Temporal Salvation?

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Gr8Grace

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Well since we don't believe, teach, or practice this you must not be talking to me or anyone else you have been talking about.


Doug
One more thing. I have read and debated thousands of post's from Armin's and thousands from Calvins(Was under a calvin teacher for quite some time.) And I still don't know what they believe? Nonsense.

1. I nailed what you believe.

2. You had better talk to your pastor if after 588 post's people don't know what you believe.
 
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Gr8Grace

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The simplicity of the Christian way of life:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Trust in His person( Gods only begotten Son,100% true deity 100% true humanity) and work(He paid for all sin and reconciled the world to Himself{equal privilege,equal opportunity for ALL}] for your salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

Grow in His Grace and knowledge. Under your RIGHT pastor teacher. 2 Pet 3:18, Eph 4:11,1 Cor 12:28. Study,study and study. Listen,metabolize and apply His doctrine's.


Do not quench the Spirit.1 Thess 5:19

Do not grieve the Spirit. Eph 4:30

Name and site your sins to God( When we quench or grieve the Spirit.) 1 John 1:9

Be filled and walk in the Spirit. Eph 5:18,Gal 5:16; Gal 5:25

Fulfill this.........And you are living the Christian way of life or the Spiritual life.

Rom 8:16~~New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Seems to me a few on this forum don't understand the Spiritual life. If they did, they would KNOW that they are a child of God........Right now and forever.

Romans 8~~1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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TibiasDad

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Well you fooled me. Been following pretty close for quite some time now, And here is the list that you replied to and clicked "winner" for:

1. Jesus gave the capability to become CoG to whoever received Him – to those who believe in His name J1:12

2. CoG are those Jews & Gentiles (J11:52) who:

A. Confess Jesus Christ came in flesh 1J4:4

B. Do Righteousness 1J3:10

C. Keep God’s commandments/Love God 1J5:2

D. Love their fellow CoG; 1J3:10

E. Suffer together with Jesus Christ while being led by the Spirit & by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body Rom8:13—17

F. Are free from & thus no longer enslaved to corruption/depravity Rom8:21

G. Imitate God as His beloved Children Eph5:1

H. Obey Apostolic instruction to: (i) work to accomplish their Salvation in fear & trembling while God works in them to will & do what pleases Him, and; (ii) do all things to become blameless & innocent CoG without complaining & arguing as they hold fast the Word of Life Phil2:12—16

I. Will see Jesus Christ when He is revealed, and will be like Him 1J3:2

When I use this detail to let God explain to me who His Children are, it leaves little to no room for this immediate born again concept with no obedience to the commanded growth, or born again & walk away as warned & commanded not to do. As you said, there is an "ultimate fulfillment" to such terminology. The problem with the non-fulfillment theory is that when a Child of God is defined, the non-fulfilling do not fit the definition and would seem to be left out.

The key is that Jesus gave us the capacity to do these things, we do not possess them naturally. We are already regenerated and born again when we receive this authority to become a child of God! It is all about what Christ has done, not what we have done!

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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One more thing. I have read and debated thousands of post's from Armin's and thousands from Calvins(Was under a calvin teacher for quite some time.) And I still don't know what they believe? Nonsense.

1. I nailed what you believe.

2. You had better talk to your pastor if after 588 post's people don't know what you believe.

I am a pastor, and my senior pastor and I have been ordained for the same amount of time! (1989) and we both had several years on ministry under our belts before that! He would not be at odds with me! Nothing happens without God first acting upon us to enable us to respond to him favorably, and God is never obligated solely or primarily by what we do! He acts only as he chooses! Your assertions demand that God is obligated by our actions, and that puts us in control and God subject to our will! No Arminian, (or Christian in my mind), believes that!

Doug
 
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FreeGrace2

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Gr8Grace said:
Grow in His Grace and knowledge. Under your RIGHT pastor teacher. 2 Pet 3:18, Eph 4:11,1 Cor 12:28. Study,study and study. Listen,metabolize and apply His doctrine's.
Rebounded lately?
The last 3 words of Gr8Grace's post already answered your question.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay, I'll play your game... If your assertions are correct, John 3:18 should read "Anyone who has believed at any point in the past (aorist punctiliar action) is not condemned" instead of "Anyone believing (presently and actively) is not condemned."

Use of the aorist in reference to those not having believed does not negate or mitigate the fact that present tense believing is the associative reality of not being condemned. It says no one believing, not anyone who has believed! Just because you once believed, does not necessitate that you are currently doing so, but if you are not now believing, then the first clause of John 3:18 cannot apply to you, for it says "the one believing is not condemned."

