Temporal Salvation?

JLB777 · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"Yet, Jesus said in the clearest of language, that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.""

That's what Jesus said in the PLAINEST OF LANGUAGE. But it seems you would just rather not believe what He said. Why?

There is NO WAY to misunderstand what Jesus said, unless one just doesn't want to accept what He said.

Recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. That IS what He said.

Yes, I did. For convenience. The second part of the verse does NOT change the first part into something else. In fact, it only STRENGTHENS what the first part says.

iow, "no one", meaning NO PERSON can remove a believer from God's hand.

So, thanks for pointing that out.

I just told you.

You know better than to lie about this. I HAVE addressed the "and". What YOU cannot and have not shown is that there is ANY kind of "conditional clause" in v.27 that results in any conclusion in v.28, even though that has been your claim all along.

You simply CANNOT prove your claim. Your claim is empty.

v.27 is a description about what Jesus' sheep DO. There is nothing about what they DO to receive eternal life, which is your wild claim.

In fact, since they are ALREADY His sheep, they ALREADY have eternal life. So there is nothing in v.27 about what His sheep do that will result in eternal life.

The MERE FACT that they ARE His sheep means they HAVE eternal life.

And the result of having eternal life is NEVER PERISHING, obviously.

But, it is only obvious to those who don't have an unbiblical agenda. To those with an unbiblical agenda, they are blind to the truth of what Jesus said.

Again, I WILL address the conjunction of continuation. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, AND, v.28 is the result of being given eternal life; the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Got it?

Ha. v.28 IS a stand alone promise from the Lord. Those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, where is any kind of conditional clause that links "knowing and following" with "never perish" ? I'll tell you where. Nowhere. That's where.

Those who have a firm grip on language easily see that. v.27 is a description of what they DO, AND v.28 is the result of receiving eternal life; they shall never perish.

But you won't see this. The reason His sheep SHALL NEVER PERISH is becuase 9of what they have been given, which is eternal life. There is nothing about "knowing and following" that results in having eternal life. That comes from faith alone in Christ alone. I've already given you the long list of verses that tell us clearly that belief is the basis for possessing eternal life.

So you are just wasting your time trying to push your ridiculous notion that v.27 is a conditional clause that is the protasis for the apodosis in v.28.

Protasis vs Apodosis - What's the difference?
the difference between protasis and apodosis
is that protasis is (logic|grammar) the antecedent in a conditional sentence while apodosis is (logic|grammar) the consequential clause in a conditional sentence.

It is obvious to everyone who has a firm grasp on language that the "and" at the beginning of v.28 in NO WAY creates what you want it to mean.

And...you have ZERO verses that say this.

otoh, I have many many verses that say that both salvation and eternal life is obtained by belief. Not hearing/following/doing/etc.

And you've seen them all. Which means you don't believe any of them.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The promise of not being snatched out of his hand is to those who hear and follow Him.

Those who don’t continue to hear and follow him may become lost.

JLB

JLB777 · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
And” is a conjunction that ties together the previous verse which you have purposely not quoted for the last 8 years that I have been discussing this doctrine with you

I agree.

JLB777 · Sep 11, 2020

Gr8Grace said:
The simplicity of the Christian way of life:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Trust in His person( Gods only begotten Son,100% true deity 100% true humanity) and work(He paid for all sin and reconciled the world to Himself{equal privilege,equal opportunity for ALL}] for your salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

Grow in His Grace and knowledge. Under your RIGHT pastor teacher. 2 Pet 3:18, Eph 4:11,1 Cor 12:28. Study,study and study. Listen,metabolize and apply His doctrine's.

Do not quench the Spirit.1 Thess 5:19

Do not grieve the Spirit. Eph 4:30

Name and site your sins to God( When we quench or grieve the Spirit.) 1 John 1:9

Be filled and walk in the Spirit. Eph 5:18,Gal 5:16; Gal 5:25

Fulfill this.........And you are living the Christian way of life or the Spiritual life.

Rom 8:16~~New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Seems to me a few on this forum don't understand the Spiritual life. If they did, they would KNOW that they are a child of God........Right now and forever.

Romans 8~~1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

How can Christian still have eternal life remaining in him if he hates his brother?

JLB

GDL · Sep 11, 2020

JLB777 said:
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The promise of not being snatched out of his hand is to those who hear and follow Him.

Pretty clear. Thanks JLB777.

This can be stated in a conditional form:

IF sheep hear Jesus' voice and follow Jesus and are known by Jesus as His sheep, THEN the sheep belong to Jesus, and Jesus gives to His sheep eternal life, and His sheep shall never perish, and no one shall snatch His sheep out of His hand.

This can be listed:

Jesus sheep:
1) Hear Jesus' voice
2) Are known by Jesus
3) Follow Jesus
4) Are given eternal life by Jesus
5) Shall never perish
6) Cannot be snatched out of Jesus' hand

Additionally, there is likely some chiastic structure being used here by John in list points 1-3. The way John places "I know them" seems to be a quick identifier of this:

(A) Jesus' sheep hear Jesus' voice
. (B) Jesus knows His sheep
(A) Jesus' sheep follow Jesus

This parallelism says Jesus knows as His sheep as those who hear Jesus voice and follow Jesus. If a sheep doesn't both hear Jesus' voice and follow Jesus, then Jesus knows the sheep is not His. The same chiastic structure may also be in points 4-6.

As JLB777 has correctly stated, the coordinating conjunction "and" ties all of these statements together. To separate any of these coordinated statements is clearly an agenda-driven eisegesis at this point of observation. Hearing Jesus voice, following Jesus, and being known by Jesus as His sheep are all conditions of being Jesus' sheep per these verses, and for being given eternal life, never perishing, and being protected by Jesus.

Additionally, per 10:26, hearing Jesus' voice, following Jesus, and being known by Jesus are all descriptions of those who believe Jesus is the Christ.

John builds his description of Biblical Belief in Jesus as he proceeds in his Gospel. Additionally, he tightens up, clarifies & defines some important terminology in 1 John.

Arguing against what JLB777 has said about John10:28 is purely eisegesis and a terrible abuse of Scripture. Trying to convince such a repetitive eisegete for however long he or she attempts to abuse Scripture seems futile. For some of us, that's 8 years. For others it's much less. It's good to see that there are those willing to do justice to Scripture against the repetitive injustice being done - so the folly of a fool doesn't stand unanswered.

What in the world is the agenda here? This is simple Scripture and simple grammar.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

JLB777 said:
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Great verses that teach eternal security.

Once Given Eternal Life, Shall Never Perish. OGELSNP

The promise of not being snatched out of his hand is to those who hear and follow Him.

Everyone who has a firm grasp on language KNOWS the verses do NOT say that.

v.27 describes what Jesus' sheep DO. v.28 describes what Jesus DOES for His sheep. And the result of what Jesus DID is that THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who don’t continue to hear and follow him may become lost.

If by "lost" you mean "lost their salvation", then why in heaven's name haven't you EVER provided ANY verse that says so in plain language?

Eternal life is based on what Jesus does for His sheep, believers. He gives them eternal life, and the result is that they shall never perish.

You'll NEVER refute this very clear principle. You have already rejected what Jesus taught.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

JLB777 said:
I agree.

All you have agreed to do is reject what Jesus DOES for His sheep, which is to give eternal life, AND the result is that they shall never perish.

It's so clear grade schoolers can understand.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

JLB777 said:
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

How can Christian still have eternal life remaining in him if he hates his brother?
JLB

Quit changing the goal posts.

The verse DOESN'T say "remaining in him". It says "abiding in him". And abiding is ALWAYS about fellowship, a concept that you don't believe is biblical.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

JLB777 said: ↑
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The promise of not being snatched out of his hand is to those who hear and follow Him.

GDL said:
Pretty clear. Thanks JLB777.

This can be stated in a conditional form:

IF sheep hear Jesus' voice and follow Jesus and are known by Jesus as His sheep, THEN the sheep belong to Jesus, and Jesus gives to His sheep eternal life, and His sheep shall never perish, and no one shall snatch His sheep out of His hand.

Except Jesus NEVER included ANY kind of "conditional clause" or form in the 2 verses.

This can be listed:
Jesus sheep:
1) Hear Jesus' voice
2) Are known by Jesus
3) Follow Jesus
4) Are given eternal life by Jesus
5) Shall never perish
6) Cannot be snatched out of Jesus' hand

Here is the key. Jesus gives eternal life to those who are ALREADY His sheep.

Where is the verse that says that one BECOMES His sheep by hearing and following Him?

You know as I do that there are NO such verses.

However, there are a multitude of verses that say that eternal life is obtained on the basis of belief in Christ for salvation.

Additionally, there is likely some chiastic structure being used here by John in list points 1-3. The way John places "I know them" seems to be a quick identifier of this:

(A) Jesus' sheep hear Jesus' voice
. (B) Jesus knows His sheep
(A) Jesus' sheep follow Jesus

Strain at gnats all you want. Doesn't work. Never will.

