Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
They confirm my reasoning. They do not show the phrase to be a figurative term. If it were so, an interpretation would be given whenever it was intended for the reader to take it figuratively and it makes no difference if the scripture says "a thousand years" or "one thousand years", the phrase is understood to mean "one thousand years" and nothing more beyond that. You are the one who is attempting to make the phrase out to be more than what it is; hence your resorting to semantics.

No they do not, even when presented in expressive terms such as a day being compared to a thousand years or a thousand years being compared to a day in the Lord's sight. A thousand years is always a thousand years. The word "day" in some instances, is expressed in figurative terms and can mean an unspecified period of time depending on how the context of scripture presents the term.

This passage is not used by premillennialists to support their belief in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. They do not need to. Revelation chapter 20 provides them all that they need. Most premillennialists know that the cited passage from Psalms is simply presenting the flow of time from the perspective of God.

No one is attempting to say that it does. The cited passage is purely hypothetical but a thousand years, even in that case, is understood as simply being a thousand years.

It parallels Psalm 90 because Peter was citing Psalm 90 and in this case, Peter was simply explaining that what may seem like a long time in our sight is not necessarily so in the sight of God.

This mistake of claiming that a day is a thousand years in the sight of the Lord is not a mistake unique with premillennialists but a mistake the transcends the eschatological and denominational spectrum, but just as I mentioned concerning the cited passage from Psalms, premillennialists do not appeal to 2 Peter 3 to support their case for a literal thousand year reign. They do not need to. Revelation chapter 20 has all that is needed to bear witness to that teaching.

As I have mentioned before, that chapter that you errantly insist that premillennialists appeal to is not the passage of scripture to which we appeal. It is only to Revelation chapter 20. It is Preterist and Amillennial adherents who appeal to the third chapter of 2 Peter to support their eschatology.

It will no doubt be a terrible time to give oneself over to evil since righteousness will be enforced upon the earth and anything contrary to Christ will be dealt with without delay but when the reign begins, there will only be the godly upon the earth. It will be their progeny who will rebel against Christ at the end of the reign. All may appear to be devoted to Christ during the thousand year reign, but the end of that reign will make plain where all truly stand.

The curse of sin, while not absent, is greatly diminished under the rule of Christ. Mankind is being prepared for a final test for when he will be presented, after having lived under the direct reign of Christ and under the best conditions that he has ever known, a choice as to who to follow: Christ or Satan. Sadly, many will choose Satan. It will be at that time that Christ will be done with this present earth and replace it with a new creation in which there is neither sin, death, nor curse.

Interpreting scripture with scripture is not adding to scripture, but unless we interpret 2 Peter 3 with Revelation 20, those who insist that there is no thousand year reign to be established when Christ returns by relying only on 2 Peter 3 are going to be faced with a contradiction when confronted with Revelation 20. The only answer to this contradiction was simply that John received more revelation about the end times than Peter did.

I have not all been saying that 2 Peter 3 is indicating a future earthly millennial Kingdom as you persist in accusing me of claiming and neither do other premillennialists as a whole but John in the twentieth chapter of Revelation does and he too is looking for a NHNE but after the thousand year reign, and that is all we need for a future thousand year reign of Christ to be a foregone conclusion.

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine.

The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

The phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text.

Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavors starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.

Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomizing the friendliness and hospitality of the place.

This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.

Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’” (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).

People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand but be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.

It is a fact that a thousand is used as much in Scripture to refer to approximate amounts as it is literal ones. The phrase “a thousand” is repeatedly used by the Holy Spirit to describe an indefinite figure/period. Like 10, 100 and 10,000, a thousand is commonly used as an even round figure to represent New Testament truths. Revelation 20, a chapter in the most symbolic book in the Bible, fits this pattern effortlessly. To obtain a broad understanding of the biblical usage of a thousand (even if for the sake of argument it meant 1,000) it is sensible to also study the number 10,000, as both are used in a similar figurative manner throughout Scripture. Involving both in the same study better illustrates the symbolic usage of the number 1,000. One soon discovers, the terms a thousand and ten thousand are employed many times in Scripture, in varying figurative senses, to describe large numbers or vast periods of time. The expressions are also commonly used to symbolically describe great pictures of immeasurable vastness. Notwithstanding, the term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17.

