Covenant and New Covenant theology

keras · Sep 13, 2020

HARK! said:
No matter how we look at it; it's still a, huge, huge, number of possibilities. Is there anyone on earth who can be sure that they are not descendants of the 10 lost tribes?

No. The only way we can know is if they are Christians, but many aliens will join too, as we see today; people from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10.

Amos 3:1-8 Listen you Israelites to these words that the Lord addresses to you, all of the twelve tribes that He brought up from Egypt; You alone I have cared for among all the nations of the world, that is why I must punish you for your sins. Do two travel together without agreeing? Or if disaster comes, is it not the work of the Lord? Indeed the Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants, the prophets. Israelites; now the Christian peoples, Galatians 3:26-29

Amos 3:9-11 Make this proclamation: Assemble on the hills of Samaria, look at the tumult seething amongst the people! Those who don’t know how to do right and who live by oppressing others. Therefore the Lord says: The destroyer will surround your land, your strength will fail and your towns will be despoiled.

Listen to this testimony against the descendants of Jacob. As a shepherd may rescue fragments of a sheep from a lion, so will only a remnant of Israel be rescued. On the Day that I deal with Israel, for their sins, I will also destroy their pagan shrines and their ostentatious buildings.

Amos 4:12 Israel, this is what I shall do to you, so Israel: Prepare to meet your God.

Amos 5:4-9 These are the Words of the Lord to the people of Israel: Seek the Lord, if you want to live, or He will sweep through Joseph’s descendants like a fire with no one to quench it. He who made the stars, has power over all things, He will make a destruction flash forth against the mighty that wipes out their military power.
An explosion on the suns surface. Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1

Amos 5:10-15 You that despise the truth, you that extort tribute, though you have fine buildings and beautiful farms, you will not enjoy them. For I know of your crimes and monstrous sins – but at this time, keep silent, because now are evil times. You must hate evil and love good and it may be that the Lord will show favor to the survivors of Joseph.
Joseph- the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, now scattered among the Western nations.

Amos 5:16-17 Therefore the Lord says: In the towns and in all the world, there will be mourning and sorrow, for I will pass through your midst.
This refers to the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied, worldwide event; the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord’s wrath.

Amos 5:20 – The Day of the Lord is indeed a Day of deep darkness and terror.

Amos 9:8b-15 Yet, I shall not totally destroy Israel’s posterity. I shall shake Israel among the nations, none will be lost, but the ungodly among My people will die. Those who say disaster cannot come to us, we are strong and safe. The fallen House of David will be restored as it was long ago.

The time is coming when the Land will be prosperous, My people will live in their own Land, eating and drinking the abundant produce. They will never again leave the Land that I, the Lord, have given to them. Amos 9:13-15

Look forward to the great promises of redemption and going to live in all of the holy Land, for My people, now every faithful Christian believer: the true Israelites of God. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

Guojing · Sep 13, 2020

jgr said:
Where do you see the word "replace" or "replacement", other than in your imagination?

Whenever someone say "The Church is a nation".

Guojing · Sep 13, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Okay....good....we agree.

But look at what's written about that specific group called "Israel":

1 Peter 1:1-2 ~
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the elect who are exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen(a) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance

V. 10-12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

So wouldn't you also call this group the Body of Christ....the Church?

Then you have to address the points I made to your first post, which is

Only Israelites can be scattered people of God, not Gentiles. Israel was a nation born of God (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9).

Gentile believers do not belong to any nation that is born of God, so it makes no sense to described them as scattered.

Furthermore, Peter himself agreed in Galatians 2:9 to restrict his ministry only to the circumcision, so he won't be writing a letter to gentile believers after that.

jgr · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Whenever someone say "The Church is a nation".

That someone is Jesus (Matthew 21:43) and Peter (1 Peter 2:9).

jgr · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
ephesians 2:11-12 made that clear to me

What does Jonah 3:10 say?

Did Paul know Jonah 3:10?

Would Paul contradict Jonah 3:10?