And your use of "there is likely..." only proves that you are trying to force your opinion.

This parallelism says Jesus knows as His sheep as those who hear Jesus voice and follow Jesus.

This is a blatant attempt to twist Scripture to say what it does NOT say.

If a sheep doesn't both hear Jesus' voice and follow Jesus, then Jesus knows the sheep is not His. The same chiastic structure may also be in points 4-6.

More twisting of Scripture.

As JLB777 has correctly stated, the coordinating conjunction "and" ties all of these statements together.

Yes, the 2 verses ARE connected by the conjunction of continuation. So what? You are proving nothing.

Here is a simple summary of both verses:

v.27 describes what Jesus' sheep DO. v.28 describes what Jesus DOES for His sheep. And the result of what Jesus DID is that THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

To separate any of these coordinated statements is clearly an agenda-driven eisegesis at this point of observation.

Your blatant twisting of Scripture is far worse than eisegesis. And I've never used eisegesis, as you are.

Hearing Jesus voice, following Jesus, and being known by Jesus as His sheep are all conditions of being Jesus' sheep per these verses

No, not 'per these verses', but rather, per YOUR OWN BIASED OPINION.

Becoming a sheep of Jesus is becoming a Christian, a new creature. Which is by faith alone in Christ alone.

All you are trying to do is insert your biased opinion of works into how to get saved.

and for being given eternal life, never perishing, and being protected by Jesus.

Oh, yeah? Let's see what the Bible says about who receives eternal life.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

There it is, in black and white. Eternal life is given to those who believe in Christ for it.

I'll say it again: v.27 is a description of what saved people DO. Not HOW a person gets saved, as you are trying to make it.

Arguing against what JLB777 has said about John10:28 is purely eisegesis and a terrible abuse of Scripture.

Thanks for your biased opinion. And it's wrong, just as JLB's opinion is just as wrong.

What in the world is the agenda here? This is simple Scripture and simple grammar.

This is what's so amazing!! v.27 and v.28 are SO simple that it's very strange how many people seem unable to read it properly, even though it's as straightforward and clear.

GDL · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
However, there are a multitude of verses that say that eternal life is obtained on the basis of belief in Christ for salvation

Yes, and in John10:27 John shows how Jesus elaborated on what Biblical Faith in Him looks like. Those that Believe in Him hear His voice & follow Him.

FreeGrace2 said:
v.27 describes what Jesus' sheep DO.

There you go, nice work! Now you get it! Those who believe Jesus is the Christ hear Jesus' voice and follow Jesus.

The neat thing about grammar and language is we can use logic & different structures to say the same things:

If Jesus sheep hear His voice & follow Him, then those sheep who do not hear His voice & follow Him are not His sheep.

Since Jesus is using the illustration of His sheep, meaning those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him, to show who believes Jesus is the Christ, then those sheep who do not hear His voice and follow Him, do not believe He is the Christ.

Your "keys" only open your eisegetical mind.

My "strain[ing] at gnats" is based in having learned & still learning to identify very important structures in the writings that provide details and confirmations of instruction for us to understand. Your silly comment is paramount to saying all the chiastic parallelism used by the writers of Scripture and thus by the Word Himself is straining at gnats.

Such structure would affirm and assert more emphatically who Jesus knows to be His sheep - only, at this point of John's progressing detail, those sheep who hear Jesus' voice and follow Him are His sheep. And since this is all in the context of believing Jesus is the Christ, John is giving us more detail of what Biblical Belief looks like. If we Biblically believe Jesus is the Christ, then we hear His voice and follow Him.

Your ridiculously undefined and even momentary concept of Biblical Faith is simply misleading and unbiblical. And it seems that some have been correcting your errors for years, which, if true, tells me you have an even more serious problem than I came to consider there being after only having dealt with you for a few weeks.

I'm not sure I've ever seen someone butcher Scripture as you do, discredit other Christians that most think have high levels of competency in such things as the Greek language (for such discrediting you have been politely charged with "hubris!"), and so on.

One of the vital things you don't grasp is that Biblical Faith is detailed to ever greater degrees in the Word of God. It's not the nebulous, undefined thing some try to make it our to be. The area of John10 you keep carving up is providing some of that detail as to how Biblical Faith is being explained.

Biblical Faith that Jesus is the Christ is seen in people who hear His voice and follow Him (no matter what Jesus may say that may seem harsh & offensive), because He is the Christ (who tested disciples with harsh & potentially offensive language in John6 to weed out those who didn't really believe). Biblical Faith is not momentary. Biblical Faith is a continuing state & lifestyle. Hearing His voice & following Him is [a part of] Biblical Faith. The word "hear" can also trend into "obey."

Your arguments are terrible and an attack against Truth. I and many I've observed dealing with you know that Salvation is by Grace and by Faith in Jesus Christ. What we're trying (unsuccessfully) to show you is that there is more to Biblical Faith than you have grasped. If you've truly been looking at John10 as you do for 8 years +/-, then shame on you. How's that for a conditional clause?

Get out of your campground and grow a little.

GDL · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Quit changing the goal posts.

The verse DOESN'T say "remaining in him". It says "abiding in him". And abiding is ALWAYS about fellowship, a concept that you don't believe is biblical.

Wrong again - a condition in you that remains/abides/stays (but doesn't have to)! Please feel free to discredit one of the favored Lexicons:

Per BDAG:

4816 μένω
• μένω (Hom.+) impf. ἔμενον; fut. μενῶ; 1 aor. ἔμεινα, impv. μεῖνον (Hv 3, 1, 9); pf. ptc. pl. μεμενηκότας 2 Macc 8:1; plpf. μεμενήκειν 1J 2:19 (on the lack of augment s. B-D-F §66, 1; W-S. §12, 4; Mlt-H. 190).

1. remain, stay, intr. (My highlighting - bold & underlines)

a. a pers. or thing remains where he, she, or it is.

α. of a location stay, oft. in the special sense live, dwell, lodge (Horapollo 2, 49 μ. alternating w. οἰκέω) w. ἐν and the dat. (Ps.-Demosth. 43, 75 μ. ἐν τοῖς οἴκοις; Vi. Aesopi G 12 p. 259, 6 P.) ἐν οἰκίᾳ Lk 8:27; ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ οἰκίᾳ Lk 10:7; J 8:35a; ἐν τ. οἴκῳ σου Lk 19:5. ἐν τῷ πλοίῳ remain in the ship Ac 27:31. μ. ἐν τῇ Γαλιλαίᾳ J 7:9.—Ac 9:43; 20:15 v.l.; 2 Ti 4:20. κατὰ πόλιν remain in the city MPol 5:1 (Just., A I, 67, 3). W. an adv. of place ἐκεῖ Mt 10:11; Mk 6:10; Lk 9:4; J 2:12; 10:40; 11:54 (s. διατρίβω); Hs 9, 11, 7. ὧδε Mt 26:38; Mk 14:34; Hs 9, 11, 1. ποῦ μένεις; where do you live? J 1:38; cp. vs. 39 (Sb 2639 ποῦ μένι Θερμοῦθις; Pel.-Leg. 7, 27; Nicetas Eugen. 1, 230 H. ποῦ μένεις

. W. acc. of time (Demetr.: 722 fgm. 1, 11 Jac.; JosAs 20:8; Jos., Ant. 1, 299) J 1:39b; 4:40b; 11:6; Ac 21:7; D 11:5; 12:2. W. time-indications of a different kind ἕως ἂν ἐξέλθητε Mt 10:11. ὡς μῆνας τρεῖς Lk 1:56. εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα J 8:35b. ἐπὶ πλείονα χρόνον Ac 18:20. W. prep. παρά τινι μ. stay with someone (Cebes 9, 2; Jos., Ant. 20, 54) J 1:39b; 4:40a; Ac 18:3 (live with is also prob.: Lucian, Timon 10); 21:7, 8. παρ᾽ ὑμῖν μένων when I was (staying) with you J 14:25. πρός τινα with someone Ac 18:3 D; D 12:2. ἐπί τινα remain on someone J 1:32f. σύν τινι with someone (4 Macc 18:9) Lk 1:56; 24:29b. Also μ. μετά τινος (Gen 24:55) Lk 24:29a; Hs 9, 11, 1; 3; 6; 7. καθ᾽ ἑαυτόν live by oneself, in one’s own quarters Ac 28:16 (of what is called in Lat. custodia libera; s. BAFCS III 276, 364f; 384f). Of a corpse μ. ἐπὶ τοῦ σταυροῦ stay (hanging) on the cross J 19:31. Of a branch: ἐν τῇ ἀμπέλῳ remain on the vine, i.e. not be cut off 15:4b. Of stones μ. ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ stay on the road Hv 3, 2, 9. Of stones that remain in the divine structure, and are not removed Hs 9, 13, 4; 9. Also in imagery τὸ κάλυμμα ἐπὶ τῇ ἀναγνώσει τῆς παλαιᾶς διαθήκης μένει the veil remains unlifted at the reading of the OT (and hinders the right understanding of it) 2 Cor 3:14. Abs. Ac 16:15.

