Veils and Long Hair

FaithT · Sep 11, 2020

I was reading First Corinthians today and came upon 1 Corinthians 11:5-16. Ok, when I was a young Catholic we didn’t have a rule about hair length but we did have to wear a head covering, often choosing to wear a veil, to church. Eventually that rule changed and now it’s rare to see a woman wear a veil to Mass. At least the Novus Ordo Mass (sp).
Now that I’m Lutheran I thought hair length and head coverings weren’t an issue like it is in some stricter denominations. Well, that was until I was reading Scripture today.

I emailed my pastor and now I’m more confused than ever. Are women going against God by having haircuts and not wearing head coverings or not? If not, then what about everything else in the Bible? The Catholic Church has a pope and Magisterium to interpret Scripture when it’s confusing but the Lutheran church doesn’t have that so how are we to follow the Bible when we seem to be allowed to pick and choose what we take literally?

FaithT · Sep 11, 2020

I’ve heard many Catholics talk about how just this above (not necessarily hair length or head coverings), but interpretation of Scripture within the Protestant churches over what Scripture means has led to some big debates and arguments. Since I’m not Catholic anymore, just how am I supposed to know which Scriptures are meant to be taken literally and which ones aren’t? Am I now supposed to wear a veil to church and grow my hair? And if the answer is no, then why not? And why do we believe The Eucharist is Jesus’ body and blood along with the bread and wine?

plain jayne · Sep 11, 2020

Paul is speaking in term of public worship. He says that women should either have long hair or a head covering if they are praying or prophesying in the worship service? Why - to show an order in God's plans. God is the head of Christ - Christ the head of the man - and the husband the head of the wife.

Interestingly, he also says this is for the sake of the angels. Angels are apparently curious about salvation and things like things of God as they aren't "saved".

Now, the question - how long is long for hair? To me, it's long enough to distinguish her from a man. Is a head covering required such as a prayer shawl? He says hair will do the trick.

I am a single woman and my hair is a few inches past my shoulders. Any longer than that and it turns to straw and I look like I have witch hair. LOL! I do not have to show I am under the authority of a man because I am not.

I do understand - even if some of the world does not - is that God is not a misogynist. I have a streak of feminism in me - not this 2nd and 3rd wave - more of the 1st wave of women who fought for what was right. So when a Christian like ME say God is not a hater of women, you can take it to the bank.

Even thought Jesus Christ IS God - he as the "son" is under the head of the "father". Even though a husband and wife are "one flesh" and equal in nature and worth and value to God - there are some differences and there is an order in the family. Unfortunately, it's many times taught incorrectly and in some cases, husbands feel the "right" to "rule over" their wives as God foretold they would in Genesis.

None of that dismisses how God wants life to be lived and with this passage explain that angels observe and learn.....I think a woman praying or prophesying in church, if she is married, should have long enough hair to distinguish her from a man OR if she has short hair, should wear and head covering during those times.

It's something that is not going to make people be lost or unsaved, and times have changed.

God's word does not change, it's for our sake, his sake, and the sake of the angels.

I won't call it a sin, but I will say the Bible should be studied more than it is.

FaithT · Sep 12, 2020

Anybody else?

FaithT · Sep 12, 2020

I thought this thread would provide much to discuss. Guess not.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 13, 2020

It was the custom when I was a child for women to cover their heads; usually with a light silk scarf, or a hat, times have changed. It was never an legalistic requirement, but was observed out of pious tradition.

FaithT · Sep 13, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
It was the custom when I was a child for women to cover their heads; usually with a light silk scarf, or a hat, times have changed. It was never an legalistic requirement, but was observed out of pious tradition.

Are women going against God by having haircuts and not wearing head coverings or not? If not, then what about everything else in the Bible? The Catholic Church has a pope and Magisterium to interpret Scripture when it’s confusing but the Lutheran church doesn’t have that so how are we to know what to take literally?

Daniel9v9 · Sep 13, 2020

Oh, we are not picking and choosing what to follow and believe. Far from it! Scriptures are authoritative as they're the Word of God.

It's not a sin in and of itself to not wear head coverings or have short hair, so there is no need to be burdened by this. It's sufficient to trust in Christ, who died for you.

What Paul is saying with regards to head covering can subject to confusion, because it involves two concepts that need to be kept distinct, which are (1) the mysteries of the created order, which are still relevant today, and (2) adiaphora; things neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture, and how this relates to our Christian freedom, and the mishandling or abuse of it.

