Finally, after all these months of avoidance, you have come up with something!!! I think you eventually run out of excuses for dodging the obvious. You were forced to present something. So now you have finally fell back on the classic faulty Revelation 4:1 default theory that has been long-refuted. This is now your supposed rapture. Wow! Well, i hate to burst your bubble, but this has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future rapture 7 years before the 3rd coming. But because you are devoid of anything in the rest of Scripture, and anything in the rest of Revelation, you have finally had to default back to what you have been taught.
Revelation 4:1-2
Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely
nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Revelation 4:1-2 commences,
“After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos)
I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.
(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?
(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”
In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up:
Revelation 17:1-3 in the same way says,
“And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”
Revelation 21:9-10 in the same way says,
“And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”
Three times John is commanded “come hither” and all three times he is expressly “in the spirit.” All three passages closely mirror each other, in the sense that they describe the same supernatural manner in which John received the visions. Notwithstanding, none of them make the slightest allusion to the catching away of the saints.
Revelation 4:1-2 “come up hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 17:1-3 “come hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 21:9-10 “come hither” “in the spirit”
If the Pretribbers insist on Revelation 4:1-2 being a definite record of the rapture then they must also accept Revelation 17:1-3 and Revelation 21:9-10 as recording two similar secret raptures. That is if they are going to be consistent.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 supports Amil, and exposes Premil, saying:
“we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
Where is your 7 year-trib here? Nowhere! It does not exist here or anywhere else in the sacred text. How can any survive? There is nothing secret about this appearing despite what your teachers have told you.
This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The
“sudden destruction” is so impactful that
none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
Jacob's troubles
I have repeatedly rebutted your Jacob's troubles theory. I have shown you it relates to Babylon at the exile. It is long fulfilled. There is no mention of your imaginary Pretrib rapture, 7-year trib and 3rd coming, in Jeremiah or anywhere else in the sacred text.
Pretribbers repeat this falsehood without the slightest of evidence. They notably never furnish us with hard quotes, just misleading fly-bite theological sound-bites that have been long exposed as error.
Where is
a rapture of the Church mentioned in Jeremiah? Where is it linked to Jacob's Trouble?
Where is
a literal seven-year tribulation mentioned in Jeremiah? Where is it linked to Jacob's Trouble?
Where is
a 3rd coming of Christ mentioned in Jeremiah? Where is it linked to Jacob's Trouble?
7 years between Rev 4:1 and Rev 19???
· You have zero proof for a 7 years trib between
Revelation 4-19. It actually adds up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.
· You claim the Church is in heaven between
Revelation 4-19 yet you admit there is no mention of the Church in any of those chapters.
· You claim the Church returns from heaven in
Revelation 19 at your 3rd coming yet there is no mention of the Church by name in that chapters.
Daniel 9:24
Where is "Jacob's trouble" mentioned in Daniel 9?
Can you show me anywhere in Scripture (including Daniel 9, Romans 11 and Revelation 3 & 4) that you consider indicates (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?
Can you show me one passage referring to the catching away of the saints that contains any mention of a 7yr trib following it?
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares,
“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (
phthora or decay)
inherit incorruption (
aphthrsia or unending existence).
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”
This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states:
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
Once again “
the coming of our Lord” and
“the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or
enistemi meaning impending).”
We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (
parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word
episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.
This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.