β. in transf. sense, of someone who does not leave a certain realm or sphere: remain, continue, abide (Pla., Ep. 10, 358c μένε ἐν τοῖς ἤθεσιν, οἷσπερ καὶ νῦν μένεις; Alex. Aphr., An. II 1 p. 2, 15 μ. ἐν ταῖς ἀπορίαις=remain overcome by doubts; Jos., Ant. 4, 185; TestJos. 1:3 ἐν τ. ἀληθείᾳ; Just., D. 8, 3 ἐν … τῷ τῆς φιλοσωφίας τρόπῳ) ἐν ἁγνείᾳ IPol 5:2; cp. IEph 10:3. ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ remain in the teaching of Christ 2J 9a; cp. vs. 9b (2 Macc 8:1 μ. ἐν τῷ Ἰουδαϊσμῷ). ἐν πίστει καὶ ἀγάπῃ 1 Ti 2:15. μένε ἐν οἷς ἔμαθες continue in what you have learned 2 Ti 3:14. ἐν τῷ λόγῳ τῷ ἐμῷ J 8:31. μείνατε ἐν τῇ ἀγάπῃ τῇ ἐμῇ continue in my love 15:9f; cp. 1J 4:16. ἐν τῷ φωτί 2:10. ἐν τῷ θανάτῳ 3:14. ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ J 12:46. Without ἐν AcPlCor 2:36. The phrase μ. ἔν τινι is a favorite of J to denote an inward, enduring personal communion. So of God in his relation to Christ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοὶ μένων the Father, who abides in me J 14:10. Of Christians in their relation to Christ J 6:56; 15:4ac, 5-7; 1J 2:6, 24c. Of Christ relating to Christians J 15:4a, 5 (Goodsp., Probs. 112-15). Of Christians relating to God 1J 2:24c, 27f; 3:6, 24a; 4:13. Of God relating to Christians 1J 3:24; 4:12f, 15.—Vice versa, of someth. that remains in someone; likew. in Johannine usage: of the word of God 1J 2:14. Of the words of Christ J 15:7b; cp. 1J 2:24ab. Of the anointing fr. heaven vs. 27. Of the love of God 1J 3:17. Of the seed of God 3:9. Of truth 2J 2. The possession is shown to be permanent by the expr. ἔχειν τι μένον ἐν ἑαυτῷ have someth. continually, permanently 1J 3:15; the word of God J 5:38. Instead of μ. ἔν τινι also μ. παρά τινι remain with someone: of the Spirit of truth J 14:17. Also of the wrath of God, μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν it remains upon him 3:36.—GPercorara, De verbo ‘manere’ ap. Jo.: Div. Thomas Piac. 40, ’37, 159-71.

b. a pers. or thing continues in the same state (ParJer 7:37 ἔμεινε διδάσκων; ApcSed 11:13 ἀκίνητοι μένετε; Just., D. 90, and Lucian, Laps. 16 ἐν τῇ τάξει μ.) 1 Cor 7:20, 24. μένει ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸ διηνεκές he remains a priest forever Hb 7:3. αὐτὸς μόνος μένει it remains alone J 12:24. μενέτω ἄγαμος 1 Cor 7:11. ἀσάλευτος Ac 27:41. πιστός 2 Ti 2:13. ἀόρατος Dg 6:4. (μëεëίëνατε νικηταί: μείëνë[α]τëε Ox 1602, 30f is a misreading; difft. AcPl Ha 8, 22//BMM recto 28=HTR 31, 79 n. 2, ln. 10; s. CSchmidt mg. on AcPl Ha 8, 22 [μ]εëγëαëς ἐπëίκειται πιρασμός; Borger GGA 137). ἀσκανδάλιστος μείνῃ ἡ … ἐκκλησία AcPlCor 1:16. μ. μετά τινος remain in fellowship w. someone 1J 2:19. Of one who has divorced his wife remain by himself, remain unmarried Hm 4, 1, 6; 10; 4, 4, 2. οὐχὶ μένον σοὶ ἔμενεν; was it (the piece of ground) not yours, as long as it remained (unsold)? Ac 5:4 (cp. 1 Macc 15:7 and s. OHoltzmann, ZKG 14, 1893, 327-36).—W. adv. (Just., A I, 29, 3, D. 58, 3 βεβαίως) οὕτως μ. remain as one is (i.e., unmarried) 1 Cor 7:40. ἁγνῶς B 2:3. μ. ὡς ἐγώ remain as I am 1 Cor 7:8.

2. to continue to exist, remain, last, persist, continue to live, intr.

a. of pers. (Ps 9:8 ὁ κύριος εἰς τ. αἰῶνα μ.; 101:13; Da 6:27; Just., D. 128, 4 ἄγγελοι … ἀεὶ μένοντες) ὁ Χριστὸς μ. εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα Christ remains (here) forever J 12:34; cp. Hb 7:24; 1J 2:17. Of God AcPl Ha 2, 28; 9, 11. Pregnant remain (alive), be alive (Epict. 3, 24, 97; Diog. L. 7, 174; Achilles Tat. 8, 10. μένειν ἐν τῷ ζῆν Plut., Mor. 1042d; Eccl 7:15; Just., A I, 63, 17) J 21:22f; 1 Cor 15:6; Phil 1:25; Rv 17:10.

b. of things (Maximus Tyr. 4, 8b and Polyaenus 7, 34: γῆ μένει; Socrat., Ep. 31 [=33]; Hierocles 15, 454 ὁ πόνος παρῆλθεν, τὸ καλὸν μένει; Just., A I, 18, 2 αἴσθησις … μένει; Ath. 19, 2 μένει σύστασις) of a city ἔμεινεν ἂν μέχρι τῆς σήμερον it would have lasted until today Mt 11:23. μένουσα πόλις a permanent city Hb 13:14.—ἡ φιλαδελφία μενέτω continue 13:1 (JCambier, Salesianum 11, ’49, 62-96).—J 9:41; 15:16. εἰ τὸ ἔργον μενεῖ if the work survives 1 Cor 3:14. ὕπαρξις Hb 10:34. δικαιοσύνη 2 Cor 9:9 (Ps 111:9). ἡ κατ᾽ ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις τοῦ θεοῦ Ro 9:11 (of God’s counsel Ps 32:11). λόγος θεοῦ endure 1 Pt 1:23 (Just., D. 61, 2; cp. 1 Esdr 4:38 ἡ ἀλήθεια μένει). τ. ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τ. αἰῶνα vs. 25 (Is 40:8). ἡ βρῶσις ἡ μένουσα εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον J 6:27. τὴν δύναμιν σου τὴν μένουσαν Rv 11:7 v.l. ζώσης φωνῆς καὶ μενούσης Papias (2:4). τὸ μένον what is permanent (Philo, Leg. All. 3, 100.—Opp. τὸ καταργούμενον) 2 Cor 3:11. μένει πίστις, ἐλπὶς, ἀγάπη 1 Cor 13:13 (WMarxsen, D. ‘Bleiben’ im 1 Cor 13:13, OCullmann Festschr., ’72, 223-29; on the eschatology cp. En 97:6-10 and s. the lit. on ἀγάπη 1a.—For the contrast πίπτει [vs. 8]—μένει cp. Pla., Crat. 44, 440a εἰ μεταπίπτει πάντα χρήματα καὶ μηδὲν μένει). Opp. σαλευόμενα Hb 12:27.

3. wait for, await, trans.

a. of pers.: wait for someone who is arriving (Hom.; Thu. 4, 124, 4; X., An. 4, 4, 20; Pla., Leg. 8, 833c; Polyb. 4, 8, 4; Tob 2:2 BA; 2 Macc 7:30; TestJob 11:1; Jos., Ant. 13, 19) τινά w. the place indicated ἔμενον ἡμᾶς ἐν Τρῳάδι they were waiting for us in Troas Ac 20:5.

b. of things, such as dangers or misfortunes that await or threaten someone (trag.; Kaibel 654, 9 κἀμὲ μένει τὸ θανεῖν; SibOr 4, 114 v.l. σὲ) θλίψεις με μένουσιν Ac 20:23.—Of the 118 passages in which μένω occurs in the NT, 67 are found in the Johannine writings (40 in the gosp.; 24 in 1J; 3 in 2J).—JHeise, Bleiben: Menein in d. Johan. Schr., ’67; FHauck, TW IV 578-93: μένω and related words.—B. 836. DELG. M-M. TW.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
However, there are a multitude of verses that say that eternal life is obtained on the basis of belief in Christ for salvation.

