Roman Catholicism

ArmyMatt said:

well, we have different theology. so either one or both of us is heretical, but we both cannot be true.

Click to expand...

**Uniate has entered the conversation**

Justin-H.S. said:

**Uniate has entered the conversation**

Click to expand...

they have different theology as well.

ArmyMatt said:

they have different theology as well.

Click to expand...

The technical name for that is "incoherent."

Light of the East said:

Unfortunately, either CF has done something weird to the search engine or my computer is acting up. I wanted to do a search to get a sense of the feeling folks here have for Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics.

Look, if I do convert, I don't want A.)to have a boatload of animus against that particular body. (This is a struggle for me). and B.) to have some sort of attitude against Catholic folks in general.

One of the struggles I do have is that whenever I hear people engaging in Roman Catholic spiritual practices such as the Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet, or other prayers, I get a real negative feeling about them. I have trouble thinking anything kind about all the various "visions" that are floating around right now, especially those predicting the end of the world next month.

What is the feeling and the sense of various members here about the RC church and the people who are in it? And what do you suggest for me that my heart be right in this matter other than of course praying about it.

Click to expand...

The tendency is to fall into a sort of "Anger phase" towards whatever worldview you had before because you are in a period of grief. What to Know About the Five Stages of Grief

Reaching the acceptance stage is the goal, but there are many who stop at the anger stage and they are perpetually angry at whatever they came from whether it be RCC, Protestantism, or Atheism.

Light of the East said:

Which is what is causing me all the theological problems I am having. Honestly, I wish that when I left Protestantism 20 years ago someone would have had the decency to explain to me what is involved in being "in communion" and how it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." Think of it. I could have been Orthodox for 20 years now (and probably a lot more mentally stable) but noooooooooo......no one bothered doing a good and honest catechesis with me. It wasn't until I went to seminary and began a class on the differences between East and West that that lightbulb went off in my dim and stupid mind.

Anyway, it's 9:07 AM and I am about to leave for the ROCOR (I think that's what it is) parish in Manassas to visit the Divine Liturgy.

Your prayers for me are appreciated. There are several areas in my life that have become a real minefield for me and I keep stepping on the mines.

Click to expand...

right, by being in communion with a group, you are affirming their theology.

Light of the East said:

Which is what is causing me all the theological problems I am having. Honestly, I wish that when I left Protestantism 20 years ago someone would have had the decency to explain to me what is involved in being "in communion" and how it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome." Think of it. I could have been Orthodox for 20 years now (and probably a lot more mentally stable) but noooooooooo......no one bothered doing a good and honest catechesis with me. It wasn't until I went to seminary and began a class on the differences between East and West that that lightbulb went off in my dim and stupid mind.

Anyway, it's 9:07 AM and I am about to leave for the ROCOR (I think that's what it is) parish in Manassas to visit the Divine Liturgy.

Your prayers for me are appreciated. There are several areas in my life that have become a real minefield for me and I keep stepping on the mines.

Click to expand...

Well catechesis could and probably should improve, but you seem to invested in projecting your own issues upon others. First and foremost, conversion is an individual spiritual journey that has to be led by the Inquirer himself. You cannot expect others to make this journey for you. Its between God and you. Catechists may help you and sort of the terrain, but in the end its all down to the individual himself.

Im sorry to say so, but for the greater part of the church its like Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't exist, and if someone are aware its much more common to consider them both quite similar to us (which is wrong I suppose), aswell as of less importance. The vast majority of Inquirers come from a protestant backround (as did you if i remember it correctly?) Which makes an emphasis on the differences between the two a more pressing matter than the RCC/EO distinction.

I would only consider spending time on this distinction if it was properly addressed by the seeker, or if he or she came from that tradition. Time is often limited and one get mixed up in different matters.

Why do you chose to be so filled with contempt? Isnt it better to see Catholicism as a stage on your journey towards Orthodoxy? I mean, it comes of as if you're just blaming everyone else for everything. I've witnessed your spiritual disharmony and anger for years in here. What do you gain from all of this? To me it seems as if you're so lost in theological disputes that you miss the second part of the love commandment.
How do you fulfill your godgiven duty to love thy neighbors now adays? I mean, the answer seens obvious. You despise pious catholics for their investment in God and our Lady. It seems quite far from loving thy neighbors to me.

Another question that arises is just for how long? How long are you going to waste your life in service of the Lord by this unfruitful endeavour? If I where you I'd settle this once and for all instead of all this going back and fourth. You should endorse Orthodoxy if thats the end result of your intellectual and spiritual journey. Just do it already!

Beware though, orthodoxy is made up of humans aswell. Humans that are ready to make you angry and question your decision to become one of them in the first place. No congregation nor any church is left unstained by wordly affairs and sin.

Light of the East said:

QUOTE="Stabat Well, catechesis could and probably should improve, but you seem to invested in projecting your own issues upon others. First and foremost, conversion is an individual spiritual journey that has to be led by the Inquirer himself. You cannot expect others to make this journey for you. Its between God and you. Catechists may help you and sort of the terrain, but in the end its all down to the individual himself.