Doug

Amen hence John 15:6
 
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Gr8Grace

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Gr8Grace said:
Grow in His Grace and knowledge. Under your RIGHT pastor teacher. 2 Pet 3:18, Eph 4:11,1 Cor 12:28. Study,study and study. Listen,metabolize and apply His doctrine's.

The last 3 words of Gr8Grace's post already answered your question.
Bingo.
 
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GDL

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The simplicity of the Christian way of life:

According to you & your extensive studies, or according to your solidly encamped teacher, no matter what all the other systems of theology say? We know your answer.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Trust in His person( Gods only begotten Son,100% true deity 100% true humanity) and work(He paid for all sin and reconciled the world to Himself{equal privilege,equal opportunity for ALL}] for your salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

So we go backwards now and have to rehash all that's been said re: John3 & Acts16, including all the discussion re: the tenses and defining of "believe." Do you realize how John builds his doctrine based upon all that Jesus taught and said that John under inspiration decided to include & that John3 is just getting started? Do you realize that other inspired writers added instruction and definition to teach more comprehensively what it means to believe as John literally writes "into" Jesus Christ & how other exegetes see this wording as meaning that Biblical Faith into Jesus Christ is a very dynamic concept and not some one-time event?

Grow in His Grace and knowledge. Under your RIGHT pastor teacher. 2 Pet 3:18, Eph 4:11,1 Cor 12:28. Study,study and study. Listen,metabolize and apply His doctrine's.

Good, we now have 1 command stated out of the nearly 1,000 commands in the New Covenant. If we're obeying this command are we going to get hounded by you that we think it's all about "I, I, I" because we're religious and don't understand Grace? BTW, if you obey this command to grow, do you not self-recognize your obedience and fall under a sense of the I, I, I you condemn? Are you really so far gone that you think you're the only one(s) who understand God's Grace?

You might want to take a look at the referenced verses that you say inform us that we have a RIGHT pastor teacher. Would you mind showing us the "RIGHT" concept from those 2 references? And are others who think they have "RIGHT" pastor teachers in other camps in error, or sin because they don't believe what your RIGHT pastor teacher sees in Scripture?

How about if we might find your terminology a bit strange & wonder why our teacher or teachers never found the terminology "metabolize" doctrine in the Text. Is that because they're don't have the pt gift?

Do not quench the Spirit.1 Thess 5:19

Do not grieve the Spirit. Eph 4:30

Name and site your sins to God( When we quench or grieve the Spirit.) 1 John 1:9

Be filled and walk in the Spirit. Eph 5:18,Gal 5:16; Gal 5:25

Fulfill this.........And you are living the Christian way of life or the Spiritual life.

5 more commands (and some misspelling) and we're good to go with the Christian Spiritual Life. It's all so easy. Belief is so simple. Jesus does it all and don't ever say I, I, I or you're just religious.

And remember, no harm & no foul if we don't do this, we'll still be in Heaven although maybe a little early & scarred-up due to all the being scourged with a whip & eventual sin unto death, and so likely without some wealth added to our guaranteed inheritance.

Rom 8:16~~New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Seems to me a few on this forum don't understand the Spiritual life. If they did, they would KNOW that they are a child of God........Right now and forever.

We who are Children of God? Those who believed once, fell away, went back to eating vomit like dogs, we're dried up unproductive branches that got thrown into fire & burned, never brought fruit to perfection/completion, never remotely came to the point of fitting the Biblical descriptions of true Children of God, and come to Him in judgement only to hear Him tell them to get away from Him for doing lawlessness - those supposed children of God?

Trust me (or not), all is not as it "seems" to you no matter what you've been taught to believe by a your certain RIGHT pastor teacher.

Romans 8~~1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Another cherry-picked verse that leaves out all additional context and doesn't explain what "condemnation" here means. I guess since we don't KNOW things, we don't know to look at and interpret all of what Paul's explaining and what his terminology means after we look at all he says about it. But I'm sure we need to be cautious with you, because we're going to run into a lot more of those I, I, I religious failures as we proceed into Rom8 with its commands we need to actively obey in Christ and its discussion about how being under subjection to God's Grace has freed us from being ruled by sin. Another thing we don't really have to worry about unless we just want to get spanked even unto death and lose some wealth from our inheritance.

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

My highlight added to your quote.

