King of the North, Prince of the Covenant?

Jamdoc

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Daniel 8 is a separate time period from the vision in Daniel 9 (the 70 week prophecy).

Regarding Daniel 8:

Quoting linked article:

The little horn will take away the daily sacrifice and brought low the sanctuary (11).
The daily sacrifice (tamid) was to be offered twice each day. Priests offered sacrifices on behalf of all the people (Exodus 29:38-41, Numbers 28:3-8). In 167 B.C. Antiochus ordered these daily sacrifices to be stopped (1 Maccabees 1:44-45).

The sacrifices are suspended for 2300 days. There are several schemes for showing paralleling with Antiochus’ suspension of sacrifice. ~ "Daniel 8 –The Ram and the Goat – Reading Acts" Daniel 8 –The Ram and the Goat

okay so why did Jesus treat it as a future event in Matthew 24? Was Antiochus a type fulfillment and then a future event will mirror it?
 
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BABerean2

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Okay so chapter 9 was fulfilled in that regard. But chapter 8 gives a period of 2300 days from the beginning of daily sacrifices (remember Daniel was writing from a time where the temple had been destroyed, to see daily sacrifices again was a future event for him) till the cleansing of the temple.

I am noting that in Daniel 9 the period of 69 weeks is not given to be the time of the end. Daniel 8 is given for the time of the end, and Daniel 12 is given for the time of the end.


Can you explain the following verse?

Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

Part of the Book of Daniel cannot be fully comprehended without an understanding of the verse above.

......................................


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 
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mkgal1

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okay so why did Jesus treat it as a future event in Matthew 24? Was Antiochus a type fulfillment and then a future event will mirror it?
Yes.....the destruction of Solomon's Temple and the suspension of sacrifices was a type of fulfillment that was mirrored in 70 AD (which was future to when Jesus gave the warning signs to look for). The first was only a shadow of what was to come through Christ's ministry.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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9:27 is probably about Jesus, sure. But the guy's point about 70AD being the fulfillment of the 70th week is utter nonsense. There was no cleansing of the temple, sacrifices went on longer than 2300 days, and it certainly wasn't the end of the world and Jesus didn't return then.

and if that's the case what's with the covenant only being 7 years? It's not referring to His ministry, that was 3, maybe 3.5 years (which would be prophetic in a sense, that the antichrist's reign would be a mirror image of Jesus' ministry). The new covenant is eternal not 7 years right?
The number 7 is in many contexts referring to eternal or forever.
 
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mkgal1

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9:27 is probably about Jesus, sure. But the guy's point about 70AD being the fulfillment of the 70th week is utter nonsense.

and if that's the case what's with the covenant only being 7 years?
The destruction of the Temple was the aftermath of the 70th week.

Daniel didn't prophesy of a 7 year covenant.....it's written that "He will *confirm* a covenant " for seven years. Jesus was anointed at His baptism in 27 AD.....was crucified in "the midst of the week" in 30 AD....and the Gospel was preached only to the Jews until 34 AD. (7 years only for the Jews).
 
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Jamdoc

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Can you explain the following verse?

Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

Part of the Book of Daniel cannot be fully comprehended without an understanding of the verse above.

......................................


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Yes.....the destruction of Solomon's Temple and the suspension of sacrifices was a type of fulfillment that was mirrored in 70 AD (which was future to when Jesus gave the warning signs to look for). The first was only a shadow of what was to come through Christ's ministry.

But Jesus treated the abomination of desolation as a future event, and did not return around AD70
so it would appear that there is yet another mirrored event in our future of like kind, because Jesus gave that event as a sign of His return, specifically.

and the one that Jesus was referring to just before His coming, He said would be worse than any prior persecution, and would never be surpassed.
 
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mkgal1

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But Jesus treated the abomination of desolation as a future event, and did not return around AD70
so it would appear that there is yet another mirrored event in our future of like kind, because Jesus gave that event as a sign of His return, specifically.
Jesus gave that warning in 30 AD. The Temple destruction occurred in 70 AD, so it *was* in their future.....but still their generation (so the signs of when to flee were important for His audience in 30 AD to know.)

This wasn't Jesus's *return*.

A "coming" in biblical terms is typically referring to a judgment from God....His presence through earthly and significant occurances (like the destruction of the magnificent Temple).

Luke 21
The Destruction of Jerusalem

(Matthew 24:15–25; Mark 13:14–23)

20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
 
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mkgal1

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and the one that Jesus was referring to just before His coming, He said would be worse than any prior persecution, and would never be surpassed.
The first Temple destruction was not the end of the Mosaic Covenant. They rebuilt and continued. 70 AD destruction was truly the end of the Sinai Mosaic Covenant. You can't get much worse than "disappeared" as Hebrews puts it:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 
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Jamdoc

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The first Temple destruction was not the end of the Mosaic Covenant. They rebuilt and continued. 70 AD destruction was truly the end of the Sinai Mosaic Covenant. You can't get much worse than "disappeared" as Hebrews puts it:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

That didn't really address what you quoted.
Just before His coming and gathering all the saints
just before His wrath on the earth and earth's destruction and making a new heavens and new earth.

and there has been worse persecution since 70AD, was Jesus speaking in hyperbole?
 