GDL said:
Yes, and in John10:27 John shows how Jesus elaborated on what Biblical Faith in Him looks like.

No He didn't. He simply described what His sheep (already saved and given eternal life) DO. In fact, He was making a "policy statement" about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.

Kinda like:

1 Cor 8:2 - Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
Eph 5:28 - In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
2 Thess 3:7 - For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you
1 Tim 3:15 - if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
2 Pet 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

And YOU ought to think on these things. The Bible is full of what believers OUGHT TO DO. And that is what Jesus was communicating in John 10:27.

Those that Believe in Him hear His voice & follow Him.

Exactly!! It's what believers OUGHT TO DO.

There you go, nice work! Now you get it! Those who believe Jesus is the Christ hear Jesus' voice and follow Jesus.

The problem is that you still don't get it. You and JLB still think hearing and following are conditions for BECOMING Jesus' sheep and receiving eternal life.

Yet, I gave a long list of verses in post #468 that say SPECIFICALLY that eternal life is given on the basis of belief in Christ.

The neat thing about grammar and language is we can use logic & different structures to say the same things:
If Jesus sheep hear His voice & follow Him, then those sheep who do not hear His voice & follow Him are not His sheep.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter how you want to SPIN it, v.27 does NOT constitute a conditional clause.

Those who would make that claim only reveal their lack of knowledge about what a conditional clause even is.

My "strain[ing] at gnats" is based in having learned & still learning to identify very important structures in the writings that provide details and confirmations of instruction for us to understand.

Since you STILL DON'T understand what a conditional clause is, you have no right or authority to tell anyone else about how "much you've supposedly learned and studied.

Your silly comment is paramount to saying all the chiastic parallelism used by the writers of Scripture and thus by the Word Himself is straining at gnats.

I'm not saying anything about anyone else. This is just about YOU and JLB. And your failure to recognize what a conditional clause is and isn't.

And v.27 ISN'T a conditional clause.

Your ridiculously undefined and even momentary concept of Biblical Faith is simply misleading and unbiblical.

Then prove your claim. I claim your claim is empty.

And it seems that some have been correcting your errors for years, which, if true, tells me you have an even more serious problem than I came to consider there being after only having dealt with you for a few weeks.

So, just who would "some" be over the "years"? Can you even name one?

I'm not sure I've ever seen someone butcher Scripture as you do, discredit other Christians that most think have high levels of competency in such things as the Greek language (for such discrediting you have been politely charged with "hubris!"), and so on.

Neither YOU nor JLB have shown any kind of competency in understanding v.27, since there are NO WORDS that make up a conditional clause. All you 2 do is spin the verses to fit your own theological grid. And that is what eisegesis is.

One of the vital things you don't grasp is that Biblical Faith is detailed to ever greater degrees in the Word of God. It's not the nebulous, undefined thing some try to make it our to be.

I don't care about the "some" that you seem to be referring to. I care about what the Bible SAYS. So, if I have misunderstood or misrepresented what Biblical Faith is, then please help me out and explain what I'm missing. Tell me what it really is, if it is something different than I believe it do be. Thanks.

The area of John10 you keep carving up is providing some of that detail as to how Biblical Faith is being explained.

Yeah, right. I'm "carving up" John 10. How absurd. Just explain to me what Biblical Faith really is, if you can.

Biblical Faith that Jesus is the Christ is seen in people who hear His voice and follow Him (no matter what Jesus may say that may seem harsh & offensive), because He is the Christ (who tested disciples with harsh & potentially offensive language in John6 to weed out those who didn't really believe). Biblical Faith is not momentary. Biblical Faith is a continuing state & lifestyle. Hearing His voice & following Him is [a part of] Biblical Faith. The word "hear" can also trend into "obey."

What a hodge podge word salad!! It is clear that you don't understand the Greek meaning of 'pistis' or 'pisteuo'. What you call "Biblical Faith" is of your own (or someone else's) opinion of what it should be.

I know that you can't find ANY verse that used YOUR explanation for what Biblical Faith is.

But I can show you many verses that tell YOU exactly how to have salvation. It's called "saving faith". Ever heard of it?

Your arguments are terrible and an attack against Truth.

Thank you for your opinion.

I and many I've observed dealing with you know that Salvation is by Grace and by Faith in Jesus Christ.

Well then, you and the "many" you've observed are agreeing with me. Here is the verse: Eph 2;8. And don't forget v.9.

What we're trying (unsuccessfully) to show you is that there is more to Biblical Faith than you have grasped.

I find it quite arrogant to presume knowing what others grasp or not. And you sure don't have any clue about what I grasp.

The reason that you 2 are quite unsuccessful in showing me what Biblical Faith is, is that you have shown yourselves to be quite unsuccessful in reading simple and straightforward verses, such as John 10:27,28. You 2 are not even close to understanding what Jesus meant by what He said. You just claim to be.

If you've truly been looking at John10 as you do for 8 years +/-, then shame on you. How's that for a conditional clause?

Well, there you go. When you add the "if", THEN you DO have a conditional clause.

So, please show me the "if" clause in v.27 or v.28.

But, you can't do that, can you. Because there is NO conditional clause in either verse.

Thanks for making my point.

I do appreciate that.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

GDL said:
Wrong again - a condition in you that remains/abides/stays (but doesn't have to)! Please feel free to discredit one of the favored Lexicons:

Per BDAG:

4816 μένω
• μένω (Hom.+) impf. ἔμενον; fut. μενῶ; 1 aor. ἔμεινα, impv. μεῖνον (Hv 3, 1, 9); pf. ptc. pl. μεμενηκότας 2 Macc 8:1; plpf. μεμενήκειν 1J 2:19 (on the lack of augment s. B-D-F §66, 1; W-S. §12, 4; Mlt-H. 190).

1. remain, stay, intr. (My highlighting - bold & underlines)

a. a pers. or thing remains where he, she, or it is.

α. of a location stay, oft. in the special sense live, dwell, lodge (Horapollo 2, 49 μ. alternating w. οἰκέω) w. ἐν and the dat. (Ps.-Demosth. 43, 75 μ. ἐν τοῖς οἴκοις; Vi. Aesopi G 12 p. 259, 6 P.) ἐν οἰκίᾳ Lk 8:27; ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ οἰκίᾳ Lk 10:7; J 8:35a; ἐν τ. οἴκῳ σου Lk 19:5. ἐν τῷ πλοίῳ remain in the ship Ac 27:31. μ. ἐν τῇ Γαλιλαίᾳ J 7:9.—Ac 9:43; 20:15 v.l.; 2 Ti 4:20. κατὰ πόλιν remain in the city MPol 5:1 (Just., A I, 67, 3). W. an adv. of place ἐκεῖ Mt 10:11; Mk 6:10; Lk 9:4; J 2:12; 10:40; 11:54 (s. διατρίβω); Hs 9, 11, 7. ὧδε Mt 26:38; Mk 14:34; Hs 9, 11, 1. ποῦ μένεις; where do you live? J 1:38; cp. vs. 39 (Sb 2639 ποῦ μένι Θερμοῦθις; Pel.-Leg. 7, 27; Nicetas Eugen. 1, 230 H. ποῦ μένεις. W. acc. of time (Demetr.: 722 fgm. 1, 11 Jac.; JosAs 20:8; Jos., Ant. 1, 299) J 1:39b; 4:40b; 11:6; Ac 21:7; D 11:5; 12:2. W. time-indications of a different kind ἕως ἂν ἐξέλθητε Mt 10:11. ὡς μῆνας τρεῖς Lk 1:56. εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα J 8:35b. ἐπὶ πλείονα χρόνον Ac 18:20. W. prep. παρά τινι μ. stay with someone (Cebes 9, 2; Jos., Ant. 20, 54) J 1:39b; 4:40a; Ac 18:3 (live with is also prob.: Lucian, Timon 10); 21:7, 8. παρ᾽ ὑμῖν μένων when I was (staying) with you J 14:25. πρός τινα with someone Ac 18:3 D; D 12:2. ἐπί τινα remain on someone J 1:32f. σύν τινι with someone (4 Macc 18:9) Lk 1:56; 24:29b. Also μ. μετά τινος (Gen 24:55) Lk 24:29a; Hs 9, 11, 1; 3; 6; 7. καθ᾽ ἑαυτόν live by oneself, in one’s own quarters Ac 28:16 (of what is called in Lat. custodia libera; s. BAFCS III 276, 364f; 384f). Of a corpse μ. ἐπὶ τοῦ σταυροῦ stay (hanging) on the cross J 19:31. Of a branch: ἐν τῇ ἀμπέλῳ remain on the vine, i.e. not be cut off 15:4b. Of stones μ. ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ stay on the road Hv 3, 2, 9. Of stones that remain in the divine structure, and are not removed Hs 9, 13, 4; 9. Also in imagery τὸ κάλυμμα ἐπὶ τῇ ἀναγνώσει τῆς παλαιᾶς διαθήκης μένει the veil remains unlifted at the reading of the OT (and hinders the right understanding of it) 2 Cor 3:14. Abs. Ac 16:15.

