Witchcraft 101

Hidden In Him said:

I find the general lack of belief in the supernatural around here to be a little startling, coming from believers in the resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You at least have an excuse.

But you are correct. Physical substances used in magick spells do not effect the curse. It is demonic spirits, if called upon earnestly and consistently, who will however. You don't believe in evil spirits, I take it?

Click to expand...

You would be correct.

The IbanezerScrooge said:

You would be correct.

Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks for the response. How do you account for extremely evil behavior in men?

Hidden In Him said:

Ok. Thanks for the response. How do you account for extremely evil behavior in men?

Click to expand...

Men behaving evily. People are pretty selfish just on average. If you have someone who is more selfish than average, add in some sociopathy, psychopathy, childhood trauma, metal illness, etc. you can get some people who have a really hard time adjusting to societal norms and possibly even reality that can lead to some very evil behavior. It doesn't take demons or supernatural spirits to explain that.

Hidden In Him said:

No offense, but under the present circumstances I rather pick your brain. You don't have to respond, but I will get around to quoting some scriptures for you if you give me the impression you'll be listening. But in all honesty, your lack of faith in such things (along with others) strikes me as astounding, and it tells me I may be fighting a losing battle here before it even starts.

Click to expand...

I was hoping you'd provide Scripture, because my suspicion is that you will focus on where Scripture condemns pharmakeia, which is one of the pagan practices Paul condemns in Galatians 5:20. The word is often translated as "witchcraft" or "sorcery", which is sadly very misleading. Pharmakeia is not abra kadabra bippity boppity boo stuff. Pharmakeia is where we also get modern English words like "pharmacy" and "pharmaceutical". Pharmakeia was herbalism, or poison-making. And in the context of ancient pagan practice would have involved various herbal concoctions, potions, and poisons to be used in pagan rites and practice.

It and related words are not always used in a strictly pagan context in regard to the making of poisons and mind-altering drugs for use in pagan rites, as for example St. Ignatius of Antioch refers to the Lord's Supper as φαρμακον αθανασιας (pharmakon athanasias), "medicine of immortality".

"Especially [will I do this ] if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David according to the flesh, being both the Son of man and the Son of God, so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." - St. Ignatius to the Ephesians, 20:2

So the relevant context is the pagan superstitious practices and pagan magical rites, which the Apostles rightly reject as Christians have no business participating in such rites. Christians should not be engaging in practices or doing things to worship false gods and idols, or participating in religious practices foreign to our Christian faith. Which is why the Apostle condemns the practice of herbalism for this purpose.

If demons exist, then what power do they have over men? Any?

Click to expand...

They lie.

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness, whose end will correspond to their actions." - 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

-CryptoLutheran

The IbanezerScrooge said:

Men behaving evily. People are pretty selfish just on average. If you have someone who is more selfish than average, add in some sociopathy, psychopathy, childhood trauma, metal illness, etc. you can get some people who have a really hard time adjusting to societal norms and possibly even reality that can lead to some very evil behavior. It doesn't take demons or supernatural spirits to explain that.

Click to expand...

How about the ritual Satanic abuse of children, and then their murder?

Hidden In Him said:

How about the ritual Satanic abuse of children, and then their murder?

Click to expand...

You would benefit greatly by reading about the history of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's and how, as a moral panic, it was based on nothing more than rumor and gossip--and these claims were never substantiated by actual evidence. It did, however, result in many innocent people being demonized and hurt. This panic was in large part influenced by known con artists such as Mike Warnke and John Todd. Not to mention crackpots such as Texe Mars who profiteered and also helped perpetuate lies and nonsense.

Appeal to urban legends is not going to help whatever point you want to make here.

And I truly pray and hope that when you bring this up, you are not talking about any of that Qanon nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

It and related words are not always used in a strictly pagan context in regard to the making of poisons and mind-altering drugs for use in pagan rites, as for example St. Ignatius of Antioch refers to the Lord's Supper as φαρμακον αθανασιας (pharmakon athanasias), "medicine of immortality".