So between Jonah, Paul, and yourself, who do you think is in error?

Guojing · Sep 13, 2020

jgr said:
That someone is Jesus (Matthew 21:43) and Peter (1 Peter 2:9).

Can you explain Matthew 21:43?

Okay, you interpret scripture differently from others.

That is fine, agree to disagree and move on.

jgr · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Can you explain Matthew 21:43?

Okay, you interpret scripture differently from others.

That is fine, agree to disagree and move on.

The kingdom of God would be taken from those who rejected Christ, and given to the Church.

Guojing · Sep 13, 2020

jgr said:
The kingdom of God would be taken from those who rejected Christ, and given to the Church.

If you want to interpret like that, no one can stop you, feel free to adopt that for your own.

Another possible interpretation is

It is important to note that the Lord Jesus did not say, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to nations bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43). “Nation” is singular, not plural. “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

God did not give Israel’s kingdom over to nations (plural, as in Gentiles in the Body of Christ) but rather one nation (singular)—redeemed Israel.

jgr · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
If you want to interpret like that, no one can stop you, feel free to adopt that for your own.

Another possible interpretation is

It is important to note that the Lord Jesus did not say, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to nations bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43). “Nation” is singular, not plural. “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

God did not give Israel’s kingdom over to nations (plural, as in Gentiles in the Body of Christ) but rather one nation (singular)—redeemed Israel.

Where does Scripture restrict the Kingdom of God to only redeemed Israel, and exclude redeemed Gentiles?

Guojing · Sep 13, 2020

jgr said:
Where does Scripture restrict the Kingdom of God to only redeemed Israel, and exclude redeemed Gentiles?

Scripture did not do that, but you have to understand the meaning of the term of "Kingdom of God" properly first.

It is understood differently, depending on context.

What is the difference between “the Kingdom of God” and “the Kingdom of Heaven?”

jgr · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Scripture did not do that, but you have to understand the meaning of the term of "Kingdom of God" properly first.

It is understood differently, depending on context.

What is the difference between “the Kingdom of God” and “the Kingdom of Heaven?”

Scripture does not exclude redeemed Gentiles from either the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven.

Guojing · Sep 13, 2020

jgr said:
Scripture does not exclude redeemed Gentiles from either the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven.

You don't have to agree.

Since you are a covenant Theologian, it is understandable why you will have that view.

jgr · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
You don't have to agree.

Since you are a covenant Theologian, it is understandable why you will have that view.

Any Scriptural theologian will have that view.

BABerean2 · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
And you guys can still deny that this is replacement theology

Who is replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16?

Who is replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8?

Who is replacing the one people of God, with two peoples of God in John 10:16?

Who is replacing the one Gospel, with two Gospels?

The Dispensationalists who shout "Replacement Theology" have three fingers pointing back in their direction, when they point a finger at others.

The origin of modern Dispensational Theology is found in the link below written by a Brethren historian.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.

mkgal1 · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Whenever someone say "The Church is a nation".

Do you not consider Christ as your king? Doesn't a king need a kingdom? Isn't a kingdom a "nation"?

mkgal1 · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Then you have to address the points I made to your first post, which is

Only Israelites can be scattered people of God, not Gentiles. Israel was a nation born of God (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9).

Gentile believers do not belong to any nation that is born of God, so it makes no sense to described them as scattered.

Furthermore, Peter himself agreed in Galatians 2:9 to restrict his ministry only to the circumcision, so he won't be writing a letter to gentile believers after that.

I have no problem with this part of Peter’s letter being addressed to scattered Israelites (the lost sheep) but please take notice that, based on what Peter (also from the 12 tribes, himself) wrote....that the words of the prophets and the promises in Jeremiah 31 apply to this group he's writing to.......not a *future* Israel.

I'd also asked you if you consider this group included in the Body of Christ.

mkgal1 · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Israel was a nation born of God (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9).