NKJ John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Don't be concerned with anything. Nothing can separate us from God's love which is in Christ Jesus. Even though it seems clear that these verses in Romans are speaking of things outside of ourselves, don't worry because we can insert what we want, so not even you can separate yourself because God places no value or importance in human will. Don't worry about the Lord Jesus Christ's commands and instruction to remain in Him & have His words remain in you. Don't worry that the word "remain" in itself acknowledges the adverse state of leaving. Don't worry about being productive as every other branch that actually remains attached to the vine & get's pruned will become. Don't worry about disobeying His command to remain in His love, because nothing, not even you, not even your disobedience to His commands can separate you from His love. And don't worry because not obeying His commands, not remaining in His love, not remaining in Him, not having His words remain in you, not being productive as an abiding Child of God in continuing Faith-Obedience so you ultimately fit His description of His Children, only means that you will be spanked and lose rewards.

Stay encamped. Enjoy the myopic error. You and your fellow soldier. Everybody else is wrong and KNOWS nothing. You can just discredit them with the easy flip of label as being in another camp, no matter who they are or what they've done with their gifts and hard work in Christ. They're just part of the 98% (maybe it's 99% or more by now).
 
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FreeGrace2

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Stay encamped. Enjoy the myopic error. You and your fellow soldier. Everybody else is wrong and KNOWS nothing. You can just discredit them with the easy flip of label as being in another camp
What a copout This poster knows full well that neither Gr8grace nor I have discredited these guys by "the easy flip of label as being in another camp". How absurd!

In fact, Gr8Grace and I have used the Word of God to discredit their unbiblical claims and ideas.

This is the reason these guys have "blocked" me. They cannot refute my claims, nor defend their own claims.

For example, they believe that salvation can be lost, and therefore, recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus said in the clearest of language, that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Bingo! Cannot be refuted. But CAN be rejected, ignored, dismissed, or disparaged.

To the peril of those who do so.
 
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JLB777

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Yet, Jesus said in the clearest of language, that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

That’s not what Jesus said, but you know that don’t you, which is why you keep quoting half of the passage. This is the mark of false teachers who are sent to deceive.

Here is what John 10:28 actually says.


And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

You conveniently left out part of the verse.


Why?


And” is a conjunction that ties together the previous verse which you have purposely not quoted for the last 8 years that I have been discussing this doctrine with you.


It’s obvious to us why you leave out part of verse 28, because it begins with a conjunction that links it to verse 27. Verse 27 is the condition for receiving the promise of verse 28.

You falsely and deceitfully present verse 28 as an unconditional stand alone promise from the Lord, that somehow overrules all the other scriptures in the Bible.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


It is to those who hear and follow (trust and obey) the Lord in this life who are given eternal life; who inherit eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29



Those who hear with the intent of doing what is heard shall receive the promise of eternal life.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




Case Closed.




JLB
 
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TibiasDad

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That’s not what Jesus said, but you know that don’t you, which is why you keep quoting half of the passage. This is the mark of false teachers who are sent to deceive.

Here is what John 10:28 actually says.


And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

You conveniently left out part of the verse.


Why?


And” is a conjunction that ties together the previous verse which you have purposely not quoted for the last 8 years that I have been discussing this doctrine with you.


It’s obvious to us why you leave out part of verse 28, because it begins with a conjunction that links it to verse 27. Verse 27 is the condition for receiving the promise of verse 28.

You falsely and deceitfully present verse 28 as an unconditional stand alone promise from the Lord, that somehow overrules all the other scriptures in the Bible.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


It is to those who hear and follow (trust and obey) the Lord in this life who are given eternal life; who inherit eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29



Those who hear with the intent of doing what is heard shall receive the promise of eternal life.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




Case Closed.




JLB

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! QED!

Doug
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Yet, Jesus said in the clearest of language, that recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.""
That’s not what Jesus said
That's what Jesus said in the PLAINEST OF LANGUAGE. But it seems you would just rather not believe what He said. Why?

but you know that don’t you, which is why you keep quoting half of the passage. This is the mark of false teachers who are sent to deceive.
There is NO WAY to misunderstand what Jesus said, unless one just doesn't want to accept what He said.

Recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. That IS what He said.

Here is what John 10:28 actually says.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

You conveniently left out part of the verse.
Yes, I did. For convenience. The second part of the verse does NOT change the first part into something else. In fact, it only STRENGTHENS what the first part says.

iow, "no one", meaning NO PERSON can remove a believer from God's hand.

So, thanks for pointing that out.

I just told you.

