So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
So we still have a standing commandment to watch for the signs that Jesus gave of His return, and if we don't, it'll come on us like a thief in the night,

Jesus does not say "the muslims come as a thief in the night"
or "The wicked come as a thief in the night"

37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

John 16
“These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. 4 But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2020

fwGod said:
To Bob Ryan,

/threads/so-what-why-all-the-fuss-about-eschatology-final-events.8177102/page-8#post-75310737

Bob Ryan: Christ said to believers --

37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
It is AT that great future "flood event" (the second coming) where one is taken and the other left - it comes as a surprise and it happens after the tribulation according to Matthew 24.

FwGod: Correct.

However, the apostle Paul did not teach that to the Church Body of Christ.

Jesus taught it to the 12 Apostles - and they are the body of Christ.
Jesus was speaking of the the future.

John 14:1-4 "I will come again" - the second coming teaching of Christ was to the Apostles. The body of Christ. A lot of Christians today follow the teaching of Christ.

BobRyan · Sep 8, 2020

fwGod said:
Bob Ryan: The point of this thread is to show that none of the scenarios you are mentioning matter to the one who is at the very basic first step Christianity 101 or any level beyond that in their understanding of the Bible.

Where is the "beef"?? in the models that you select from?? They all do not matter once we get to "I have accepted Christ as my Savior"

My response today: That sounds like to me that you are saying that the recently saved Christian doesn't need to hear about a rapture doctrine.

I am saying that if we take any view you wish to select - and declare it to be the right view - then we still don't have anything in that view saying that to not know about the end-sequence for the born-again Christian , is no risk at all since Christians don't control God and have no control over how He chooses to rapture people. Not knowing or knowing... changes nothing in such a model.

fwGod said:
So why was it a 'red flag'
to you for me to say that a new Christian wouldn't need to hear about the rapture?

My point is not specific to you -- my point is that all popular views have that same feature - even ones that do not agree with yours -- they all say it does not matter if we pay attention to the warnings or not - because we have no control over them and there is no "people who do not guess the right sequence can't go to heaven" in any of those scenarios.

===============

So then the "red flag" for all - would be... the Bible never worked that way before - how is it that at the end we would go for the idea of a scenario where we then claim it does not matter if you ignore what the Bible says about it - because you get the good-result "anyway"? That feature to the proposal should be a big wake-up call.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Context would indicate that He was referring to the great tribulation that happens after the abomination of desolation.
Which if you consider 70AD to be a fulfillment of that, then Jesus should have returned then, He didn't.

Then which Coming was this, if not 70AD?
Matthew 21:40-45

So we still have a standing commandment to watch for the signs that Jesus gave of His return, and if we don't, it'll come on us like a thief in the night,

What about those at Sardis in the 1st century?
Revelation 3:3
What if they did not watch? Did His coming befall them as a thief, the way Jesus promised THEM it would?

Of was Jesus merely issuing an empty threat to them he had no intention of Honoring?

And How can it be a "standing commandment" for the past 2000 years, if, as you claim, it never happened to the millions who have lived and died during that time who did not watch?

Again, is your claim our Lord issues empty threats?

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
No doubt.

but that is not when "not one stone is left on top of another" for the temple -- that happened in 70A.D.

The disciples asked about all of it.

Jesus pointed them to the temple they were looking at - and predicting its destruction. That has to be 70A.D.

Matt 24
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

That is 70 A.D. future to them.. not future to us.

Sure but again, context, He gave the prophecy of Daniel as the signs of His return, because he prefaces His return with immediately after the tribulation of those days.

So to call 70AD the fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation and say that Jesus' coming is still in the future is to say we've been in the great tribulation for over 1900 years.

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
Then which Coming was this, if not 70AD?
Matthew 21:40-45

What about those at Sardis in the 1st century?
Revelation 3:3
What if they did not watch? Did His coming befall them as a thief, the way Jesus promised THEM it would?

Of was Jesus merely issuing an empty threat to them he had no intention of Honoring?

And How can it be a "standing commandment" for the past 2000 years, if, as you claim, it never happened to the millions who have lived and died during that time who did not watch?

Again, is your claim our Lord issues empty threats?

Other bad things have happened, but Jesus was referring to things happening just prior to His coming.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Other bad things have happened, but Jesus was referring to things happening just prior to His coming.

Yes, and in Revelation 3:3 He promised actual living, breathing Human beings alive in the first century that His Thief's coming would Befall them, Then.

Was He mistaken?

And again, which Coming is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45 if not His coming in Judgment at 70AD?

Even the Chief Priests and Pharisees understood Jesus was speaking about events that would (and did) befall them. (Matthew 21:45)

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
Yes, and in Revelation 3:3 He promised actual living, breathing Human beings alive in the first century that His Thief's coming would Befall them, Then.