Few will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
I have ten 100 dollar bills here. Will you take a thousand dollars for that computer?

I have ten 100 dollar bills here. Will you take one thousand dollars for that computer?

Prove your point per the above. Demonstrate how there is this big difference between a thousand dollars and one thousand dollars.

People use ‘a thousand’ as a round figure or as a phrase to describe a general amount. If they had $1053 (literally pronounced one thousand and fifty three dollars) it wouldn't be uncommon or unusual to say I had a thousand dollars. They would simply round it off to a familiar even number. This is where 10, 100, 1,000, and 10,000 are often used. These are not wooden numbers.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The Premil millennium has been portrayed for years as some Edenic arrangement with unparalleled bliss and wholesale submission to righteousness, when in fact it is simply more of the same. Basically, your millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding and the bondage of corruption prospering. You have continued death, funerals, hatred, strife and wickedness prospers. This all ends with the biggest rebellion in history.

This whole Premil presentation is a clear bust. It is a debacle. I am sure glad it is not going to happen.

Not true. During the millennial reign, sin and evil will be greatly diminished, the curse minimized, and death a rare thing in comparison to now. It does end with the biggest rebellion in history, but with that end is the creation of a new world in which no sin, evil, death, or curse are found.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
They confirm my reasoning. They do not show the phrase to be a figurative term. If it were so, an interpretation would be given whenever it was intended for the reader to take it figuratively and it makes no difference if the scripture says "a thousand years" or "one thousand years", the phrase is understood to mean "one thousand years" and nothing more beyond that. You are the one who is attempting to make the phrase out to be more than what it is; hence your resorting to semantics.

No they do not, even when presented in expressive terms such as a day being compared to a thousand years or a thousand years being compared to a day in the Lord's sight. A thousand years is always a thousand years. The word "day" in some instances, is expressed in figurative terms and can mean an unspecified period of time depending on how the context of scripture presents the term.

This passage is not used by premillennialists to support their belief in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. They do not need to. Revelation chapter 20 provides them all that they need. Most premillennialists know that the cited passage from Psalms is simply presenting the flow of time from the perspective of God.

No one is attempting to say that it does. The cited passage is purely hypothetical but a thousand years, even in that case, is understood as simply being a thousand years.

It parallels Psalm 90 because Peter was citing Psalm 90 and in this case, Peter was simply explaining that what may seem like a long time in our sight is not necessarily so in the sight of God.

This mistake of claiming that a day is a thousand years in the sight of the Lord is not a mistake unique with premillennialists but a mistake the transcends the eschatological and denominational spectrum, but just as I mentioned concerning the cited passage from Psalms, premillennialists do not appeal to 2 Peter 3 to support their case for a literal thousand year reign. They do not need to. Revelation chapter 20 has all that is needed to bear witness to that teaching.

As I have mentioned before, that chapter that you errantly insist that premillennialists appeal to is not the passage of scripture to which we appeal. It is only to Revelation chapter 20. It is Preterist and Amillennial adherents who appeal to the third chapter of 2 Peter to support their eschatology.

It will no doubt be a terrible time to give oneself over to evil since righteousness will be enforced upon the earth and anything contrary to Christ will be dealt with without delay but when the reign begins, there will only be the godly upon the earth. It will be their progeny who will rebel against Christ at the end of the reign. All may appear to be devoted to Christ during the thousand year reign, but the end of that reign will make plain where all truly stand.

The curse of sin, while not absent, is greatly diminished under the rule of Christ. Mankind is being prepared for a final test for when he will be presented, after having lived under the direct reign of Christ and under the best conditions that he has ever known, a choice as to who to follow: Christ or Satan. Sadly, many will choose Satan. It will be at that time that Christ will be done with this present earth and replace it with a new creation in which there is neither sin, death, nor curse.