"Especially [will I do this ] if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David according to the flesh, being both the Son of man and the Son of God, so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." - St. Ignatius to the Ephesians, 20:2

Click to expand...

Ah! The fathers. I'm glad you brought this up.

Let me ask you then what you think of Ireneaus' quotes regarding Simon Magus and his successors. I will highlight for you the words that seem to contradict that mere herbalism was in play:

Doctrines and practices of Simon Magus and Menander.
1. Simon the Samaritan was that magician of whom Luke, the disciple and follower of the apostles, says, But there was a certain man, Simon by name, who beforetime used magical arts in that city, and led astray the people of Samaria, declaring that he himself was some great one, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This is the power of God, which is called great. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had driven them mad by his sorceries. Acts 8:9-11 This Simon, then — who feigned faith, supposing that the apostles themselves performed their cures by the art of magic, and not by the power of God; and with respect to their filling with the Holy Ghost, through the imposition of hands, those that believed in God through Him who was preached by them, namely, Christ Jesus — suspecting that even this was done through a kind of greater knowledge of magic, and offering money to the apostles, thought he, too, might receive this power of bestowing the Holy Spirit on whomsoever he would — was addressed in these words by Peter: Your money perish with you, because you have thought that the gift of God can be purchased with money: you have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God; for I perceive that you are in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. He, then, not putting faith in God a whit the more, set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to be a wonderful being, and applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the whole magic art, that he might the better bewilder and overpower multitudes of men. Such was his procedure in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, by whom also he is said to have been honoured with a statue, on account of his magical power. This man, then, was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him.

2. Now this Simon of Samaria, from whom all sorts of heresies derive their origin, formed his sect out of the following materials: Having redeemed from slavery at Tyre, a city of Phœnicia, a certain woman named Helena, he was in the habit of carrying her about with him, declaring that this woman was the first conception of his mind, the mother of all, by whom, in the beginning, he conceived in his mind [the thought] of forming angels and archangels. For this Ennœa leaping forth from him, and comprehending the will of her father, descended to the lower regions [of space], and generated angels and powers, by whom also he declared this world was formed. But after she had produced them, she was detained by them through motives of jealousy, because they were unwilling to be looked upon as the progeny of any other being. As to himself, they had no knowledge of him whatever; but his Ennœa was detained by those powers and angels who had been produced by her. She suffered all kinds of contumely from them, so that she could not return upwards to her father, but was even shut up in a human body, and for ages passed in succession from one female body to another, as from vessel to vessel. She was, for example, in that Helen on whose account the Trojan War was undertaken; for whose sake also Stesichorus was struck blind, because he had cursed her in his verses, but afterwards, repenting and writing what are called palinodes, in which he sang her praise, he was restored to sight. Thus she, passing from body to body, and suffering insults in every one of them, at last became a common prostitute; and she it was that was meant by the lost sheep. Matthew 18:12

3. For this purpose, then, he had come that he might win her first, and free her from slavery, while he conferred salvation upon men, by making himself known to them. For since the angels ruled the world ill because each one of them coveted the principal power for himself, he had come to amend matters, and had descended, transfigured and assimilated to powers and principalities and angels, so that he might appear among men to be a man, while yet he was not a man; and that thus he was thought to have suffered in Judæa, when he had not suffered. Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous actions. For such deeds are not righteous in the nature of things, but by mere accident, just as those angels who made the world, have thought fit to constitute them, seeking, by means of such precepts, to bring men into bondage. On this account, he pledged himself that the world should be dissolved, and that those who are his should be freed from the rule of them who made the world.

4. Thus, then, the mystic priests belonging to this sect both lead profligate lives and practise magical arts, each one to the extent of his ability. They use exorcisms and incantations. Love-potions, too, and charms, as well as those beings who are called Paredri (familiars) and Oniropompi (dream-senders), and whatever other curious arts can be had recourse to, are eagerly pressed into their service. They also have an image of Simon fashioned after the likeness of Jupiter, and another of Helena in the shape of Minerva; and these they worship. In fine, they have a name derived from Simon, the author of these most impious doctrines, being called Simonians; and from them knowledge, falsely so called, 1 Timothy 6:20 received its beginning, as one may learn even from their own assertions.