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mkgal1

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That didn't really address what you quoted.
Just before His coming and gathering all the saints
Those that followed His instructions to flee Jerusalem were spared. That was the gathering of His saints (around 66 AD)

just before His wrath on the earth and earth's destruction and making a new heavens and new earth.
Look at Matthew 5:18. Have parts of the Law passed? Do we sacrifice animals through a Levitical priest at the Temple? If not.....the heaven and earth (biblically) must have passed away.

and there has been worse persecution since 70AD, was Jesus speaking in hyperbole?
The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was the result (the woes) of those under the Mosaic Covenant. The removal of that entire system and the permanent removal of the Kingdom of God from the Levitical priesthood was truly the end of the covenant. That's not hyperbolic.
 
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BABerean2

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But Jesus treated the abomination of desolation as a future event, and did not return around AD70
so it would appear that there is yet another mirrored event in our future of like kind, because Jesus gave that event as a sign of His return, specifically.

and the one that Jesus was referring to just before His coming, He said would be worse than any prior persecution, and would never be surpassed.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

.
 
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Jamdoc

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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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again, we've had worse since 70AD. Far worse. Either that's not the fulfillment Jesus was really talking about, or Jesus speaks in Hyperbole, and I don't think Jesus is just a big talker.
 
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DavidPT

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Those that followed His instructions to flee Jerusalem were spared. That was the gathering of His saints (around 66 AD)


I'm assuming this is based on Matthew 24:30-31 what you are referring to. But if not, disregard my post altogether since this would indicate I misunderstood what you were referring to.

Assuming I didn't misunderstand, when it comes to prophetic events, believe it or not, chronology actually matters. Chronology reveals that the coming and gathering in question, these both are after the trib of those days, and also after the period defined as the sun going dark, the stars falling, etc.

When is it that you take the trib of those days to be meaning? From when to when? In order for your proposal to fit the texts involved, it requires that the trib of those days began and finished prior to 66 AD, and that the sun went dark, the stars fell, prior to 66 AD as well. It doesn't matter whether literal or non literal events are being meant by the sun going dark. What matters is, whatever events might explain those things, they would have to precede 66 AD in order to agree with your conclusions. The idea is to get our conclusions to agree with the texts, though.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Unless this translation is wrong, it can't get any clearer as to when this coming and gathering is meaning. It plainly spells it out for us in verse 29.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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He isn't talking about His return yet at that point in the Olivet Discourse. The Lord begins talking about His future Parousia when He tells us that of that day and hour no one knows except the Father.

There are no signs to look out for concerning when He will return, because the whole point Jesus is making is we can't know when He will return. If there were signs showing when He is coming, then we could therefore know when He returns. But we can't. We instead have to be like the wise virgins who bring enough oil to wait out the night, we have to be like a faithful servant and wisely invest our talent, we have to be faithful to Christ caring for the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the poor, the naked, and the stranger.

The signs Jesus mentions point to the destruction of the Temple.

The disciples ask, what to look out for to know when the Temple will be destroyed, when the Lord's coming will be, and the end of the age. Jesus clearly separates the destruction of the Temple from the conclusion of history and His return as judge of quick and the dead. He gives things to look for concerning the destruction of the Temple, but concerning His return and the end of the age He is very clear that we--nobody--knows. So we have to be vigilant and faithful at all times since we don't know when it will happen.

Jesus isn't ducking around anything, He is answering their question. Jesus wasn't talking about His return or the end of the age, He says the day will come when the stones of the Temple will no longer be standing, this is what prompts the disciples to ask their question. The way they ask their question brings all these things together, but Jesus unpacks the question and answers:

He first tells them not to panic when they see wars, rumors of wars, conflicts, disasters, these are simply birth-pangs, the sorrows of a fallen world crying out.

Then He tells them what will happen to them, they would face harassment and persecution.

He warns against false messianic claimants and false predictions.

He points out what signs there are concerning the destruction of the Temple.

And then He discusses His return, by saying no one knows the day or hour, that it will be as in the days of Noah where people were going about their lives as normal when suddenly, without warning, the flood came. In the same way, Jesus says, two will be in a field one is taken and one is left, etc. So the coming of the Son of Man will be, when He comes in judgment it will happen without warning. Therefore we are to be as the wise virgins, to be as the faithful servant. We are to be faithful to Christ our Lord, to be about our Lord's work and business as His Church until the day He comes.