Interpreting scripture with scripture is not adding to scripture, but unless we interpret 2 Peter 3 with Revelation 20, those who insist that there is no thousand year reign to be established when Christ returns by relying only on 2 Peter 3 are going to be faced with a contradiction when confronted with Revelation 20. The only answer to this contradiction was simply that John received more revelation about the end times than Peter did.

I have not all been saying that 2 Peter 3 is indicating a future earthly millennial Kingdom as you persist in accusing me of claiming and neither do other premillennialists as a whole but John in the twentieth chapter of Revelation does and he too is looking for a NHNE but after the thousand year reign, and that is all we need for a future thousand year reign of Christ to be a foregone conclusion.

The first time the actual term a thousand is used in a figurative sense in Scripture is found in Deuteronomy 1:10-11 where Moses is seen speaking to the children of Israel, saying, “The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. (The Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!).”

Moses, here, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, employs the term ‘a thousand’ to reveal the immense prosperity he desires for the people of God. This expression is not intended to denote a precise ‘thousand’ but rather explain in a figurative sense the deep sense of spiritual increase he wishes to see bestowed on his kindred from the providential hand of the God of his fathers. This passage is not intending to limit God's blessing to an expansion of only a thousand times. Rather it is a figurative way of saying that God is the source of all increase and all blessing.

The Psalmist says, whilst exalting the Word of God in Psalm 119:72, “The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.” Here he is simply highlighting the unfathomable riches of God’s eternal truth, in stark contrast to the temporal satisfaction of worldly possessions and worldly gain. That’s why Christ asked in Mark 8:36-37, “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

Isaiah 7:22-24 says, “And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land. And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings (or, for the price of a thousand bits of silver), it shall even be for briers and thorns.”

The term “a thousand” is used here as a symbol (rather than an exact amount) to impress a scriptural truth, indicating the grave consequence of disobedience – briers and thorns would replace the many fruitful vines.

Moses again employs ‘a thousand’ in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, “Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.”

This reading expressly reveals that God is a covenant keeping God. Moses is specifically testifying to the unfailing faithfulness of God and to the continuous bountiful mercies He bestows upon His people. Psalm 119:90 says, “Thy faithfulness is unto all generations.” He is here, in some way, articulating the reality of His perpetual blessings and the enormity of His love towards His elect. The term “a thousand” is here used as an indeterminate number, evidently indicating all generations. Psalm 89:3-4 says, “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations.”

A thousand generations is therefore simply used here as a figure or symbol to represent all generations, it unquestionably cannot be limited to, or specifically relate to, a fixed number. This is highlighted when we discover the small amount of generations that have hitherto passed in this world.

Luke accurately traces the exact direct generational lineage from Adam to Christ in Luke 3:23-38, and arrives at 76 generations. Moreover, just over 2,000 years have now elapsed from Christ to our present day. Therefore, allowing approximately for a 40-year generation (2000 divided by 40), we have only reached an additional 50 generations today. We have consequently only merely exhausted around 126 generations of the said 1,000 generations, roughly 874 short of the precise 1000 generations mark, which the literalists would have us believe.

Of course, the Spirit of God does not in the slightest speak in vain or advance a lie. The generational figure simply refers to the eternal promise and extent of His mercies. A thousand generations here thus means all.

A similar symbolic passage is revealed in Psalm 105:4, 8-10, “Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore…He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.”

Here the Psalmist outlines the unchanging nature of Almighty God and reveals His unswerving faithfulness and blessing toward His spiritual seed. Such a favour is today exclusively concentrated upon the Church of Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:7-9 explains, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, “O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.”

Suppose we were required to take these three references to “a thousand generations” literally, then, it would indicates an actual earthly time period of around 40,000 years – 40 years multiplied by 1000. However, it is NOT in the slightest suggesting a thousand literal generations. It is simply telling us that the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed is true, boundless and eternal. Significantly, our last references closes with the truth that this glorious Divine pact is “an everlasting covenant.” Psalm 105:8 supports, saying, “He hath remembered his covenant for ever.”

Psalms 111:10 supports this supposition, saying, “he hath commanded his covenant for ever.”