5. The successor of this man was Menander, also a Samaritan by birth, and he, too, was a perfect adept in the practice of magic. He affirms that the primary Power continues unknown to all, but that he himself is the person who has been sent forth from the presence of the invisible beings as a saviour, for the deliverance of men. The world was made by angels, whom, like Simon, he maintains to have been produced by Ennœa. He gives, too, as he affirms, by means of that magic which he teaches, knowledge to this effect, that one may overcome those very angels that made the world; for his disciples obtain the resurrection by being baptized into him, and can die no more, but remain in the possession of immortal youth. Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 23)

ViaCrucis said:

You would benefit greatly by reading about the history of the Satanic Panic of the 1980's and how, as a moral panic, it was based on nothing more than rumor and gossip--and these claims were never substantiated by actual evidence. It did, however, result in many innocent people being demonized and hurt. This panic was in large part influenced by known con artists such as Mike Warnke and John Todd.

Click to expand...

Ok, LoL. But I think you have succumbed to just the deception that Satanists want you to; that they don't exist. I could post for you images from now until next week of practicing Satanists, though the forum would likely not allow more graphic images. But you see, this is the effect of your unbelief. Without meaning to offend, the enemy can pull the wool over your eyes and you will walk about not knowing he is in your midst every day you walk this earth.

ViaCrucis said:

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

I need to log off, but I'll check back later.

God bless, and thanks for the discussion.

Hidden In Him said:

Ah! The fathers. I'm glad you brought this up.

Let me ask you then what you think of Ireneaus' quotes regarding Simon Magus and his successors. I will highlight for you the words that seem to contradict that mere herbalism was in play:

Doctrines and practices of Simon Magus and Menander.
1. Simon the Samaritan was that magician of whom Luke, the disciple and follower of the apostles, says, But there was a certain man, Simon by name, who beforetime used magical arts in that city, and led astray the people of Samaria, declaring that he himself was some great one, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This is the power of God, which is called great. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had driven them mad by his sorceries. Acts 8:9-11 This Simon, then — who feigned faith, supposing that the apostles themselves performed their cures by the art of magic, and not by the power of God; and with respect to their filling with the Holy Ghost, through the imposition of hands, those that believed in God through Him who was preached by them, namely, Christ Jesus — suspecting that even this was done through a kind of greater knowledge of magic, and offering money to the apostles, thought he, too, might receive this power of bestowing the Holy Spirit on whomsoever he would — was addressed in these words by Peter: Your money perish with you, because you have thought that the gift of God can be purchased with money: you have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God; for I perceive that you are in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. He, then, not putting faith in God a whit the more, set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to be a wonderful being, and applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the whole magic art, that he might the better bewilder and overpower multitudes of men. Such was his procedure in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, by whom also he is said to have been honoured with a statue, on account of his magical power. This man, then, was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him.

2. Now this Simon of Samaria, from whom all sorts of heresies derive their origin, formed his sect out of the following materials: Having redeemed from slavery at Tyre, a city of Phœnicia, a certain woman named Helena, he was in the habit of carrying her about with him, declaring that this woman was the first conception of his mind, the mother of all, by whom, in the beginning, he conceived in his mind [the thought] of forming angels and archangels. For this Ennœa leaping forth from him, and comprehending the will of her father, descended to the lower regions [of space], and generated angels and powers, by whom also he declared this world was formed. But after she had produced them, she was detained by them through motives of jealousy, because they were unwilling to be looked upon as the progeny of any other being. As to himself, they had no knowledge of him whatever; but his Ennœa was detained by those powers and angels who had been produced by her. She suffered all kinds of contumely from them, so that she could not return upwards to her father, but was even shut up in a human body, and for ages passed in succession from one female body to another, as from vessel to vessel. She was, for example, in that Helen on whose account the Trojan War was undertaken; for whose sake also Stesichorus was struck blind, because he had cursed her in his verses, but afterwards, repenting and writing what are called palinodes, in which he sang her praise, he was restored to sight. Thus she, passing from body to body, and suffering insults in every one of them, at last became a common prostitute; and she it was that was meant by the lost sheep. Matthew 18:12

