Covenant and New Covenant theology

Guojing said:

That is your interpretation, but I am not into replacement theology.

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But actually....what we're advocating for is the biblical interpretation of expansion theology, because we're including the faithful remnant ....when the competing theology overlooks their critical role in the ministry of Jesus.

mkgal1 said:

But actually....what we're advocating for is the biblical interpretation of expansion theology, because we're including the faithful remnant ....when the competing theology overlooks their critical role in the ministry of Jesus.

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If you don't separate the Body of Christ, from Israel in the Bible, that is replacement theology to me.

You are free to call it another name if you prefer.

Guojing said:

If you don't separate the Body of Christ, from Israel in the Bible, that is replacement theology to me.

You are free to call it another name if you prefer.

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The choice:

1. Replacement biology, aka dispensational racialism, which separates them.
2. Scripture, which unites them. (John 10:16;Romans 10:12;Galatians 3:28;
Colossians 3:11;Ephesians 2:14-16).

Easy decision.

jgr said:

The choice:

1. Replacement biology, aka dispensational racialism, which separates them.
2. Scripture, which unites them. (John 10:16;Romans 10:12;Galatians 3:28;
Colossians 3:11;Ephesians 2:14-16).

Easy decision.

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All those verses, with the exception of John, refers to the Body of Christ, where yes, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

So yes, I agree with you Paul specifically told us that all who believe 1 Cor 15:1-4 are united in the body of Christ.

But for you, you took the extra step, to regard the Body of Christ as the new Israel. Paul never told us that the Body of Christ is now the new Israel.

Guojing said:

If you don't separate the Body of Christ, from Israel in the Bible, that is replacement theology to me.

You are free to call it another name if you prefer.

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Why would I separate groups that Jesus had brought together? Keep in mind who people like Peter, John, and Paul were:

No one is being replaced in that theology (unless you're referring to a modern-day geopolitical secular entity being left out?).

mkgal1 said:

Why would I separate groups that Jesus had brought together? Keep in mind who people like Peter, John, and Paul were:

Ephesians 2:14-15 ~ For Christ Himself is our peace. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in His own body on the cross, He broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.

Ephesians 3:6 ~ This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
​

No one is being replaced in that theology (unless you're referring to a modern-day geopolitical secular entity being left out?).

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As I stated to another, all these are talking about the Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles who believe 1 cor 15:1-4 are equal.

But there is still the nation Israel that God had not forgotten, and God will fulfill his promise made to their father Abraham in the future, as Paul explained in Romans 11.

Jesus also promised Peter, John and the 12, not Paul, that they will be sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, which the Body of Christ is not among the 12 tribes.

Guojing said:

But for you, you took the extra step, to regard the Body of Christ as the new Israel.

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Please provide a direct quote in which I "regard the Body of Christ as the new Israel".

Guojing said:

But for you, you took the extra step, to regard the Body of Christ as the new Israel. Paul never told us that the Body of Christ is now the new Israel.

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The phrases....."The Body of Christ"...."New Jerusalem"....and a new "Israel" in the New Covenant all refer to God's dwelling place on earth. That's what was being "built" during Jesus's ministry and the disciples continued in that ministry. Those phrases refer to the temple not made with human hands (with Jesus as the "chief cornerstone")....and the fulfillment of God's plan to have a kingdom of priests on earth to reign with Him:


A fulfillment of this promise:

Spoken to Israel:


That seems to be the only nation God is concerned with.

The old covenant Israel doesn't qualify as a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation " because only one specific line was set apart as priests. The promise was that all of God’s holy nation would serve as priests...and that was fulfilled in the New Covenant Israel of God.

Guojing said:

But there is still the nation Israel that God had not forgotten, and God will fulfill his promise made to their father Abraham in the future, as Paul explained in Romans 11.

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And you identify this "nation Israel " today...how? I believe that question was asked way back in the early pages of this thread (but was never answered).

Since we read Romans 11 differently, would you please inform me of a promise to Abraham that God has left unfulfilled (in your belief)?

Guojing said:

But there is still the nation Israel that God had not forgotten, and God will fulfill his promise made to their father Abraham in the future, as Paul explained in Romans 11.