The spiritual use of this emblematic number, representing a large indeterminate amount, and the literal fulfilment of such a promise, is also starkly seen in Judges 15:14-16 in the life of Samson, where we learn, “the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith. And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.”

Whilst it is fully possible that Samson slew exactly one thousand Philistines in this story, it is more likely that the number is used to represent an approximate amount. used it is difficult to know here whether there were exactly one thousand Philistine casualties or whether the word is used, as elsewhere, in a more general way to express a large amount. More than likely the two references to “a thousand” are to indicate the idea of a large amount. Here the reality of that promise is clearly seen.

Song of Solomon 4:4 says: “Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers.”

Are there really a thousand bucklers literally hanging on his neck?

Ten thousand is used as a popular biblical multiple in a similar sense as the number a thousand to indicate an inestimable number. This is seen in Revelation 5:11 were both numbers are used together by John in an immeasurable calculation to express great magnitude, saying, “And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.”

Both numbers are here used in an unquantifiable sum to in some way describe the redeemed of God that stand before the heavenly throne of God, who no man could possibly number. The terms “thousands” and “ten thousand” are deliberately brought together in an indefinite multiplication sum to reveal a vast immeasurable crowd.

John alludes to the same heavenly scene in Revelation 7:9-10 where John declares, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”

Daniel uses the same numerical declaration to describe the same incalculable size of the throng situated around the throne of God in heaven, in Daniel 7:9-10, saying, “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

The same concept, of unspecific multiplication, is found in Genesis chapter 24, albeit the term thousands is here coupled with “millions” in order to figuratively indicate the vast inheritance and spiritual numerical growth that would be realised in the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This reference is found in the familiar passage of Rebekah leaving home for Isaac. Here, her family bids her farewell, saying, “Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them” (vv 59-60). The family’s farewell comments, here, being in perfect prophetic accordance with the spiritual inheritance she was now entering into, by marrying Isaac – the heir to Abraham’s seed promise, and therefore a partaker of the promise.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
They confirm my reasoning. They do not show the phrase to be a figurative term. If it were so, an interpretation would be given whenever it was intended for the reader to take it figuratively and it makes no difference if the scripture says "a thousand years" or "one thousand years", the phrase is understood to mean "one thousand years" and nothing more beyond that. You are the one who is attempting to make the phrase out to be more than what it is; hence your resorting to semantics.

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, where they are undoubtedly intended as non-specific numbers used to describe God’s protection, saying, “Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee” (vv 5-7).

Both numbers are here used to signify the matchless safety that is found in Almighty God. These figures are deliberately employed to represent the tremendous protection that God bestows upon His children when faced with great adversity and unfair odds. Similarly, David declared in Psalm 3:6, “I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about.”

Interestingly, in 1 Samuel 18:6-8, we learn, “And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick. And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands. And Saul was very wroth.”

The cry of the people essentially revolved around the fact that whilst Saul as a great man of war had laudably slain many of the enemy in his days, David had vastly surpassed this in his amazing slaughter of the Philistines. Consequently, the usage of the terms thousands and ten thousands in this song sang by the handmaids of Israel was for the sole purpose of demonstrating the superior success and standing of one great soldier (David) over another (Saul). It is fair then to say that this is poetic symbolism, although it was undoubtedly fulfilled in an absolutely literal sense.

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, “How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?”

In this case, the Holy Spirit employs the numbers a thousand and ten thousand to impress upon the reader the enormity of God’s might and power. Whilst the numbers are clearly arbitrary, the principle is paramount. It is another example of indeterminacy. These numbers are simple illustrations that depict the Sovereign nature of God and the power he imputes on those that fear Him. The correlation between one and a thousand (and two and ten thousand) is done here, not to indicate precise numerical amounts, but to contrast the idea of ‘little’ arrayed against ‘much’. It demonstrates the strength and power that the most insignificant trusting believer can find in God. Notably, the word rendered chase here in the AV is the Hebrew word yirªdop meaning to pursue, to put to flight and/or to run after. This passage graphically shows us the power that agreement carries among the people of God.

God similarly said, in symbolic language, to the children of Israel in Leviticus 26:7-8, “And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.”