3. For this purpose, then, he had come that he might win her first, and free her from slavery, while he conferred salvation upon men, by making himself known to them. For since the angels ruled the world ill because each one of them coveted the principal power for himself, he had come to amend matters, and had descended, transfigured and assimilated to powers and principalities and angels, so that he might appear among men to be a man, while yet he was not a man; and that thus he was thought to have suffered in Judæa, when he had not suffered. Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous actions. For such deeds are not righteous in the nature of things, but by mere accident, just as those angels who made the world, have thought fit to constitute them, seeking, by means of such precepts, to bring men into bondage. On this account, he pledged himself that the world should be dissolved, and that those who are his should be freed from the rule of them who made the world.

4. Thus, then, the mystic priests belonging to this sect both lead profligate lives and practise magical arts, each one to the extent of his ability. They use exorcisms and incantations. Love-potions, too, and charms, as well as those beings who are called Paredri (familiars) and Oniropompi (dream-senders), and whatever other curious arts can be had recourse to, are eagerly pressed into their service. They also have an image of Simon fashioned after the likeness of Jupiter, and another of Helena in the shape of Minerva; and these they worship. In fine, they have a name derived from Simon, the author of these most impious doctrines, being called Simonians; and from them knowledge, falsely so called, 1 Timothy 6:20 received its beginning, as one may learn even from their own assertions.

5. The successor of this man was Menander, also a Samaritan by birth, and he, too, was a perfect adept in the practice of magic. He affirms that the primary Power continues unknown to all, but that he himself is the person who has been sent forth from the presence of the invisible beings as a saviour, for the deliverance of men. The world was made by angels, whom, like Simon, he maintains to have been produced by Ennœa. He gives, too, as he affirms, by means of that magic which he teaches, knowledge to this effect, that one may overcome those very angels that made the world; for his disciples obtain the resurrection by being baptized into him, and can die no more, but remain in the possession of immortal youth. Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 23)

Click to expand...

Now, you'll excuse me for a moment, but I'm having a hard time finding the part that says that Simon Magus actually had super powers through the use of magic.

Instead we see Irenaeus discuss the ways in which Simon Magus, after being rebuffed by the apostles, went on to form his own private cult, and fooled a lot of people into believing he had power. Irenaeus presents here the common belief in antiquity that Simon Magus was the first heresiarch, the first founder of a heretical movement, and specifically was often seen as the "father" of ancient Gnosticism. Note the attribution of Gnostic beliefs to the Simonians such as the belief that the material world was made by angels; and the blending of pagan imagery and idolatry, and the use of pagan magical practices.

Not, as though, Simon actually had super powers, but that he and his followers practiced these things, and were able to dupe a lot of people.

We have a word for people like this, you know, we call them hucksters, con-artists, and frauds. We still have them. A lot of them, in fact, have so-called "Christian ministries" and go on television selling their snake oil products, and fleece millions of Christians of their money under the guise of "sowing a seed" and other such tripe.

Or if you want a more "secular" example of this same thing, just look at Gwyneth Paltrow's snake oil business called Goop.

Or take Mr. "Gay Frogs" himself, Alex Jones who sells his own potions, poisons, and various snake oil woo on his Infowars website--all the wile peddling his own brand of stupid conspiracy theories and lies.

Listen, Simon Magus and his ilk are still around. But they don't have super powers. They're liars. They're con-men. They're snake-oil peddlers. They are frauds, hucksters, and liars. Not magical super people fueled by demonic energies or some such.

-CryptoLutheran

Hidden In Him said:

Ok, LoL. But I think you have succumbed to just the deception that Satanists want you to; that they don't exist. I could post for you images from now until next week of practicing Satanists, though the forum would likely not allow more graphic images. But you see, this is the effect of your unbelief. Without meaning to offend, the enemy can pull the wool over your eyes and you will walk about not knowing he is in your midst every day you walk this earth.