β. in transf. sense, of someone who does not leave a certain realm or sphere: remain, continue, abide (Pla., Ep. 10, 358c μένε ἐν τοῖς ἤθεσιν, οἷσπερ καὶ νῦν μένεις; Alex. Aphr., An. II 1 p. 2, 15 μ. ἐν ταῖς ἀπορίαις=remain overcome by doubts; Jos., Ant. 4, 185; TestJos. 1:3 ἐν τ. ἀληθείᾳ; Just., D. 8, 3 ἐν … τῷ τῆς φιλοσωφίας τρόπῳ) ἐν ἁγνείᾳ IPol 5:2; cp. IEph 10:3. ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ remain in the teaching of Christ 2J 9a; cp. vs. 9b (2 Macc 8:1 μ. ἐν τῷ Ἰουδαϊσμῷ). ἐν πίστει καὶ ἀγάπῃ 1 Ti 2:15. μένε ἐν οἷς ἔμαθες continue in what you have learned 2 Ti 3:14. ἐν τῷ λόγῳ τῷ ἐμῷ J 8:31. μείνατε ἐν τῇ ἀγάπῃ τῇ ἐμῇ continue in my love 15:9f; cp. 1J 4:16. ἐν τῷ φωτί 2:10. ἐν τῷ θανάτῳ 3:14. ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ J 12:46. Without ἐν AcPlCor 2:36. The phrase μ. ἔν τινι is a favorite of J to denote an inward, enduring personal communion. So of God in his relation to Christ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοὶ μένων the Father, who abides in me J 14:10. Of Christians in their relation to Christ J 6:56; 15:4ac, 5-7; 1J 2:6, 24c. Of Christ relating to Christians J 15:4a, 5 (Goodsp., Probs. 112-15). Of Christians relating to God 1J 2:24c, 27f; 3:6, 24a; 4:13. Of God relating to Christians 1J 3:24; 4:12f, 15.—Vice versa, of someth. that remains in someone; likew. in Johannine usage: of the word of God 1J 2:14. Of the words of Christ J 15:7b; cp. 1J 2:24ab. Of the anointing fr. heaven vs. 27. Of the love of God 1J 3:17. Of the seed of God 3:9. Of truth 2J 2. The possession is shown to be permanent by the expr. ἔχειν τι μένον ἐν ἑαυτῷ have someth. continually, permanently 1J 3:15; the word of God J 5:38. Instead of μ. ἔν τινι also μ. παρά τινι remain with someone: of the Spirit of truth J 14:17. Also of the wrath of God, μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν it remains upon him 3:36.—GPercorara, De verbo ‘manere’ ap. Jo.: Div. Thomas Piac. 40, ’37, 159-71.

b. a pers. or thing continues in the same state (ParJer 7:37 ἔμεινε διδάσκων; ApcSed 11:13 ἀκίνητοι μένετε; Just., D. 90, and Lucian, Laps. 16 ἐν τῇ τάξει μ.) 1 Cor 7:20, 24. μένει ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸ διηνεκές he remains a priest forever Hb 7:3. αὐτὸς μόνος μένει it remains alone J 12:24. μενέτω ἄγαμος 1 Cor 7:11. ἀσάλευτος Ac 27:41. πιστός 2 Ti 2:13. ἀόρατος Dg 6:4. (μëεëίëνατε νικηταί: μείëνë[α]τëε Ox 1602, 30f is a misreading; difft. AcPl Ha 8, 22//BMM recto 28=HTR 31, 79 n. 2, ln. 10; s. CSchmidt mg. on AcPl Ha 8, 22 [μ]εëγëαëς ἐπëίκειται πιρασμός; Borger GGA 137). ἀσκανδάλιστος μείνῃ ἡ … ἐκκλησία AcPlCor 1:16. μ. μετά τινος remain in fellowship w. someone 1J 2:19. Of one who has divorced his wife remain by himself, remain unmarried Hm 4, 1, 6; 10; 4, 4, 2. οὐχὶ μένον σοὶ ἔμενεν; was it (the piece of ground) not yours, as long as it remained (unsold)? Ac 5:4 (cp. 1 Macc 15:7 and s. OHoltzmann, ZKG 14, 1893, 327-36).—W. adv. (Just., A I, 29, 3, D. 58, 3 βεβαίως) οὕτως μ. remain as one is (i.e., unmarried) 1 Cor 7:40. ἁγνῶς B 2:3. μ. ὡς ἐγώ remain as I am 1 Cor 7:8.

2. to continue to exist, remain, last, persist, continue to live, intr.

a. of pers. (Ps 9:8 ὁ κύριος εἰς τ. αἰῶνα μ.; 101:13; Da 6:27; Just., D. 128, 4 ἄγγελοι … ἀεὶ μένοντες) ὁ Χριστὸς μ. εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα Christ remains (here) forever J 12:34; cp. Hb 7:24; 1J 2:17. Of God AcPl Ha 2, 28; 9, 11. Pregnant remain (alive), be alive (Epict. 3, 24, 97; Diog. L. 7, 174; Achilles Tat. 8, 10. μένειν ἐν τῷ ζῆν Plut., Mor. 1042d; Eccl 7:15; Just., A I, 63, 17) J 21:22f; 1 Cor 15:6; Phil 1:25; Rv 17:10.

b. of things (Maximus Tyr. 4, 8b and Polyaenus 7, 34: γῆ μένει; Socrat., Ep. 31 [=33]; Hierocles 15, 454 ὁ πόνος παρῆλθεν, τὸ καλὸν μένει; Just., A I, 18, 2 αἴσθησις … μένει; Ath. 19, 2 μένει σύστασις) of a city ἔμεινεν ἂν μέχρι τῆς σήμερον it would have lasted until today Mt 11:23. μένουσα πόλις a permanent city Hb 13:14.—ἡ φιλαδελφία μενέτω continue 13:1 (JCambier, Salesianum 11, ’49, 62-96).—J 9:41; 15:16. εἰ τὸ ἔργον μενεῖ if the work survives 1 Cor 3:14. ὕπαρξις Hb 10:34. δικαιοσύνη 2 Cor 9:9 (Ps 111:9). ἡ κατ᾽ ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις τοῦ θεοῦ Ro 9:11 (of God’s counsel Ps 32:11). λόγος θεοῦ endure 1 Pt 1:23 (Just., D. 61, 2; cp. 1 Esdr 4:38 ἡ ἀλήθεια μένει). τ. ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τ. αἰῶνα vs. 25 (Is 40:8). ἡ βρῶσις ἡ μένουσα εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον J 6:27. τὴν δύναμιν σου τὴν μένουσαν Rv 11:7 v.l. ζώσης φωνῆς καὶ μενούσης Papias (2:4). τὸ μένον what is permanent (Philo, Leg. All. 3, 100.—Opp. τὸ καταργούμενον) 2 Cor 3:11. μένει πίστις, ἐλπὶς, ἀγάπη 1 Cor 13:13 (WMarxsen, D. ‘Bleiben’ im 1 Cor 13:13, OCullmann Festschr., ’72, 223-29; on the eschatology cp. En 97:6-10 and s. the lit. on ἀγάπη 1a.—For the contrast πίπτει [vs. 8]—μένει cp. Pla., Crat. 44, 440a εἰ μεταπίπτει πάντα χρήματα καὶ μηδὲν μένει). Opp. σαλευόμενα Hb 12:27.

3. wait for, await, trans.

a. of pers.: wait for someone who is arriving (Hom.; Thu. 4, 124, 4; X., An. 4, 4, 20; Pla., Leg. 8, 833c; Polyb. 4, 8, 4; Tob 2:2 BA; 2 Macc 7:30; TestJob 11:1; Jos., Ant. 13, 19) τινά w. the place indicated ἔμενον ἡμᾶς ἐν Τρῳάδι they were waiting for us in Troas Ac 20:5.

b. of things, such as dangers or misfortunes that await or threaten someone (trag.; Kaibel 654, 9 κἀμὲ μένει τὸ θανεῖν; SibOr 4, 114 v.l. σὲ) θλίψεις με μένουσιν Ac 20:23.—Of the 118 passages in which μένω occurs in the NT, 67 are found in the Johannine writings (40 in the gosp.; 24 in 1J; 3 in 2J).—JHeise, Bleiben: Menein in d. Johan. Schr., ’67; FHauck, TW IV 578-93: μένω and related words.—B. 836. DELG. M-M. TW.

Thanks for all the wasted space.

How about, instead, of just quoting what is specific to the discussion. Don't need all those extra words and such.

btw, John 15:1-7 is about bearing fruit, not getting or staying saved, as you seem to opine.

So when Jesus told His 11 saved disciples that IF they abide in Him, they would bear much fruit, He wasn't kidding.