The same Hebrew word translated chase in Deuteronomy 32:30 is also used here to represent the exact same idea. Therefore, what we learn is that God not only defends and protects His covenant people, but that He also fights on their behalf. The story of biblical and Church history is a perpetual account of triumph over adversity – victory against amazing odds. Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, “One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you” (v 10).

The contrast between these two numbers, as distinctive as they are, is normally advanced to reveal, in some way, the matchlessness and greatness of Almighty God compared to the normal. It is also intended to represent the absolute power and many blessings that are found in God. This victory over the odds has been the gracious testimony of many godly saints throughout the years. Whilst Joshua no doubt seen the reality and literal fulfilment of this principle, the text was not intended to be limited to “a thousand” opponents. Those who fled from the advancing Israelites as they took the Promised Land were countless.

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, “one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one.” This is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number “one thousand,” albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

These two comparable readings reveal the power of God manifested through weak earthen vessels when operating under the anointing, and in the will, of God. Such texts in some way express the heavenly authority that God bestows upon His children and describes how they can overcome ‘untold’ foes through Christ who saves them. One thousand here therefore indicates ‘many’.

Marilyn C · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
They confirm my reasoning. They do not show the phrase to be a figurative term. If it were so, an interpretation would be given whenever it was intended for the reader to take it figuratively and it makes no difference if the scripture says "a thousand years" or "one thousand years", the phrase is understood to mean "one thousand years" and nothing more beyond that. You are the one who is attempting to make the phrase out to be more than what it is; hence your resorting to semantics.

One and a thousand are also brought together in a metaphorical sense in Psalm 84:9-10 to represent a similar illustrative thought as that of Deuteronomy 32:30. Using a comparable idea, although applying it to a specific measure of time, we learn, “Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.”

Comparing ‘one’ to ‘a thousand’ is common in Scripture; however, it is not simply a concept that is narrowly restricted to the subject of time, or exact time at that. This figurative statement in essence asserts that a day in the Lord’s presence is more blessed than untold ordinary ones outside of such. It in no way indicates that one (twenty-four hour) day in God’s presence exactly represents one thousand days elsewhere, such a limit would be an unfair restriction upon the meaning intended. Such a literal interpretation is at clear variance with the undoubted general usage of the phrase in Scripture and the specific import of the reading under analysis.

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 to denote the greatness of God’s providence, saying, “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.”

Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Of course there is no way that this passage suggests that Christ only owns the cattle on one thousand hills. Rather, He owns every beast on every hill, thus revealing His omnipotence. The statement reference the “thousand hills” is preceded y the introductory comment: “For every beast of the forest is mine.” This is simply presented in such a way as to express the unfathomable authority and power of the living God. It beautifully correlates with the truth expressed in 1 Corinthians 10:28, which states, “the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.”

The term “a thousand” is thus used to in some way express the nature and awesome power of Almighty God. The phrase is used to portray the Sovereignty of God and His supreme kingship over all creation. We must clearly acknowledge that the figure ‘a thousand’ is consistently and symbolically employed, throughout the Word of God, to denote an unfathomable amount or a vast period.

Even the figurative every-day statement ‘one in a thousand’ has emanated from the fountainhead of Scripture. It is found in Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 where Solomon laments, “one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”

Solomon laments over the fact that he barely found any upright man in his travels. They were the exception rather than the rule. The thought here intended is that the man under consideration is of a particular choice character, being, as it where, the pick-of-the-bunch. The usage of the numbers one and a thousand is thus employed to represent a particular truth rather than specifically describing an accurate numerical equation.

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, “If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness.” The same two common numbers are used here in the form of a contrast to simply portray the picture of a special vessel. Again, it is not the numbers that are important but the idea they represent.

As we have already discovered in our studies, the same kind of function is repeatedly afforded to the use of the term ‘ten thousand’ as is ‘a thousand’ in Scripture. It is often used in the same context and in the same way as a symbol to represent an immense figure. Thus, the Song of Solomon 5:10 declares, “My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.”