Click to expand...

Yes, yes, I am deceived, etc etc.

-CryptoLutheran

Hidden In Him said:

Ok. Thanks for the response. How do you account for extremely evil behavior in men?

Click to expand...

As a Christian you should know the answer to this. It's called sin.

The devil isn't the reason why people act badly. People act badly because people act badly. This is one of the most basic teachings in the Christian religion.

That's why people are held morally culpable for their own thoughts, words, and actions.

"The devil made me do it" isn't an excuse that's going to fly at the Final Judgment.

-CryptoLutheran

LaBèlla said:

Many would assume its harmless.

Click to expand...

That's because, while it is powerless nonsense, it's harmless. I would encourage any young reader of Cosmo to skip that article and focus more on something useful like the sex tips.

It is very strange how we put so much work and effort into getting others to believe in demons and magic and witchcraft...just so that we can later Tell them to fear and stay away from the same, or else. "The devil wants you to believe he isnt real," some say. And the same try to convince us to believe IN him and the power he has. Which is better or worse?

Why isnt belief in God enough?

essentialsaltes said:

That's because, while it is powerless nonsense, it's harmless. I would encourage any young reader of Cosmo to skip that article and focus more on something useful like the sex tips.

Click to expand...

The impression I've gotten from magazines such as Cosmo vis-a-vis its sex and relationship advice is that it perpetuates some pretty terrible misogynistic attitudes. I've never actually read the magazine, so maybe it has some solid advice--but I've always gotten the impression that it does more harm than good in addressing sex and gender issues.

This may of course be entirely unfair on my part.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Now, you'll excuse me for a moment, but I'm having a hard time finding the part that says that Simon Magus actually had super powers through the use of magic.

Click to expand...

The quote is, "He, then, not putting faith in God a whit the more... applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the whole magic art, that he might the better bewilder and overpower multitudes of men."

Again, the quote is, "Such was his procedure in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, by whom also he is said to have been honoured with a statue, on account of his magical power. This man, then, was glorified by many as if he were a god."

How does one come to be honored as a god because he toyed with herbs?

Then the quote is, "They use exorcisms and incantations. Love-potions, too, and charms, as well as those beings who are called Paredri (familiars) and Oniropompi (dream-senders), and whatever other curious arts can be had recourse to, are eagerly pressed into their service." This is a reference to the use of demonic spirits, not herbs.

ViaCrucis said:

Yes, yes, I am deceived, etc etc.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

I think you are getting offended because your position is kinda weak.

But I didn't mean to offend, and as stated I have stuff to do anyway. God bless.

ViaCrucis said:

As a Christian you should know the answer to this. It's called sin.

The devil isn't the reason why people act badly. People act badly because people act badly. This is one of the most basic teachings in the Christian religion.

That's why people are held morally culpable for their own thoughts, words, and actions.

"The devil made me do it" isn't an excuse that's going to fly at the Final Judgment.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

It is tough being accountable for one's own choices is actions. But this we must do before we can grow.

We can either continue to let the devil make us late for church....Or decide to get a louder alarm clock...

RaymondG said:

Why isnt belief in God enough?

Click to expand...

Because if you don't believe the enemies of Christ and mankind are real, you are in spiritual terms essentially a sitting duck.

RaymondG said:

It is tough being accountable for one's own choices is actions. But this we must do before we can grow.

We can either continue to let eh devil make us late for church....Or decide to get a louder alarm clock...

Click to expand...

Good heavens, LoL. Who said anything about "the Devil made me do it" argument? You sound like you are going through standard arguments you use whenever this subject matter comes up, even if they aren't relevant to the present discussion.

ViaCrucis said:

The devil isn't the reason why people act badly. People act badly because people act badly. This is one of the most basic teachings in the Christian religion.

Click to expand...

LoL!!! You guys are incredible!! You are saying demons have no influence in the behavior of men? I can't believe you hold this position as if you are doing so with a straight face.