But, what do YOU think Jesus meant by these verses?

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

The words "remain" in this passage is the same "meno" that you copied and pasted from.

So, explain what each verse means.

I say Jesus was teaching about how to bear much fruit.

What say you?

GDL · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
No He didn't. He simply described what His sheep (already saved and given eternal life) DO. In fact, He was making a "policy statement" about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.

And this is why your eisegesis is so damaging to the true Faith. Nowhere is the word, "ought" stated or implied here. It is simply a fact that those who believe Jesus is the Christ hear His voice & follow Him and not momentarily, but continuously.

Your "ought" verses are not applicable. But you should do a little homework on at least the Greek word, "dei." It's primary meaning is "necessity." Even your RIGHT pt called it a protocol verb and defined protocol in words like long established code of procedure, with emphasis on "code" - like the code we are to live by. It's not an option that provides for eisegetes like you to make up a way to Heaven.

FreeGrace2 said:
The problem is that you still don't get it. You and JLB still think hearing and following are conditions for BECOMING Jesus' sheep and receiving eternal life.

JLB can speak for JLB. I've dealt with you several times on how you make up things like this "becoming" nonsense. It's another one of your insertions where you assert what we mean when we never say such things. It's just another of your strawmen that others consistently accuse you of.

FreeGrace2 said:
Doesn't matter how you want to SPIN it, v.27 does NOT constitute a conditional clause.

Those who would make that claim only reveal their lack of knowledge about what a conditional clause even is.

If you had studied Greek, you'd know that one of the ways we test for our interpretations of certain grammatical structures is to turn the statements into a conditional clause to see if our interpretation makes sense. Of course certain statements can be stated conditionally as just another form of grammatical structure. Your lack of knowledge about English and Greek grammar is pronounced and your assertions of others' lack of knowledge say more about you than them.

FreeGrace2 said:
Since you STILL DON'T understand what a conditional clause is, you have no right or authority to tell anyone else about how "much you've supposedly learned and studied.

Seems you must have missed your RIGHT pt's instruction on chiasm. He spoke of it highly and as often as he came across it. I've seen you lose completely when I and others take you through some actual Greek interpretation. At times you just fade away & ignore it, because you can't contend with it or understand it. Your only weak retort is that a Christian like Daniel Wallace who wrote a Greek Grammar and worked on at least one translation team I'm aware of, and has an organization that's going around the globe scanning every Greek manuscript and every piece of them they can, is a _____________ (however you classified him to disqualify his expertise, which you can't begin to scratch the surface of). Whatever education I have in such things is obviously well beyond yours and I reference other's material to provide for you and others the ability to verify my work. You fade away & go back restating your very basic error and tell others to prove you wrong, when they have done so in spades. Frankly your arguments and tactics are a joke and IMO your misrepresentations of Scripture are the folly that requires answers.

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't care about the "some" that you seem to be referring to. I care about what the Bible SAYS. So, if I have misunderstood or misrepresented what Biblical Faith is, then please help me out and explain what I'm missing. Tell me what it really is, if it is something different than I believe it do be. Thanks.

You are one of the some. You have shown yourself repeatedly to care what you want the Bible to say, not what it says. Your request here has been answered by me and by others repeatedly. I've offered to assist you and said I've seen others who I'm fairly certain would join in, so we could collectively get to an explanation through some joint effort of multiple souls. You repeatedly assert your errors against any such efforts. For a few things, belief is continuous & one who believes hears & responds to Jesus' voice and follows Him and obeys Him and does not fall away from Him. Ever read some of us speak of such? Ever deny that some of the Scripture we've battled with you says such things? Who are you kidding that you're now open to some collaboration? Every sentence someone with a different view than yours writes to you is just another opportunity for you to say something against it and them. As I said some time ago, you're out of bait. It should now be clear to you that I'm open for now to deal with you in kind and it is my assertion that your folly re: Scripture needs to be answered.

FreeGrace2 said:
What a hodge podge word salad!! It is clear that you don't understand the Greek meaning of 'pistis' or 'pisteuo'. What you call "Biblical Faith" is of your own (or someone else's) opinion of what it should be.

Pisteuo and cognates are Greek words with historical examples of usage that we can some basics from. To understand how God uses the word in His Word, one needs to go through His Text and compile all the ways He uses it, what different descriptive words & concepts He applies to it, and then harmonize all we find in order understand the scope of it in His thinking. One thing I can tell you that we already know you don't like, is that Biblical Faith in Jesus Christ is continuous - it abides and remains, it isn't fleeting like you want it to be for whatever your mislead and misleading purposes.

Do you think the Greek agape truly expresses the love of Christ apart from more detail from Scripture? Are you that naive?

Do some real work in His Text. If you did, you'd argue closer to the point instead of being so far out at the boundaries.

FreeGrace2 said:
Thank you for your opinion.

Anytime. Until I decide to stop giving it.

FreeGrace2 said:
Well then, you and the "many" you've observed are agreeing with me. Here is the verse: Eph 2;8. And don't forget v.9.

I'm sure we have some agreement, or you'd have been rejected as a troll or something. No need to go into Eph2 at this point. I at this point only expect you to reveal some erroneous understanding there also, or to assert some additional nonsense against anyone who might want to discuss some of the specific detail there you might call "gnats."

FreeGrace2 said:
I find it quite arrogant to presume knowing what others grasp or not. And you sure don't have any clue about what I grasp.

The reason that you 2 are quite unsuccessful in showing me what Biblical Faith is, is that you have shown yourselves to be quite unsuccessful in reading simple and straightforward verses, such as John 10:27,28. You 2 are not even close to understanding what Jesus meant by what He said. You just claim to be.

To be considered arrogant by you is a badge of honor. I and I think others have more than a clue about what you grasp from as stated by you from your own keyboard. I and I'm sure others also have more than a clue to your senseless tactics like you use here in stating we just claim to know what Jesus meant by what He said in the verses you reference. I and at least 3 others have told you what these verses say and our read was virtually identical at the end of analysis. Again, your tactics are a joke.

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, there you go. When you add the "if", THEN you DO have a conditional clause.

So, please show me the "if" clause in v.27 or v.28.

But, you can't do that, can you. Because there is NO conditional clause in either verse.

Thanks for making my point.

I do appreciate that.

The joke just continues.

GDL · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Thanks for all the wasted space.

How about, instead, of just quoting what is specific to the discussion. Don't need all those extra words and such.

btw, John 15:1-7 is about bearing fruit, not getting or staying saved, as you seem to opine.

So when Jesus told His 11 saved disciples that IF they abide in Him, they would bear much fruit, He wasn't kidding.

But, what do YOU think Jesus meant by these verses?

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

The words "remain" in this passage is the same "meno" that you copied and pasted from.

So, explain what each verse means.

I say Jesus was teaching about how to bear much fruit.

What say you?

A quote of a Lexicon favored by many and here used to prove your assertion of the meaning of a Greek word wrong is wasted space. Not surprising. And not even an acknowledgement that what you stated about the translation of the word was wrong. Again, not surprising.

You'd be well-served to read some of those "extra words" and details from learned people about the meanings of words. You obviously have not done so to date.

John15 is about more than just bearing fruit. It has that little detail in it that you don't like other views of in regards to withering, being gathered, thrown into fire and burned. A consequence of not abiding/remaining/staying as commanded (so being disobedient which is also to not have faith). Go back and read that wasted space and tell us what meno means & doesn't mean again. I await another example of your discrediting the scholars with a single label.

Wasn't it you that said that meno doesn't mean remain, but abide, and it always means fellowship? So, now it means remain because you do see it in an English translation? Did that help you to see that BDAG wasn't wasted space?

Since you've got it imbedded in yourself that it simply means fellowship, what's the point of subjecting myself to more of your bad manners and childish tactics like telling others to prove what they've already proven through exegesis to counter your eisegesis? There, now tell us how I can't prove anything because I'm not answering your call. If I was to answer your call I'd probably ask you to go through at least all the uses of meno in 1John where John tightens up the concept for us with some specificity of what is involved in the use of this word by Jesus and his Apostle.

Answer your questions yourself. You're the one who needs some more understanding. Step out from your RIGHT pt and do some work in the Text. I've done and redone and will redo all such work on this and other words every time I want to check myself, or discuss it with someone who's truly interested.

I've got one core word I'll answer you with - obedience. I've got one direct correlation to obedience I'll also give you, that will also help you define Biblical Faith - faith (faith-obedience). I've got another direct correlation to both of these words that you can chew on, or not - love. There's more, but I've had enough of your nonsense for tonight.

That say I.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

I said:
"He simply described what His sheep (already saved and given eternal life) DO. In fact, He was making a "policy statement" about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO."

GDL said:
And this is why your eisegesis is so damaging to the true Faith.