Patent nonsese, sir. If it is all up to the individual himself, then why even have catechesis? Let everyone figure it out for themselves. Don't tell anyone anything about anything. Just tell them there is a God and Jesus died for their sins and let them develop their own theology. I am stunned that you would say this, seeing as how the severe lack of good catechesis, according to Dr. Scott Hahn, has caused massive problems in the Roman Catholic Church over the last two hundred years. Do you deny that?

I'm sorry to say so, but for the greater part of the church its like Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't exist, and if someone are aware its much more common to consider them both quite similar to us (which is wrong I suppose), as well as of less importance. The vast majority of Inquirers come from a Protestant backround (as did you if i remember it correctly?) Which makes an emphasis on the differences between the two a more pressing matter than the RCC/EO distinction.

I would only consider spending time on this distinction if it was properly addressed by the seeker, or if he or she came from that tradition. Time is often limited and one get mixed up in different matters.

Why do you chose to be so filled with contempt? Isnt it better to see Catholicism as a stage on your journey towards Orthodoxy? I mean, it comes of as if you're just blaming everyone else for everything. I've witnessed your spiritual disharmony and anger for years in here.

I have anger issues. I admit to this. Upon the urging of my spiritual director, who has been working with me on these issues, I am now going to a counselor who is, incidentally, a very devout Roman Catholic with a long string of PhD's behind her name. Perhaps with her I shall find the release I need to find from these anger issues. I have gone to Confession many times and confessed angry outburst. I don't deny what you say nor will I attempt to justify it. You would have to have walked a few miles in the shoes I have walked in to understand the severity of the issues I have and how I wrestle with them constantly.

What do you gain from all of this? To me it seems as if you're so lost in theological disputes that you miss the second part of the love commandment.

You want to know why? Because for all my Christian life, after my conversion, I have listened to one theological statement after another from different quarters describing God as ready to cast into hell anyone who doesn't have every single theological "I" dotted correctly and every single "T" crossed the right way. It began with what we here in the states call "Bob Jones Fundamentalism." Maybe you have heard of it. They happily condemn to hell all Catholics, with a side order of Orthodox and Protestants who are not of them. It went pretty much downhill for me from there. I learned a lot of contempt and anger from them. Contempt of others is a sick way of making yourself feel real good about yourself and assuring yourself that God loves you, not because God is love, but because you are right in all your theology.

So what happens is that love is downplayed in such Fundamentalist religions and being "correct" is all-important. God is angry with you every day if you deviate even a bit from having the true truth. I exaggerate not. Perhaps some X-Fundamentalist who is hanging around here might validate what I am saying to you.

Such preaching and teaching makes for very sick and dysfunctional "Christians." It has taken me decades of study and talking with people to extract myself from this, yet as you note (and you are very perceptive about my problems) the stains remain. This sick garbage gets into the soul and poisons everything. I have the blessing of having a very loving and gentle spiritual director, and hopefully through his patience and love, I can get myself healthy spiritually, but it is going to take a while.


How do you fulfill your godgiven duty to love thy neighbors nowadays? I mean, the answer seens obvious. You despise pious Catholics for their investment in God and our Lady. It seems quite far from loving thy neighbors to me.

I don't desire to despize anyone, and if you look at the OP, that is exactly the question I am asking of people here - how do I become Orthodox without becoming one of those rigorous Orthodtraddies who heaps scorn on others and thinks that everyone except the Orthodox is going to hell. I accept what you say. It is exactly what I don't wish to do.

Another question that arises is just for how long? How long are you going to waste your life in service of the Lord by this unfruitful endeavour? If I where you I'd settle this once and for all instead of all this going back and fourth. You should endorse Orthodoxy if thats the end result of your intellectual and spiritual journey. Just do it already!

Beware though, orthodoxy is made up of humans aswell. Humans that are ready to make you angry and question your decision to become one of them in the first place. No congregation nor any church is left unstained by wordly affairs and sin.

If you have had the blessing of being raised in A.) a loving and deeply devout family of origin and B.) a good, healthy spirituality of the Christian faith which exemplified love, then you should fall on your knees and thank God with all your heart. Some of us didn't get either, and it shows. Our lives are a struggle to unscrew up the mess that we inherited.

Your prayers will be appreciated. I need them

Click to expand...

You're absloutely right, i haven't walked a mile in your shoes. I humbly apologize if i came of as a "know it all" in my former post. Thanks for reminding me of my duty to praise God for my upbringing and my nominal lutheran background. It kept my heart relatively pure (though I've done my best to darken it at times...), and allowed me to make my inquiry into Catholicism from a mainline protestant state of mind. I have loving parents too. I had all of this, thus it makes it all to easy to presuppose that others did too.