Israel in the Old Testament was a type of kingdom (or nation, if you prefer) that God had planned - and fulfilled - in the New Covenant (the anti-type). If you've not read about types/antitypes....I'd encourage reading about that. We can't really understand the Old Testament without the revelation of the New Testament.

The purpose of the judges and prophets were to turn the Israelites back to the One True God (they fell into idolatry often). God was merciful with them. His plan was unfolding (despite their rebellion and disloyalty). He'd promised that David's descendant would be seated on David's throne.....and Christ Jesus fulfilled that long-anticipated promise. The promise to Abraham was also fulfilled in the New Covenant.....that Abraham would be the Father of a great nation in which all the families of the earth would be blessed. I appreciate how John Piper describes the origin of the Israelites:

Quoting John Piper:

One Man Through Whom to Bless the World
...like many of God's mustard-seed size actions, it is obscure and seemingly insignificant. It is the kind of action scarcely anyone would have thought of who wanted to redeem the world, reclaim creation from the curse of sin, and fill the earth with God's glory. God zeroes in on one man, Abram, a worshipper of false gods (Joshua 24:2, 3) in the land of Ur, and says, with unbelievably far-reaching implications, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse, and in you shall all the families of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 12:1–3). In completely sovereign grace God comes to this undeserving idolater and says, with life-creating authority, "I am going to bless you, and through you bring blessing to the whole world." And with that begins the history of the people of Israel. - "The Covenant of Abraham | Desiring God" The Covenant of Abraham

But look at what God had shown Abraham:

Hebrews 11:10 ~ For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

V. 16 ~ Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22 ~ Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels

**Sorry this got so long. It's difficult to basically sum up the Bible in one post.

mkgal1 · Sep 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Again my question is, "When did Paul ever called the Body of Christ, the 12 tribes?"

mkgal1 said:
Look carefully at who Paul is addressing here. Also notice what Paul says about who Jesus is. If Israel and the Church are separate.....then who is the Messiah for the Church? Paul says in Acts 13 (v. 23) that Jesus was Israel's promised Savior/Messiah. If the Church and Israel are separate (as is your argument).....then the Church must not be able to claim that promise as fulfilled for them (us).....right? The Church would need their own Savior (going with that argument). Paul is summarizing the Israelite history here. Do you believe there's a separate Church history?

Acts 13

15After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue leaders sent word to them: “Brothers, if you have a word of encouragement for the people, please speak.”16Paul stood up, motioned with his hand, and began to speak: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who fear God, listen to me! 17The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers. He made them into a great people during their stay in Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out of that land. 18He endured their conduct for about forty years in the wilderness. 19And having vanquished seven nations in Canaan, He gave their land to His people as an inheritance. 20All this took about 450 years.

After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. 21Then the people asked for a king, and God gave them forty years under Saul son of Kish, from the tribe of Benjamin. 22After removing Saul, He raised up David as their king and testified about him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after My own heart; he will carry out My will in its entirety.’a 23From the descendants of this man, God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as He promised.

Reposting just in case it was missed the first time.

keras · Sep 13, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Abraham would be the Father of a great nation in which all the families of the earth would be blessed.

Good post, mkgal.
Paul makes it quite clear who that great nation is:
Galatians 3:26-29 It is thru faith that you {Christians] are the children of God in Jesus. ....there is no such thing as Jew and Greek....you are all one in Jesus. So, by belonging to Christ, you are a child of Abraham and an heir to the Promises given to him.

Let us hear no more nonsense that a group of atheistic and apostate LGBT lovers, who happen to control a small part of the holy Land, have any special place in the soon to come Kingdom of Jesus.

mkgal1 · Sep 13, 2020

keras said:
Good post, mkgal.
Paul makes it quite clear who that great nation is:
Galatians 3:26-29 It is thru faith that you {Christians] are the children of God in Jesus. ....there is no such thing as Jew and Greek....you are all one in Jesus. So, by belonging to Christ, you are a child of Abraham and an heir to the Promises given to him.

Thank you.

I agree that's the nation that was foretold and then fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Covenant and New Covenant theology

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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