Ten thousand is here used to, in some way, portray the deep-rooted emotions that a man feels towards his sweetheart. The usage of the number ‘ten thousand’ thus indicates the idea of the deep affection of the man rather than specifically describing an exact numerical computation.

The same idea is presented in 2 Samuel 18:2-3 where David is seen preparing for battle. He tells the people, “I will surely go forth with you myself also.” To which the people responded, “Thou shalt not go forth: for if we flee away, they will not care for us; neither if half of us die, will they care for us: but now thou art worth ten thousand of us: therefore now it is better that thou succour us out of the city.”

Jesus employs the number ten thousand as a general figure in Luke 14:31 to relate the necessity of wisdom, asking, “what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with TWENTY THOUSAND?”

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, “I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.”

This passage is contrasting the infinite knowledge of God to the finite knowledge of God. This language is stating the enormous depth of God's understanding rather than limiting God to the capacity to only answer a thousand questions.

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, “Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.”

This passage is expressed in such a manner to in some way describe the great standing, wealth and supernatural power that is found in them that are God’s. God magnifies them in such a manner that the world cannot remotely comprehend. The expressions thus indicate magnitude:

A little one = a thousand
A small one = a strong nation

Paul the Apostle uses the figure ‘ten thousand’ in 1 Corinthians 4:15 to impress a spiritual truth, saying, “For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” Paul uses the figure ten thousand as a common round figure to represent a specific truth. What he was basically saying was ‘though ye have numerous instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers’

Paul uses the same principle in 1 Corinthians 14:19 to advocate wisdom in relation to the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, saying, “in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” Paul here uses the large even figure ten thousand to impress an important truth. He instructs the Corinthians that it is better to speak a little in a tongue that is understood than to speak numerous words in an unknown tongue that are not understood.

The Lord also uses this same figure, in Matthew 18:23-27, to represent the idea of a vast amount, saying, “Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.”

Matthew Henry explains that ten thousand talents represents about 60 million denarii; a denarius of which was a day’s wages. The Lord therefore advances this parable to represent the vastness of our debt to God and our complete incapability of paying it ourselves. Matthew Henry succinctly says, “The debt of sin is so great, we are not able to pay it.”

Micah asks a question in Micah 6:7, which he then answers in verse 8:

Q. “Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”

A. “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?”

Isaiah asks a similar question in Isaiah 1:11, only he substitutes the terms “thousands” and “ten thousands” with the word multitude, asking, “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” Notwithstanding, both are expressing the same thought.

What the Lord required in these two instances, as he still does today, was NOT multiple physical external sacrifices but rather real true personal spiritual internal sacrifices. The terms “thousands” and “ten thousands” in Micah therefore figuratively represents ‘many’ or ‘numerous’ or, in agreement with Isaiah, ‘multiple’.

The number a thousand is also figuratively used in Amos 5:2-4 to prophetically describe the judgment which awaited the rebellious house of natural Israel. Again, it does not denote a literal figure but rather the type, degree and enormity of judgment that would befall Israel. Amos 5:1-4 says, “The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave AN HUNDRED, and that which went forth by AN HUNDRED shall leave TEN, to the house of Israel.”

Such numbers are occasionally used in Scripture to symbolize and emphasize the magnification or the minimising of specific Divine blessings or judgment s. The descending multiples of 1,000, 100 and 10 are employed here as symbols or figures to signify an impending reality, rather than representing any precise numerical prediction. Such popular numbers are purposely chosen to, in some way, impress the considerable degree of judgment approaching. The figure ‘a thousand’ here (like the other two numbers) is thus a common figure used to describe the serious impending wrath.

The reverse idea is also employed in ascending scale to describe spiritual principles / ideas and Divine truth throughout Scripture. This is seen in the round figures of 1,000, 10,000 and 144,000. They are used as common and complete numbers and carry an undoubted symbolic usage.

Finally, we see the glorious statement in Jude 1:14-15, which speaks of that glorious all-consummating final future Advent, saying, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Here, we can determine NO specific number, only acknowledge that the term describes untold myriads of God’s blessed saints.

Marilyn C · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
.