-CryptoLutheran
I'd like to add, if I may, that watchfulness is key in these passages and seen in others as well...
Matthew 24:31-34 we are given the example of the fig tree and when we see all these events taking place we know, we know the Day is right at the door.
Hebrews 10:25 speaks of *seeing* the day approaching which is to stimulate us to more fervor and watchfulness and all those activities you mention including the soul care of those we love and meet. But there is a searching out of the signs of the Day.
II Thessalonians 2:2-3 addresses the faithful concerning the Lord's return...Paul gives additional details or signs (the lawless one will be revealed) of the end times and a reason for such instruction is to safe guard the flock from deception as we can read there.
Therefore, and I'm not accusing you of doing this, we must not dissuade Christians from searching out end time details in terms of signs, etc. It rouses the spirit in us to not allow one stone unturned while we endeavor and strive to do His will while we are in this tent of a body here on earth.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Yeah it's a tough book to understand all these various characters, that's why I made the thread, trying to sort through them. The main question was answered though in that the covenant in 9:27 is not a reference to the prince of the covenant in Daniel 11, they're separate entities. But of course, there's more confusing elements and characters to discuss from the whole book.
NO, I realize that the Prince of the Covenant is a believer in either the spiritual realm or the earth. You may think it strange that I speak of these wars as being waged on perhaps two fields: spiritual or earthly. It comes from the following passage:
Ephesians 6:12:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
This I find hard to dismiss. Scripture speaks of the angels many times and in many ways as armies...they certainly have ranks. We know Satan has tempting powers and if his angels rule certain areas or peoples on the earth with evil forces then we see that the interpretation of Daniel has two prongs...what is going on above and how that is impacting us here below. It is said that Satan reigns over the unbelievers and his temptations, plots and plans may be brought to fruition using these unbelievers...hence the wars recorded in Daniel??? So, hard to decipher one realm from another, but using just the spiritual doesn't seem to work nor just the earthly. Seems to shift.
 
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BABerean2

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again, we've had worse since 70AD. Far worse. Either that's not the fulfillment Jesus was really talking about, or Jesus speaks in Hyperbole, and I don't think Jesus is just a big talker.


What is the mathematical probability that the common word elements would be found in these two texts if they are not related?
That probability is zero, because no other passage of two consecutive verses contains these same word elements.


Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Almost all Bible scholars agree that the beginning of the verse above is about 70 AD.

The only way to "understand" Matthew 24:15 is to understand John 10:22.


.
 
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Jamdoc

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What is the mathematical probability that the common word elements would be found in these two texts if they are not related?
That probability is zero, because no other passage of two consecutive verses contains these same word elements.


Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Almost all Bible scholars agree that the beginning of the verse above is about 70 AD.

The only way to "understand" Matthew 24:15 is to understand John 10:22.


.

It still shows a lack of understanding. Because as I keep trying to hammer into you. Jesus did not return to earth in 70AD, and we have had worse tribulation than 70AD.

Jesus gave this sign not as just some random event to watch out for in the future, but as the event that would precede the tribulations that IMMEDIATELY AFTER they happened, He'd return.

1290 days, 1335 days, even 2300 days after the fall of Jerusalem, was not the end of the world, and Jesus didn't return, and we've had worse tribulation in this world since.

At the time of the 1st century, the gospel hadn't been spread to every single ethnic group on the planet yet either, "all nations"
Jesus said the gospel MUST be preached all over the world, to ALL NATIONS.
Who had spread the gospel to the people who lived on North Sentinel Island by 70AD? I don't think anyone's successfully spread the gospel to them now. The last guy who tried to reach them with a bible got shot with arrows. Did he count as spreading the gospel to them?

Sorry man, just because it fits 1 aspect of what Jesus was talking about doesn't make it fulfillment because there's a lot of aspects that it does NOT fit.
Either that or you believe that Jesus talks in hyperbole.
 
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parousia70

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. This is why I can't take preterists or partial preterists seriously because it makes Jesus look like He's not answering the question but ducking around it and telling them about something not connected to His return by almost 2000 years.

So when do you say In the Discourse did Jesus answer their question about WHEN the temple would fall?

Or do you believe Jesus "Ducked around" that question in His response?

And If you believed He ducked that question and did not answer it, then, by your own criteria, how can we take you seriously, when you make it look like He's not answering the question..?

Or, is it different when YOU do it?
 
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parousia70

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and there has been worse persecution since 70AD, was Jesus speaking in hyperbole?
Asked and Answered HERE.

But I''ll repost:
Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matthew 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been MANY "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.


That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4,23; Philippians 1:6,10; Hebrews 10:25,36-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Jeremiah 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them, on time, as prophesied. (Matthew 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Feel free to demonstrate how this is incorrect.
 
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BABerean2

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It still shows a lack of understanding. Because as I keep trying to hammer into you. Jesus did not return to earth in 70AD, and we have had worse tribulation than 70AD.

You did not answer the question about Matthew 24:15-16, and Luke 21:20-21.


I have never said Jesus returned to planet earth during 70 AD.

God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem, in the same way He had used the Babylonians to destroy it during an earlier time.

The future Second Coming occurs when the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness, based on Luke 21:24-28.


.
 
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