Your bias is so far from reality, I wouldn't expect any other response. And, I proved my claim with a lot of Scripture that TELLS believers what they OUGHT TO DO.

Nowhere is the word, "ought" stated or implied here.

another one of your biased opinions, I see.

It is simply a fact that those who believe Jesus is the Christ hear His voice & follow Him and not momentarily, but continuously.

It is a simple fact that you have a lot of unsubstantiated opinions about verses.

Your "ought" verses are not applicable.

There you go. Your answer to avoiding facing facts. Slick.

JLB can speak for JLB.

I've noticed.

I said:
"The problem is that you still don't get it. You and JLB still think hearing and following are conditions for BECOMING Jesus' sheep and receiving eternal life."

I've dealt with you several times on how you make up things like this "becoming" nonsense.

Well, it's rather clear that you don't even recognize the issue here. Your posts clearly indicate that YOU think that hearing and following are HOW TO be saved. Or, how to become a sheep of Jesus. Don't you even read what you post? Maybe you should.

It's another one of your insertions where you assert what we mean when we never say such things. It's just another of your strawmen that others consistently accuse you of.

If you would read what you post, you would discover that YOU are guilty of forcing v.27 into HOW TO BECOME a sheep of Jesus. Unless you don't think that words mean things.

If you had studied Greek, you'd know that one of the ways we test for our interpretations of certain grammatical structures is to turn the statements into a conditional clause to see if our interpretation makes sense.

Your glaring error is to FORCE v.27 into a conditional clause, esp when it ISN'T ONE.

I've seen you lose completely when I and others take you through some actual Greek interpretation.

Really? When did that occur? Can you actually show any evidence? Other than just another claim?

I said:
"I don't care about the "some" that you seem to be referring to. I care about what the Bible SAYS. So, if I have misunderstood or misrepresented what Biblical Faith is, then please help me out and explain what I'm missing. Tell me what it really is, if it is something different than I believe it do be. Thanks."

You are one of the some.

Sure. So, prove it.

You have shown yourself repeatedly to care what you want the Bible to say, not what it says.

My claims about the Bible are EXACTLY what the Bible SAYS. What I don't care about is all your opinions.

Your request here has been answered by me and by others repeatedly.

What y'all have done is offer your opinions that TWIST the Scripture, not explain it.

I've offered to assist you and said I've seen others who I'm fairly certain would join in, so we could collectively get to an explanation through some joint effort of multiple souls.

After seeing what you opine on regarding specific verses, your "assistance" is hardly that.

You repeatedly assert your errors against any such efforts. For a few things, belief is continuous & one who believes hears & responds to Jesus' voice and follows Him and obeys Him and does not fall away from Him.

Here is a good example of your faulty assistance. First, there is NOTHING in the Bible about belief being continuous. Even Jesus noted that some "believe for a while", so please cease with your extremely erroneous opinions. We've already been over this, so there is nothing you can add to your many errors of opinion.

Second, I've never argued that those believers who are hearing and following Him will fall away. So what are you trying to point out here?

Every sentence someone with a different view than yours writes to you is just another opportunity for you to say something against it and them.

You are free to your own OPINIONS. However, when I see errors, it IS an opportunity to offer correction. But I find that there are some on this forum who aren't so amenable to corrrection.

As I said some time ago, you're out of bait.

Wow. Another opinion. You're just full of them, huh.

It should now be clear to you that I'm open for now to deal with you in kind and it is my assertion that your folly re: Scripture needs to be answered.

OK, so answer my questions.

I said:
"What a hodge podge word salad!! It is clear that you don't understand the Greek meaning of 'pistis' or 'pisteuo'. What you call "Biblical Faith" is of your own (or someone else's) opinion of what it should be."

Pisteuo and cognates are Greek words with historical examples of usage that we can some basics from. To understand how God uses the word in His Word, one needs to go through His Text and compile all the ways He uses it, what different descriptive words & concepts He applies to it, and then harmonize all we find in order understand the scope of it in His thinking.

Ah, just more word salad! Look. God used the Koine Greek to COMMUNICATE His thoughts to mankind. Hopefully, we can agree on that.

Now, God didn't take Greek words and RE-DEFINE them, as it seems you are insinuating.

One thing I can tell you that we already know you don't like, is that Biblical Faith in Jesus Christ is continuous - it abides and remains, it isn't fleeting like you want it to be for whatever your mislead and misleading purposes.

We're done here. We've already been through all this, and you haven't proven a thing. Just more of your opinions. Paul and Jesus used the aorist tense many times to indicate "belief for salvation", so you are now just wasting your time. You have no credibility with me with all your "continuous" stuff.

Do some real work in His Text. If you did, you'd argue closer to the point instead of being so far out at the boundaries.

More opinions.

I said:
"Well then, you and the "many" you've observed are agreeing with me. Here is the verse: Eph 2;8."

I'm sure we have some agreement, or you'd have been rejected as a troll or something. No need to go into Eph2 at this point.

Why not? Because it removes all the works that you think are conditions for salvation?

I at this point only expect you to reveal some erroneous understanding there also

Not at all biased, I see. lol

or to assert some additional nonsense against anyone who might want to discuss some of the specific detail there you might call "gnats."

Yep, just a lot of biased opinions.

To be considered arrogant by you is a badge of honor.

You are just very confused.

I said:
"Well, there you go. When you add the "if", THEN you DO have a conditional clause.

So, please show me the "if" clause in v.27 or v.28.

But, you can't do that, can you. Because there is NO conditional clause in either verse.

Thanks for making my point.

I do appreciate that."

The joke just continues.

Well, you certainly have no shame in just dodging my challenge.

You turned v.27 into a conditional clause even though there was NO "if" clause.

I challenged you to show me any words that form a conditional clause and you can't do it.

There.you.go.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 11, 2020

GDL said:
A quote of a Lexicon favored by many and here used to prove your assertion of the meaning of a Greek word wrong is wasted space.

You proved nothing, other than the capacity to cope and paste. Well done.

John15 is about more than just bearing fruit.

You have a real knack for missing the point. I NEVER said it was ONLY about bearing fruit. I was specific, and you treat my response as being a general comment about an entire chapter. You have a real knack for cheap shots too.

It has that little detail in it that you don't like other views of in regards to withering, being gathered, thrown into fire and burned.

How do you know what I doh't like? Are you still thinking that you can read minds?

A consequence of not abiding/remaining/staying as commanded (so being disobedient which is also to not have faith).

Could you finish your sentence, please. What is the consequence of not abiding? You didn't finish your thought.

Go back and read that wasted space and tell us what meno means & doesn't mean again. I await another example of your discrediting the scholars with a single label.

I actually quoted a number of verses that showed that 'meno' was used to tell believers what they OUGHT TO DO. So my conclusion was totally biblical.

Wasn't it you that said that meno doesn't mean remain, but abide, and it always means fellowship?

Where did I say "always"? You have an imaginative opinion, for sure.

It DOES refer to fellowship in John 15, even if you have a different opinion.

So, now it means remain because you do see it in an English translation? Did that help you to see that BDAG wasn't wasted space?

OK, I'll type real slowly. Abide means remain. Remain in fellowship. As opposed to NOT remaining in fellowship, and being discarded from service.

Since you've got it imbedded in yourself that it simply means fellowship, what's the point of subjecting myself to more of your bad manners and childish tactics like telling others to prove what they've already proven through exegesis to counter your eisegesis?

To be clear, you are the failed eisegesist. Your "interpretations" aren't even close to the plain meaning of the words in the verses we've been discussing.

I've got one core word I'll answer you with - obedience. I've got one direct correlation to obedience I'll also give you, that will also help you define Biblical Faith - faith (faith-obedience). I've got another direct correlation to both of these words that you can chew on, or not - love. There's more, but I've had enough of your nonsense for tonight.

OK, your answer to my non-question is "obedience". I never asked a question about obedience. But I know from reading a lot of Lordship salvation type theological articles that they see saving faith as an act of obedience. Well, knock yourself out with that.

The Greek word 'pisteuo' means to trust. Although the newest edition of Arndt & Gringrich (2000) added obedience to the definition. Slick. It never meant that until Danker opined differently.

TibiasDad · Sep 11, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
However, there are a multitude of verses that say that eternal life is obtained on the basis of belief in Christ for salvation.

No He didn't. He simply described what His sheep (already saved and given eternal life) DO. In fact, He was making a "policy statement" about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.

Kinda like:

1 Cor 8:2 - Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
Eph 5:28 - In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
2 Thess 3:7 - For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you
1 Tim 3:15 - if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
2 Pet 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

And YOU ought to think on these things. The Bible is full of what believers OUGHT TO DO. And that is what Jesus was communicating in John 10:27.

Exactly!! It's what believers OUGHT TO DO.

The problem is that you still don't get it. You and JLB still think hearing and following are conditions for BECOMING Jesus' sheep and receiving eternal life.