Was He mistaken?

And again, which Coming is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45 if not His coming in Judgment at 70AD?

Even the Chief Priests and Pharisees understood Jesus was speaking about events that would (and did) befall them. (Matthew 21:45)

He wasn't but you are.
Was there a mass rapture and end of the world in 70AD?

It was a regional, not global conflict.
It may have been a type fulfillment as an example, but there will be a true fulfillment that will be global in the future.
On a similar note. The 7 letters to the 7 churches may also be instructions to believers in the last of the last days. He warns the church of Thyatira that He'd put them through the great tribulations if they didn't repent. So 2 ways to look at it. Either they repented so the great tribulations didn't come, or, the warning is not just to the church of thyatira, but to churches that are like Thyatira in the last of the last days.
Jesus told us that the Great Tribulations would be a time of worse persecution than the world has ever seen or would ever see again. We've seen worse than 70AD, so 70AD can't be the true fulfillment, the world's still here, there's still sin and death. You and I would have never been born, if 70AD was the ultimate fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It may have been a type fulfillment as an example, but there will be a true fulfillment that will be global in the future.
On a similar note. The 7 letters to the 7 churches may also be instructions to believers in the last of the last days.

May be a type?, may be instructions?.... sounds like a shifty foundation to build a doctrine upon friend.
If you admittedly don't know, and can only offer "well, it may be this or it may be that" then how can you be so sure of your own position?

Did Jesus Come as a Thief upon those at Sardis that did not watch or Didn't he?

You say He didn't, But Jesus plainly promised them He would.
I believe our Lord is a Promise KEEPER.

Given the choice between choosing which of those two polar opposite positions is correct, that of Jesus Christ or that of random 21st century internet Guy Jamdoc, My money is on Jesus being right, and you being wrong.

He warns the church of Thyatira that He'd put them through the great tribulations if they didn't repent. So 2 ways to look at it. Either they repented so the great tribulations didn't come, or, the warning is not just to the church of thyatira, but to churches that are like Thyatira in the last of the last days.

Untenable. The Warning was to the fist century Church at Thyatria. Such is indesputable.

And, FYI, the timing of the Great Tribulation is fixed regardless of whether or not Human Beings repent.
It's timing is not dependent on the actions of men. There is no scripture that teaches what you claim.
Another view you hold that is polar opposite to scripture.

Jesus told us that the Great Tribulations would be a time of worse persecution than the world has ever seen or would ever see again. We've seen worse than 70AD,

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matthew 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been MANY "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.

That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4,23; Philippians 1:6,10; Hebrews 10:25,36-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Jeremiah 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them, on time, as prophesied. (Matthew 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Now, ever the patient one, I'll ask a 3rd time... WHICH coming DO YOU SAY is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45 if NOT 70AD?

Which one do you say it is/was?
(and try to do your best to steer clear of responses that include: "well, it MAY be this, or it MAY be that)

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
May be a type?, may be instructions?.... sounds like a shifty foundation to build a doctrine upon friend.
If you admittedly don't know, and can only offer "well, it may be this or it may be that" then how can you be so sure of your own position?

Did Jesus Come as a Thief upon those at Sardis that did not watch or Didn't he?

You say He didn't, But Jesus plainly promised them He would.
I believe our Lord is a Promise KEEPER.

Given the choice between choosing which of those two polar opposite positions is correct, that of Jesus Christ or that of random 21st century internet Guy Jamdoc, My money is on Jesus being right, and you being wrong.

Untenable. The Warning was to the fist century Church at Thyatria. Such is indesputable.

And, FYI, the timing of the Great Tribulation is fixed regardless of whether or not Human Beings repent.
It's timing is not dependent on the actions of men. There is no scripture that teaches what you claim.
Another view you hold that is polar opposite to scripture.

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matthew 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been MANY "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.

That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4,23; Philippians 1:6,10; Hebrews 10:25,36-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Jeremiah 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them, on time, as prophesied. (Matthew 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Now, ever the patient one, I'll ask a 3rd time... WHICH coming DO YOU SAY is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45 if NOT 70AD?

Which one do you say it is/was?
(and try to do your best to steer clear of responses that include: "well, it MAY be this, or it MAY be that)

Okay so you believe we live on a world without sin and death? Because that's the fulfillment we're looking for.

and I thought I was being clear. Jesus did not come in the clouds in AD70.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Okay so you believe we live on a world without sin and death? Because that's the fulfillment we're looking for.

I'll happily answer that once you share with us which coming you believe is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45? (4th time asking)

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
I'll happily answer that once you share with us which coming you believe is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45? (4th time asking)

I already thought I was being clear. Jesus did not come in the clouds in AD 70.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I already thought I was being clear. Jesus did not come in the clouds in AD 70.