And” is a conjunction that ties together the previous verse which you have purposely not quoted for the last 8 years that I have been discussing this doctrine with you.
You know better than to lie about this. I HAVE addressed the "and". What YOU cannot and have not shown is that there is ANY kind of "conditional clause" in v.27 that results in any conclusion in v.28, even though that has been your claim all along.

You simply CANNOT prove your claim. Your claim is empty.

v.27 is a description about what Jesus' sheep DO. There is nothing about what they DO to receive eternal life, which is your wild claim.

In fact, since they are ALREADY His sheep, they ALREADY have eternal life. So there is nothing in v.27 about what His sheep do that will result in eternal life.

The MERE FACT that they ARE His sheep means they HAVE eternal life.

And the result of having eternal life is NEVER PERISHING, obviously.

But, it is only obvious to those who don't have an unbiblical agenda. To those with an unbiblical agenda, they are blind to the truth of what Jesus said.

It’s obvious to us why you leave out part of verse 28, because it begins with a conjunction that links it to verse 27. Verse 27 is the condition for receiving the promise of verse 28.
Again, I WILL address the conjunction of continuation. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, AND, v.28 is the result of being given eternal life; the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Got it?

You falsely and deceitfully present verse 28 as an unconditional stand alone promise from the Lord, that somehow overrules all the other scriptures in the Bible.
Ha. v.28 IS a stand alone promise from the Lord. Those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
So, where is any kind of conditional clause that links "knowing and following" with "never perish" ? I'll tell you where. Nowhere. That's where.

Those who have a firm grip on language easily see that. v.27 is a description of what they DO, AND v.28 is the result of receiving eternal life; they shall never perish.

But you won't see this. The reason His sheep SHALL NEVER PERISH is becuase 9of what they have been given, which is eternal life. There is nothing about "knowing and following" that results in having eternal life. That comes from faith alone in Christ alone. I've already given you the long list of verses that tell us clearly that belief is the basis for possessing eternal life.

So you are just wasting your time trying to push your ridiculous notion that v.27 is a conditional clause that is the protasis for the apodosis in v.28.

Protasis vs Apodosis - What's the difference?
the difference between protasis and apodosis
is that protasis is (logic|grammar) the antecedent in a conditional sentence while apodosis is (logic|grammar) the consequential clause in a conditional sentence.

It is obvious to everyone who has a firm grasp on language that the "and" at the beginning of v.28 in NO WAY creates what you want it to mean.

It is to those who hear and follow (trust and obey) the Lord in this life who are given eternal life; who inherit eternal life.
And...you have ZERO verses that say this.

otoh, I have many many verses that say that both salvation and eternal life is obtained by belief. Not hearing/following/doing/etc.

And you've seen them all. Which means you don't believe any of them.
 
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TibiasDad

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You cannot lose something that is eternal.

Eternal is the quality of the life: Life will never cease to be eternal, but our possession of it is not ever called eternal or permanent! My car will always be what a car is, but that doesn't mean I will always possess it! The possession of a thing is very different from the quality of the thing possessed!


Doug
 
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FreeGrace2

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Basketball said:
You cannot lose something that is eternal.
Eternal is the quality of the life
Obviously this poster does not understand words. The word "eternal" refers to timeless. Not about quality.

And the Bible says that God is eternal life. This is another way of saying that God has no beginning or ending.

The translations that use "eternal life" should have used "everlasting life". Since human beings have a beginning.

Life will never cease to be eternal, but our possession of it is not ever called eternal or permanent!
Another error! The possession of it IS called "eternal life", which means "everlasting life".

My car will always be what a car is, but that doesn't mean I will always possess it!
More error!! While automobiles wear out, as all created things do, the Bible guarantees everlasting life for those who have believed in Christ.

This poster has seen the long list of verses that specifically say that eternal (everlasting) life is by belief in Christ, so he has no excuse for his unbiblical claims.

The possession of a thing is very different from the quality of the thing possessed!
Did you catch another ERROR by this poster? He equates everlasting life with "a thing".

And that's the problem. Arminians treat possession of everlasting life as no different than whatever "thing" is in their pocket at the moment.

If they have a hole in their pocket, they will lose that "thing". And that's how they view the gift of "eternal life" that Jesus gives those who believe in Him for it.

So they view God's greatest gift to mankind as the same kind of cheap 'thing" in their pocket.

Since this poster has blocked me, he can't see my posts.

So maybe someone else can copy and paste this in a post to him. He'll see that.
 
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FreeGrace2

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JLB777 said:
And” is a conjunction that ties together the previous verse which you have purposely not quoted for the last 8 years that I have been discussing this doctrine with you
8 years...
Post 454. He lies. A lot.
 
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