Yet, I gave a long list of verses in post #468 that say SPECIFICALLY that eternal life is given on the basis of belief in Christ.

The neat thing about grammar and language is we can use logic & different structures to say the same things:
If Jesus sheep hear His voice & follow Him, then those sheep who do not hear His voice & follow Him are not His sheep.

Let's see...There's this...

John 10:25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

And then there's this...

1 Cor 8:2 - Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
Eph 5:28 - In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
2 Thess 3:7 - For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you
1 Tim 3:15 - if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
2 Pet 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

And YOU ought to think on these things. The Bible is full of what believers OUGHT TO DO. And that is what Jesus was communicating in John 10:27.

I think we have to go back to Sesame Street and say one of these things is different from the others! What could it be...? Oh, I know what it is, John 10:25-30 doesn't have the word ought in it! I wonder why? Could it be because "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me", is a present active indicative statement of what Jesus's sheep are like not what they should be like! Jesus does not use the word ὀφείλω, nor does he use the word δεῖ, so there is absolutely no exegetical reason to place an ought into the meaning. Jesus did not say my sheep ought to hear my voice and follow me, he said they do hear his voice and follow him, which is the differential between a believer and an unbeliever!

I guess I'll have to ignore you again, because there is nothing new in your argumentation, just more hubris, eisegesis, head-in-the-sand thinking. I fear for you and anyone you may be teaching!

Doug

GDL · Sep 12, 2020

Highlighting in these quote verses is mine.

FreeGrace2 said:
However, there are a multitude of verses that say that eternal life is obtained on the basis of belief in Christ for salvation.

GDL said:
Yes, and in John10:27 John shows how Jesus elaborated on what Biblical Faith in Him looks like. Those that Believe in Him hear His voice & follow Him.

FreeGrace2 said:
No He didn't. He simply described what His sheep (already saved and given eternal life) DO. In fact, He was making a "policy statement" about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.

GDL said:
And this is why your eisegesis is so damaging to the true Faith. Nowhere is the word, "ought" stated or implied here. It is simply a fact that those who believe Jesus is the Christ hear His voice & follow Him and not momentarily, but continuously.

FG2 version of the GDL quote just above: "And this is why your eisegesis is so damaging to the true Faith."
FG2: Your bias is so far from reality, I wouldn't expect any other response. And, I proved my claim with a lot of Scripture that TELLS believers what they OUGHT TO DO.

GDL: Nowhere is the word, "ought" stated or implied here.
FG2: another one of your biased opinions, I see.

GDL: It is simply a fact that those who believe Jesus is the Christ hear His voice & follow Him and not momentarily, but continuously.
FG2: It is a simple fact that you have a lot of unsubstantiated opinions about verses.

GDL: Your "ought" verses are not applicable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your reasoning is a confused mess. Truly, there are some willing to help you. As politely as I can state this, your showing me that the word "ought" is used in some verses other than John10:27, does not mean it can just be imported into John10:27.

So, let's just simplify and cut through some of your serial argumentative personality. Let's hit this matter of "ought" in one big take:

First, please explain what the English word "ought" means to you.

Second, do you think the English word "ought" is the best way to translate the Greek word "dei"?

Third, please show me where the word, "ought" is in John10:27. Please feel free to use any English translation you chose. If it is not there, please reveal to me where you think it is appropriate to insert it - give me the FG2 translation if you think the KJV, NKJ, NIV, NET, NASB, etc., are incorrect.

Hope that's simple enough. Can you abide/remain/stay on point or will you once again use this as another opportunity to divert and distract?

GDL · Sep 12, 2020

TibiasDad said:
I think we have to go back to Sesame Street and say one of these things is different from the others! What could it be...? Oh, I know what it is, John 10:25-30 doesn't have the word ought in it! I wonder why? Could it be because "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me", is a present active indicative statement of what Jesus's sheep are like not what they should be like! Jesus does not use the word ὀφείλω, nor does he use the word δεῖ, so there is absolutely no exegetical reason to place an ought into the meaning. Jesus did not say my sheep ought to hear my voice and follow me, he said they do hear his voice and follow him, which is the differential between a believer and an unbeliever!

I guess I'll have to ignore you again, because there is nothing new in your argumentation, just more hubris, eisegesis, head-in-the-sand thinking. I fear for you and anyone you may be teaching!

Doug

Just keeping track of what's being said to FG2 re: inserting "ought" into John10:27.

Thanks, Doug, for adding ὀφείλω into the discussion. I thought I'd jest keep it simple with δεῖ for now. But there you have it FG2 - δεῖ or ὀφείλω.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 12, 2020

For some unknown reason, this poster includes what I posted as if he posted it. What follows is what I posted:

TibiasDad said:
Doesn't matter how you want to SPIN it, v.27 does NOT constitute a conditional clause.

Those who would make that claim only reveal their lack of knowledge about what a conditional clause even is.

Since you STILL DON'T understand what a conditional clause is, you have no right or authority to tell anyone else about how "much you've supposedly learned and studied.

I'm not saying anything about anyone else. This is just about YOU and JLB. And your failure to recognize what a conditional clause is and isn't.

And v.27 ISN'T a conditional clause.

Then prove your claim. I claim your claim is empty.

So, just who would "some" be over the "years"? Can you even name one?

Neither YOU nor JLB have shown any kind of competency in understanding v.27, since there are NO WORDS that make up a conditional clause. All you 2 do is spin the verses to fit your own theological grid. And that is what eisegesis is.

I don't care about the "some" that you seem to be referring to. I care about what the Bible SAYS. So, if I have misunderstood or misrepresented what Biblical Faith is, then please help me out and explain what I'm missing. Tell me what it really is, if it is something different than I believe it do be. Thanks.

Yeah, right. I'm "carving up" John 10. How absurd. Just explain to me what Biblical Faith really is, if you can.

What a hodge podge word salad!! It is clear that you don't understand the Greek meaning of 'pistis' or 'pisteuo'. What you call "Biblical Faith" is of your own (or someone else's) opinion of what it should be.

I know that you can't find ANY verse that used YOUR explanation for what Biblical Faith is.

But I can show you many verses that tell YOU exactly how to have salvation. It's called "saving faith". Ever heard of it?

Thank you for your opinion.

Well then, you and the "many" you've observed are agreeing with me. Here is the verse: Eph 2;8. And don't forget v.9.

I find it quite arrogant to presume knowing what others grasp or not. And you sure don't have any clue about what I grasp.

The reason that you 2 are quite unsuccessful in showing me what Biblical Faith is, is that you have shown yourselves to be quite unsuccessful in reading simple and straightforward verses, such as John 10:27,28. You 2 are not even close to understanding what Jesus meant by what He said. You just claim to be.

Well, there you go. When you add the "if", THEN you DO have a conditional clause.

So, please show me the "if" clause in v.27 or v.28.

But, you can't do that, can you. Because there is NO conditional clause in either verse.

Thanks for making my point.

I do appreciate that.

All the above was what I posted, proving that John 10:27 is NOT a conditional clause.

Now, what follows is what Doug posted:

Let's see...There's this...

John 10:25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

[
OK, yes, there is this. But what is your point, Doug? There STILL isn't any conditional clause that you and GDL keep imagining.

And then there's this...

1 Cor 8:2 - Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
Eph 5:28 - In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
2 Thess 3:7 - For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you
1 Tim 3:15 - if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
James 4:17 - If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
2 Pet 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

And YOU ought to think on these things. The Bible is full of what believers OUGHT TO DO. And that is what Jesus was communicating in John 10:27.

And the above is what I posted. I guess Doug hasn't figured out how to properly format his posts.

I think we have to go back to Sesame Street and say one of these things is different from the others! What could it be...? Oh, I know what it is, John 10:25-30 doesn't have the word ought in it! I wonder why?

And, it appears that Doug totally missed my point about v.27, that Jesus was stating a policy statement. Maybe Doug doesn't know what those are. Probably.

A policy statement is a statement about HOW those in the organization are supposed to behave, or OUGHT TO behave.

But, go ahead and ignore all the verses that tell believers what they OUGHT TO do.

Could it be because "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me", is a present active indicative statement of what Jesus's sheep are like not what they should be like!

Doug is still confused about what a present active verb means.

Jesus does not use the word ὀφείλω, nor does he use the word δεῖ, so there is absolutely no exegetical reason to place an ought into the meaning.

It's implied in a policy statement.

Jesus did not say my sheep ought to hear my voice and follow me, he said they do hear his voice and follow him, which is the differential between a believer and an unbeliever!

Regardless of whether v.27 is a policy statement or just a description of what His sheep DO, what is STILL IS NOT is a conditional clause that you have just made up.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That is eternal security.

I guess I'll have to ignore you again, because there is nothing new in your argumentation, just more hubris, eisegesis, head-in-the-sand thinking. I fear for you and anyone you may be teaching!

Typical of Arminians. They can't refute the truth, or defend their errors, so they disengage.

:wave:

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