Paul is using a deeper underlying universal truth contained in the created order to deal with a controversy regarding an adiaphoron, a local custom. So in this passage, we have both a universal application and a local application, and they're not necessarily the same. To skip to the conclusion - What Paul is getting at is that we shouldn't use the freedom we have in Christ to injure the faith of others, and our distinct vocations as man and woman ought to be reflected in our words and deeds.

Paul refers to the usage of head coverings a custom or a practice, so it's not for everyone everywhere. It's neither commanded nor forbidden by Scriptures. If a congregation has this as a custom out of reverence, that's good. If a congregation doesn't have this custom out of their freedom in Christ, that's also good. We should never be burdened by outward expressions of faith, but always cling to God's unmerited mercy and grace in His Word and Sacraments.

Simply take comfort in God's grace and honour your local church.

FaithT · Sep 13, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Oh, we are not picking and choosing what to follow and believe. Far from it! Scriptures are authoritative as they're the Word of God.

It's not a sin in and of itself to not wear head coverings or have short hair, so there is no need to be burdened by this. It's sufficient to trust in Christ, who died for you.

What Paul is saying with regards to head covering can subject to confusion, because it involves two concepts that need to be kept distinct, which are (1) the mysteries of the created order, which are still relevant today, and (2) adiaphora; things neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture, and how this relates to our Christian freedom, and the mishandling or abuse of it.

Paul is using a deeper underlying universal truth contained in the created order to deal with a controversy regarding an adiaphoron, a local custom. So in this passage, we have both a universal application and a local application, and they're not necessarily the same. To skip to the conclusion - What Paul is getting at is that we shouldn't use the freedom we have in Christ to injure the faith of others, and our distinct vocations as man and woman ought to be reflected in our words and deeds.

Paul refers to the usage of head coverings a custom or a practice, so it's not for everyone everywhere. It's neither commanded nor forbidden by Scriptures. If a congregation has this as a custom out of reverence, that's good. If a congregation doesn't have this custom out of their freedom in Christ, that's also good. We should never be burdened by outward expressions of faith, but always cling to God's unmerited mercy and grace in His Word and Sacraments.

Simply take comfort in God's grace and honour your local church.

Forgive my ignorance but what does “mysteries of the created order“ mean?

Daniel9v9 · Sep 13, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Forgive my ignorance but what does “mysteries of the created order“ mean?

Ah, sorry. What is meant here is that how God created man and woman is not arbitrary, but full of meaning. There is a Biblical understanding of what it means to be male and female before and after the fall. Paul talks about this in a few places, such as when talking about marriage and single life, and the office of the ministry, but it's often something that is overlooked.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 14, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Are women going against God by having haircuts and not wearing head coverings or not? If not, then what about everything else in the Bible? The Catholic Church has a pope and Magisterium to interpret Scripture when it’s confusing but the Lutheran church doesn’t have that so how are we to know what to take literally?

Adiaphora; Pastor actually addressed that in his sermon yesterday: Sermon: Welcoming Those who Differ (Romans 14:1-12) by The Church Door: Sermons and Bible Studies with Rev. Matthew Fenn • A podcast on Anchor

tampasteve · Sep 14, 2020

Adiaphora. Coming from the RCC, I can say that I liked it when women wore it out of modesty or piety, and I would feel the same way in a Lutheran liturgy. However, I also feel it would not fit the general rhythm of a more charismatic service, it would almost be a distraction, which is the opposite of the desired impression.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 14, 2020

tampasteve said:
Adiaphora. Coming from the RCC, I can say that I liked it when women wore it out of modesty or piety, and I would feel the same way in a Lutheran liturgy. However, I also feel it would not fit the general rhythm of a more charismatic service, it would almost be a distraction, which is the opposite of the desired impression.

This is exactly how our Confessions address Adiaphora!

FaithT · Sep 14, 2020

tampasteve said:
Adiaphora. Coming from the RCC, I can say that I liked it when women wore it out of modesty or piety, and I would feel the same way in a Lutheran liturgy. However, I also feel it would not fit the general rhythm of a more charismatic service, it would almost be a distraction, which is the opposite of the desired impression.

My church is so contemporary that it would look really strange to arrive in a head covering.