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The Jewish State of Israel is the fake Israel, a Satanic construct of a mixed racial group, who established the current nation on communistic principals.
They are the final opportunity for the House of Judah to get right with God, after having nearly 2000 years to do so.
That they will never accept Jesus as their Messiah and will be punished for it, is well prophesied:
DESTRUCTION IS DECREED Deut. 32:34-43, Jeremiah 8 & 9, Matthew 21:43, Zephaniah 1:1-18

Isaiah 3:1-9 The Lord is about to strip Judah of every prop and support, all of their leaders, generals and counsellors will lose their positions. I shall appoint inexperienced people to positions of authority. Oppression and arrogance will stalk the Land and there will be severe shortages of food and water.
Judah is brought low, for in word and deed, they defy the Lord. The look on their faces testifies against them. Like Sodom, they parade their sins.
Woe betide them, they have earned the disaster that will strike them.

Isaiah 3:10-11 Happy are the righteous. All goes well with them. Woe to the wicked, disaster is upon them. My people, those who guide you are leading you astray.

Isaiah 3:13-26 The Lord stands up to judge His people. He opens the indictment against the elders and leaders; it is you who have ruined My vineyard. You have crushed My people and oppressed the poor.
You women of Zion; I will take away your finery, instead of coifed hair, you will be bald.
Your men will fall by the sword of the Lord, as in battle. Judah’s defenses are stripped bare, laid flat to the ground.
[Isaiah 22:2-14…your slain did not fall by the sword, as in battle….and the mainstays of Judah’s defenses are removed.]

Isaiah 4:1-2 On that Day, seven women will ask one man for help and support.
On that Day, the sprouts that the Lord has grown will become glorious in their beauty and the Land will be fruitful, the pride of the survivors in the Land. Amos 9:13-15
[in other trans. “sprouts or plant’ is rendered ‘Branch’ and assumed to refer to Jesus, but that is wrong and the “sprouts’’, nurtured by the Lord are His faithful Christian people, as is clear from the context.]

Isaiah 4:3-6 Those who remain in Jerusalem, whose survival was decreed, will be called holy. Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 29:1-8, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

When the Lord washes away the filth of Jerusalem by a spirit of judgement burning like fire, He will create a cloud by day and a flame by night over Mt Zion, to be a covering for shade and shelter. [In the same way as for ancient Israel. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4]

Isaiah 10:17-23 The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One, a flame: that in a single day will burn up and consume His enemies. Malachi 4:1&3, 2 Peter 3:7
The forests and pastures will be destroyed, only a few trees will remain. Joel 1:19-20

On that Day, the remnant of Israel, the survivors of Jacob [all 12 tribes] will set their allegiance solely on the Lord.
A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob, will return to God, their strength.
Israel, though you are as the sands of the sea – only a remnant will return. The Lord will carry out the destruction decreed upon all of the Holy Land.
Reference, REB, NIV, KJV, some verses condensed.


Judah will be judged and the entire Middle East region will be virtually depopulated by a terrible fire from the heavens and only a holy remnant will be saved. I am convinced that this Bible passage tells of events soon to happen, the coming Day of judgement onto all the world and His people; a remnant of Jacob [from all 12 tribes, plus those grafted in by reason of righteousness] going to live in all of the Promised Land, before the Return of Jesus. Ezekiel 34, Ezekiel 40 to 48, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107

Guojing said:

But there is still the nation Israel that God had not forgotten, and God will fulfill his promise made to their father Abraham in the future, as Paul explained in Romans 11.

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That's not how I read Romans 11.

If a person is sincere about truly seeking the message of God....the entire chapter of Romans 11 ought to be read in context.

Paul actually begins this section (not that it was originally sectioned off....but anyway)by clearing up the idea that promises were left unfulfilled or that God had rejected His people (confusion from what was written in Romans 10).



Do you see the correlation between Paul and what he's bringing up about Elijah? Who does it identify as "His people He foreknew"? It's the faithful remnant of which Paul is included.

mkgal1 said:

That's not how I read Romans 11.

If a person is sincere about truly seeking the message of God....the entire chapter of Romans 11 ought to be read in context.

Paul actually begins this section (not that it was originally sectioned off....but anyway)by clearing up the idea that promises were left unfulfilled or that God had rejected His people (confusion from what was written in Romans 10).