When it comes to inquiry, I tend to favor an individual intellectualism in ones pursuit of knowledge. I admit that some people may be prohibited from this thorough exercise due to a number of various reasons some of which is closely linked to ones upbringing, mental capacity etc. I dont mean to imply that you're left unable to do any of this, but its a nuance that I left out of my post altogether.

Rest assured I will pray for you dear brother. I just felt sorrowful as I read that you're still in this emotional rollercoaster. Lord have mercy!

@Light of the EastPeace... praying for ya man.

@Light of the East , I don’t know if this will help you. But here goes.

My husband is theologically essentially Baptist. He is one of the most deeply anti-Catholic men I have ever met. It is hard. But seeing him as a fellow Christian first and foremost helps.

I don’t see him as a Baptist. Or as a Protestant. I see him as a Christian. And I love him. When I see the good in him, the love of Christ, the prayerfulness, the trust in Scripture, I get that. And I respect that. And he is more forgiving, generous, charitable, and meek than me. By far. He can’t list the virtues, but he embodies them well. He’s light years ahead of me spiritually in a lot of places. Most places. Every place? Probably.

So, maybe see Catholics as fellow Christians first and foremost. Who love Jesus and love Mary, and are doing the best they can, to follow Christ and carry their Cross, and love others.

We need to stand firm in our faith and, I believe, we have clear examples of other Christians who the Lord looks after:

rachel joy scott - Google Search

Mother Teresa - Wikipedia Has

Schismatic hence the term Catholischism

heretical

great pancake breakfasts

great at bingo

the current pope is the worst in history. I’d take some crooked Borgia phony pope or Honorius or antipopes over this lefty pope

so much pedophilia with RCC that my head spins

love the Ave Maria hymn

great in Daredevil comics

Too legalistic

That moment when you realize the Orthodox Western Rite does the western liturgies better than the RCC.

.

Gracia Singh said:

@Light of the East , I don’t know if this will help you. But here goes.

My husband is theologically essentially Baptist. He is one of the most deeply anti-Catholic men I have ever met. It is hard. But seeing him as a fellow Christian first and foremost helps.

I don’t see him as a Baptist. Or as a Protestant. I see him as a Christian. And I love him. When I see the good in him, the love of Christ, the prayerfulness, the trust in Scripture, I get that. And I respect that. And he is more forgiving, generous, charitable, and meek than me. By far. He can’t list the virtues, but he embodies them well. He’s light years ahead of me spiritually in a lot of places. Most places. Every place? Probably.

So, maybe see Catholics as fellow Christians first and foremost. Who love Jesus and love Mary, and are doing the best they can, to follow Christ and carry their Cross, and love others.

Click to expand...

Your post reminded me of this, which I have found helpful (and I hope you do not find it denigrating to Roman Catholicism - obviously we have disagreements, but I mean no disrespect. Forgive me if you find otherwise)...

Other Christians - The Morning Offering | Ancient Faith Ministries

“What about non-Orthodox Christians?

Saint Silouan the Athonite was once traveling by train with an archimandrite who was a zealot and who was quick to correct others about the True Faith. Coming upon a group of traveling Roman Catholics, St. Silouan’s traveling companion proceeded to tell them that they must become Orthodox because their faith was without grace.

The saint asked him if it were indeed a fact that the Roman Catholics believed that Christ was true God, and that he was present in the Eucharist. The saint asked was it not true that these Catholics believed in the Trinity, and venerated the Holy Virgin and the relics of saints? The archimandrite answered yes to all the questions. St. Silouan responded that of all humanity’s faiths, we must know that we have perhaps more, but not to judge those who are not Orthodox. We must rejoice in the knowledge of what they do have. The saint told him that we should not be filled with such pride as to think we have the right to judge, correct, or teach others.

This does not mean that we see the Church as divided, or that the Orthodox Church is anything less than the Church Christ founded. What it does mean is that we do not allow ourselves to think that we have the right to correct or teach anyone. We must honor other people’s beliefs and not give in to the prideful stand that we have the right to teach or correct them. The truth that is found within Orthodoxy must be shared by living our faith in love, not in judging or correcting others. Truth, wherever it is found, is Orthodox Truth. If other religions embrace some of these truths that are Orthodox, we must rejoice and give thanks for what they do have.

People who love God and are trying to live holy lives pleasing to him, according to the knowledge they have been given, are to be respected. They may not have the fullness of Apostolic Truth, but if they are believers in God and are trying to live a life pleasing to God, we must give thanks to Christ for what they do have. They have God as their Father, just as do we. They can have the Church as their Mother only if they see in us the difference that Orthodoxy has made in our lives. Being arrogant in our evangelism does nothing to express the truth of Orthodoxy and makes us nothing more than a pushy salesman at the door.

That arrogant archimandrite would better have shared the beauty of Orthodoxy had he embraced those Roman Catholics as fellow disciples of Christ. Then they would have seen Christ in him and known that Orthodoxy was a faith centered in love.”