FaithT · Sep 14, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Adiaphora; Pastor actually addressed that in his sermon yesterday: Sermon: Welcoming Those who Differ (Romans 14:1-12) by The Church Door: Sermons and Bible Studies with Rev. Matthew Fenn • A podcast on Anchor

It seems to me that Paul was clear. Women shouldn’t have short hair and should wear a head covering. Why do you and Daniel think this is an example of adiaphora?

tampasteve · Sep 14, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
This is exactly how our Confessions address Adiaphora!

Haha, exactly

I honestly do love this, when it is done with true intentions and in the right place.

Daniel9v9 · Sep 14, 2020

Hope1960 said:
It seems to me that Paul was clear. Women shouldn’t have short hair and should wear a head covering. Why do you and Daniel think this is an example of adiaphora?

Because of the context, and how Paul refers to this as a practice or custom (which implies something local, not universal), and that the Church has no rule for this. Perhaps we can think of it as Paul saying something to the effect of: "We have no rule about this, but if you want to be contentious about it, then do this, which is a good reflection of God's created order."

So we always want to uphold God's Word, but how it's applied can vary a little depending on the context.
To emphasise this point a little further, if you look at the Jerusalem Council's letter (Acts 15) to us, the gentiles, it's almost comically short. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, but in a joyful way! All external practices are entirely omitted, and this certainly extends to head coverings. The reason for this, of course, is because we are justified by faith, not by works.

So, we want to uphold God's Word in reverence, and we can do that by honouring our local pastor and not worry about things that are neither forbidden nor commanded by Scripture. Hope this helps!

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 15, 2020

Hope1960 said:
It seems to me that Paul was clear. Women shouldn’t have short hair and should wear a head covering. Why do you and Daniel think this is an example of adiaphora?

Look to whom the Epistle was addressed; one particular Church. There was obviously something in particular regarding that Church. Not much mention anywhere else. Remember that when a rule initiated in the interest of good order in Church, those who obsess over such rules are putting legalism ahead of the Gospel. Legalism is idolatry.

FaithT · Sep 15, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Because of the context, and how Paul refers to this as a practice or custom (which implies something local, not universal), and that the Church has no rule for this. Perhaps we can think of it as Paul saying something to the effect of: "We have no rule about this, but if you want to be contentious about it, then do this, which is a good reflection of God's created order."

So we always want to uphold God's Word, but how it's applied can vary a little depending on the context.
To emphasise this point a little further, if you look at the Jerusalem Council's letter (Acts 15) to us, the gentiles, it's almost comically short. I don't mean this in a blasphemous or disrespectful way, but in a joyful way! All external practices are entirely omitted, and this certainly extends to head coverings. The reason for this, of course, is because we are justified by faith, not by works.

So, we want to uphold God's Word in reverence, and we can do that by honouring our local pastor and not worry about things that are neither forbidden nor commanded by Scripture. Hope this helps!

It helps a LOT. Thanks!

BreadAlone · Sep 16, 2020

I was just reading this passage in my daily readings today! How providential.

I have a bit of a different take....

One of my professors at Concordia indicated that this was in fact not a customary mandate from St. Paul; to the contrary, the common custom in Judaism was for the *men* to cover their heads while praying, as occurs in Judaism today as well. And yet, he says men should not cover their heads. Further, he ascribes the impetus for women wearing head coverings to offending the Holy Angels. What care have they for local custom?

Someone said above that the Church has no universal rule in this regard, but historically women covered their heads in the Divine Service. In living memory this was the case even in our Churches. The fact that this has ceased is the result of modernity. We should be upfront about this fact even when discussing whether or not it is a universal requirement-it WAS, essentially, a universal custom.

Someone above said that St. Paul said hair will "do the trick." Not so. He said if women don't cover their heads, they might as well have shorn heads, which is a disgrace. Long hair is a symbol of submission to God's created order in the world. A head covering is a further symbol of submission in the Church, mysteriously so as not to offend the Angels, who were our tutors in times past concerning God's created order.

Here's a closing anecdote: In one of the conservative Lutheran Facebook discussion groups, the fact that "we don't require head coverings, either" was used to bolster the argument that God's appointed order for the Holy Ministry was also an antiquated "custom." Women should not have to be "silent in the Churches" either, they say, but should be allowed to preach, as these were simply "local customs." But to the contrary, there were plenty of temple priestesses in antiquity, just as there were men praying with heads covered. The context of the passages do not seem to imply custom at all.

I would welcome critiques of these points!

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