instrument of faith, while the verdict of the final judgment is congruent with the life of Christian works”

So, according to this view, our salvation/justification is on the basis of our faith in Christ and in accordance with our good works.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Why do you have sin when it has been Destroyed by Jesus on the cross?

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes, true sinlessness will be realized in us to the extent that we walk after the Spirit-and continue to.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
That is a total misunderstanding of what Scripture says and teaches.

Thank you for your honest opinion.

JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

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Hmm · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
The extent to which a Believer walks in the Spirit is 100% all the time.

The Believer cannot NOT Walk in the Spirit,

Can you quote any Biblical verse to support this?

JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

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JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

Hmmm! said:
Can you quote any Biblical verse to support this?

If I can will you believe it?

JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

Hmmm! said:
Can you quote any Biblical verse to support this?

Do you understand HOW a Believer becomes to be in the Spirit

Do you understand a New Believer needs to be told to Walk in the Spirit because, he does not know instinctively what it means to Walk in the Spirit?

Is it your belief, a Believer is in the Spirit only some of the time?

Hmm · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
If I can will you believe it?

If they support your assertion, yes. But I'll make my own mind up on that.

JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

Hmmm! said:
If they support your assertion, yes. But I'll make my own mind up on that.

I'm sure you will.

Hmm · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
I'm sure you will.

This is getting very silly (again)

Tigger45 · Sep 13, 2020

Hmmm! said:
<snip>So, according to this view, our salvation/justification is on the basis of our faith in Christ and in accordance with our good works.

How about inserting manifesting as our good works instead because it is God working through us? This wording accounts for Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

Hmm · Sep 13, 2020

Tigger45 said:
How about inserting manifesting as our good works instead because it is God working through us? This wording accounts for Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

I used the word accordance because this is the word used in the verses Bird quotes, e.g.

Romans 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works (Rom 2:6)

being derived from the Greek word kata (“according to”). I think you make an interesting point but I don't know enough to be able comment on whether this is consistent with the idea of manifesting God's work through us.

hedrick · Sep 13, 2020

Hmmm! said:
I used the word accordance because this is the word used in the verses Bird quotes, e.g.

Romans 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works (Rom 2:6)

being derived from the Greek word kata (“according to”). I think you make an interesting point but I don't know enough to be able comment on whether this is consistent with the idea of manifesting God's work through us.

It's also worth reading the passage. Paul talks about patiently doing good vs self-seeking. This isn't quite the rule-defined sin counting that people often think of when talking about works. It's also possible that this is describing judgement for non-Christians.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
When a person becomes a Believer and is Baptized in accordance with Jesus' instruction, the new Believer becomes Born Again unto NEWNESS of life.

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This newness of life spoken of, is a life in the Spirit, where before we walked in the Flesh, but through Baptism we die to the Flesh and become alive unto the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit isn't something the Believer does sporadically, it is what the new Believer does from the moment of his Baptism, just as if he were Born Again unto Newness of Life in the Spirit. (Being filled with the Holy Spirit).

Walking in the Spirit isn't something the Believer in Christ chooses to do, any more than he chose to walk in the Flesh.

A person is born of the Flesh, merely by his being born in the Natural.
A person is Born Again of the Spirit, by his by his being Baptized into Christ and his receiving the Holy Spirit unto Newness of Life in the Spirit.

The extent to which a Believer walks in the Spirit is 100% all the time.

The Believer cannot NOT Walk in the Spirit,

The New Believer does not know how to walk in the Spirit, he does not know nor understand what has actually happened to him any more than a new born child does in the natural, it takes time for him to crawl then stand and finally walk, but this process should not take the Believer long, it should be commensurate to the Natural.

Right, thanks again for your opinion- forgive me if I assume it's based more on theory than actual experience but hopefully it works out for you either way.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Don't mention it, I'm glad to oblige but I asked you a question you haven't answered.

"Can you back that up with any verses which say that?"

“Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Matt 24:12-13

“To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him.” James 1:12

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.” Rom 11:19-21

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.” Heb 11:4-6

“I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.” Rev 3:11

“Blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Rev 22:14-15

There are many more.

JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

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JIMINZ · Sep 13, 2020

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fhansen · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Keep on quoting, with every quote you show your Catholic Ignorance of Scripture.

Hmm, ok-I'll wait for your best-guess interpretation of each then, unsullied and unburdened by historical understandings.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Yeah I know, it's easy to discount what Scripture actually does say, when it contradicts what the Catholic Church teaches as truth.

No, its just easy to discount the private and personal opinions of one more reader picking up the bible two millennia after the fact and just knowing what all it means to say. In spite of what the ancient churches in both the east and west have taught. And despite oft-times plausible disagreement with fellow Sola Scriptura adherents as well.

The New Perspective on Paul

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