Romans 10:21~

21But as for Israel he says:

“All day long I have held out My hands

to a disobedient and obstinate people.”(l)​

Romans 11:1-4 ~
A Remnant Chosen by Grace

1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”(a)?4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”(b)
​

Do you see the correlation between Paul and what he's bringing up about Elijah? Who does it identify as "His people He foreknew"? It's the faithful remnant of which Paul is included.

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Yep, I understand, you read Romans 11 differently.

mkgal1 said:

The phrases....."The Body of Christ"...."New Jerusalem"....and a new "Israel" in the New Covenant all refer to God's dwelling place on earth. That's what was being "built" during Jesus's ministry and the disciples continued in that ministry. Those phrases refer to the temple not made with human hands (with Jesus as the "chief cornerstone")....and the fulfillment of God's plan to have a kingdom of priests on earth to reign with Him:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”

1 Peter 1:15-16 ~ but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."​

A fulfillment of this promise:

Spoken to Israel:

Leviticus 19:2 ~ "Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.​

Exodus 19:6 ~ you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
​

That seems to be the only nation God is concerned with.

The old covenant Israel doesn't qualify as a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation " because only one specific line was set apart as priests. The promise was that all of God’s holy nation would serve as priests...and that was fulfilled in the New Covenant Israel of God.

Revelation 5:10 ~ You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”​

And you identify this "nation Israel " today...how? I believe that question was asked way back in the early pages of this thread (but was never answered).

Since we read Romans 11 differently, would you please inform me of a promise to Abraham that God has left unfulfilled (in your belief)?

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All those passages refer to the nation Israel. I asked you which Pauline passage ever refers to the Body of Christ as Israel. There is none, as you can see.

As for your last question, there is still the issue of land on Earth, that God promised Abraham that his descendants would have. It is far bigger than what the current Israel has.

Zechariah 8 also tells you that God himself will dwell in Jerusalem among the Jews, which is obviously not happening now.

jgr said:

Please provide a direct quote in which I "regard the Body of Christ as the new Israel".

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2. Scripture, which unites them. (John 10:16;Romans 10:12;Galatians 3:28;
Colossians 3:11;Ephesians 2:14-16).

So you are actually saying that the body of Christ unites all Jews and Gentiles who believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4? But Israel is still the nation Israel?

We are in agreement then.

Guojing said:

As for your last question, there is still the issue of land on Earth, that God promised Abraham that his descendants would have. It is far bigger than what the current Israel has.

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Is that the only promise left unfulfilled (in your opinion)? That seems to be the only one I've heard claimed.

Guojing said:

All those passages refer to the nation Israel. I asked you which Pauline passage ever refers to the Body of Christ as Israel. There is none, as you can see.

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There is ONE Gospel....ONE people of God. Peter and Paul didn't teach differently. 1st Peter demonstates promises to the Israelites were fulfilled in the early church (Jews and Gentiles as one).

mkgal1 said:

Is that the only promise left unfulfilled (in your opinion)? That seems to be the only one I've heard claimed.

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There should be more, but this is the one that most of us are aware of, as stated in Genesis 13

14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

mkgal1 said:

There is ONE Gospel....ONE people of God. Peter and Paul didn't teach differently. 1st Peter demonstates promises to the Israelites were fulfilled in the early church (Jews and Gentiles as one).

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Let us just agree to disagree and move on from this point.

Guojing said:

2. Scripture, which unites them. (John 10:16;Romans 10:12;Galatians 3:28;
Colossians 3:11;Ephesians 2:14-16).

So you are actually saying that the body of Christ unites all Jews and Gentiles who believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4? But Israel is still the nation Israel?

We are in agreement then.

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Certainly there is a geopolitical nation of Israel. It is comprised of believers and unbelievers, the same as in the world at large.

Its believers are part of the Church.

Its unbelievers are the same as unbelievers in the world at large.

They are lost unless they accept Christ.

Guojing said:

There should be more, but this is the one that most of us are aware of, as stated in Genesis 13

14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

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Who is the seed?

1. Jews
2. Christ

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

jgr said:

Certainly there is a geopolitical nation of Israel. It is comprised of believers and unbelievers, the same as in the world at large.

Its believers are part of the Church.

Its unbelievers are the same as unbelievers in the world at large.

They are lost unless they accept Christ.

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Yes, the nation Israel has fallen, and is the same as any other nation now.

That does not mean God has no special plan for this particular nation in the future.