I understand that is what you believe, but that doesn't answer my question.

WHICH coming do you believe is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45?

Does that passage stand as FULFILLED in your view or is it something we are still waiting on being fulfilled?

And if you say fulfilled, please state WHEN you believe it was fulfilled.

Seems like a pretty straightforward question (5th time Asking)

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Okay so you believe we live on a world without sin and death? Because that's the fulfillment we're looking for.

John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

I believe it.
Do you?

As for Sin, Jesus has rendered it completely powerless, without strength, not imputed against us, remembered no more:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Law of Moses went up in Smoke at AD70.
Jesus Defeated Death and Sin for all who are in Him.

The is NOT coming a day where the unrepentant will likewise be free of the Curse of Sin and Death, as you appear to teach. Which is odd... I didn't peg you for a universalist....

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
I understand that is what you believe, but that doesn't answer my question.

WHICH coming do you believe is depicted in Matthew 21:40-45?

Does that passage stand as FULFILLED in your view or is it something we are still waiting on being fulfilled?

And if you say fulfilled, please state WHEN you believe it was fulfilled.

Seems like a pretty straightforward question (5th time Asking)

The first coming, which is irrelevant to the entire topic of the end times. We already know that Jesus fulfilled a lot of the Messianic Prophecies in His first coming, and He said there would be a second coming, which those who wrote the dead sea scrolls also believed Messiah would come twice.
Jesus is the stone that is rejected. If you want to say that 70AD was the fulfillment of the events surrounding the first coming of our Lord, then yes, it was. But there is a second coming.

It is the second coming that we're waiting for, not the first. The first has been fulfilled, the second has not been fulfilled.

Jamdoc · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

I believe it.
Do you?

As for Sin, Jesus has rendered it completely powerless, without strength, not imputed against us, remembered no more:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The Law of Moses went up in Smoke at AD70.
Jesus Defeated Death and Sin for all who are in Him.

The is NOT coming a day where the unrepentant will likewise be free of the Curse of Sin and Death, as you appear to teach. Which is odd... I didn't peg you for a universalist....

No, but there is a day when the unrepentent will all be judged and there will be a new heavens, and new earth and there will not BE any sinners on it, only the redeemed. That's Revelation 21 and 22, Not the current world we live in.

BABerean2 · Sep 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
The Law of Moses went up in Smoke at AD70.
Jesus Defeated Death and Sin for all who are in Him.

Your two statements above contradict each other.

Based on the verse below the New Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary, with the death of Christ.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

In Galatians 3:16-29 Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

Nobody gained their salvation through the Law of Moses during the year 60 AD, based on what we find in the New Testament.
What do we find in the Book of Hebrews about the New Covenant?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
The first coming,

Did you even read Matthew 21:33-45?
Verse 40-45 plainly happens AFTER the Son is Killed.

What point AFTER the Son was Killed do you say Vs 40-45, where the "Wicked servants were miserably destroyed" came to pass?

For that plainly did NOT happen while Jesus walked the earth in His first coming.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

Jamdoc said:
No, but there is a day when the unrepentent will all be judged and there will be a new heavens, and new earth and there will not BE any sinners on it, only the redeemed. That's Revelation 21 and 22, Not the current world we live in.

Then who are these people, Just outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth that Revelation 22:15 testifies are there?
"But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

The Inspired Apostle John, infallibly testifies that on the new earth, just outside the gates of the city, are "dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

Random Internet guy @Jamdoc say, nope John is wrong... those people are not there then.

Again, faced with choosing which of these two POLAR OPPOSITE views is true and correct, that of the Infallibly inspired Apostle, or that of Random internet guy @Jamdoc, I'm ALWAYS going to side with the Apostle.

Isaiah concurs:
Isaiah 65:
17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah as well, in 65:17-23, Infallibly testifies that in the new earth there WILL be:
Birth,
Ageing,
Death,
Sinners,
Procreation,
The need for Shelter,
The need for Nourishment by food, etc...

I urge you to get right with the scriptures on this.

parousia70 · Sep 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
What do we find in the Book of Hebrews about the New Covenant?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

And the author of Hebrews taught the old covenant at at that time "becoming obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish", not that it had was already obsolete and had already vanished (Hebrews 8:13)....

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The temple needed to fall first...

We know the earthly temple was a copy of heavenly order. The most holy place being an earthly copy of heaven, where God's presence resides.
Hebrews 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these

The author of Hebrews states, in relation to the high priest going into the most holy place once a year, that the way into the holy places is not yet open while the 1st tabernacle is having (present tense) a standing (often used in scripture in regards to sedition or dissension). The author even adds WHICH IS SYMBOLIC FOR THE PRESENT AGE

Hebrews 9:8-9 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first tabernacle is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age).

So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

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