Question: Do you believe that the Father has set His Son on Mount Zion? (Ps. 2: 6)

If yes, then where do you believe that is? (from scripture)

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Not true. During the millennial reign, sin and evil will be greatly diminished, the curse minimized, and death a rare thing in comparison to now. It does end with the biggest rebellion in history, but with that end is the creation of a new world in which no sin, evil, death, or curse are found.

Can you show me in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in Scripture where it says "during the millennial reign, sin and evil will be greatly diminished, the curse minimized, and death a rare thing in comparison to now"? I have never seen it!

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Marilyn C said:
Question: Do you believe that the Father has set His Son on Mount Zion? (Ps. 2: 6)

If yes, then where do you believe that is? (from scripture)

Yes. Now! Paul explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (Acts 13:32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvelously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave

Marilyn C · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Yes. Now! Paul explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (Acts 13:32-34).

What is majorly significant with this whole discourse from an eschatological point of view is that Paul references 2 popular Old Testament prophecies that the Jews commonly used anticipating the Messianic appearing and Davidic reign and showed how they have been fulfilled in the person of Christ and the victory of the resurrection. Here in explicit language Paul describes the realization of these Messianic predictions; the promised Messiah had already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that they had carnally imagined.

Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvelously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave

I don`t see any mention of Mount Zion? Where is that?

lsume · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Yes. I believe eternity and perfection is introduced to the NHNE when Jesus comes to remove sin, death and decay.

I’ve tasted of both and of course can’t do justice to what I experienced.

BABerean2 · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Scripture bears no witness to your unfounded assumption that there will be no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

You are using your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20 to redefine the rest of the Bible.

The words of Christ found in Matthew 25:31-46 are not my "unfounded assumption".
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the passage.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order the Premill doctrine falls apart.
Since Christ returns as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation chapter 16 we know the book is not in chronological order. The greatest earthquake in history also occurs in this chapter. If an earthquake destroys the mountains, what is happening to the planet?

The Day of the Lord is found below.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Marilyn C said:
I don`t see any mention of Mount Zion? Where is that?

Isaiah 28:16 declares: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.”

This Messianic text shows us that Christ is located within Zion. He is a figurative “precious corner stone, a sure foundation” that has been laid in Zion. Those that embrace Him enter Zion – that spiritual place of rest and safety. The spiritual application is clear for all to see. Zion (Sion) represents the kingdom of God; it represents the heavenly realm. We see support for this in our Lord’s comments to the unbelieving Jews: “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

When the New Testament references these Old Testament prophecies and applies them to the new covenant era we see the spiritual sense of Zion (Sion) today. Zion/Sion in a New Testament sense is not a natural earthly location but a spiritual abode that the people of God enter. Christ is the cornerstone of a wider spiritual building located within Zion, which believers inhabit. It is a dwelling place that the Christ-rejecter cannot enjoy.

Romans 9:30-33 states: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

In the New Testament, Christ rules over spiritual Zion. All who embrace Him reside there and enjoy the spiritual blessings that accompanies intimacy with Him. Everything in both the Old and New Testament is pointing towards Jesus Christ. It is not about physical earthly land. It is not about the Middle East. It is not about a brick temple. It is about spiritual territory. It is about a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Zion means nothing today; heavenly Zion is everything. It is not about an earthly king, but rather a heavenly king. It is not about race; it is rather about grace.

“The stone which the builders rejected” (Psalm 118:22), “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence” (Isaiah 8:14) or the “stumblingstone” (Romans 9:32-33) within Zion (Sion) is Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us that the rejection of that figurative stone was the rejection of our Savior. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows natural Gentiles (heathens) accepting that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Natural Israel, on the other hand, is shown in Romans 9:31–32 to have stumbled at Christ the rock.

Romans 9:33 broadens Zion out to “whosoever believes in him shall not be ashamed.” This includes God’s people of all nationalities. Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God have now graciously “attained to righteousness” whereas natural Israel “hath not attained to the law of righteousness.” The spiritual application is obvious.

Through Calvary, the Gentile has been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. Gentile believers unite with Jewish believers in inhabiting Zion. Salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Romans 11:26, “all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”

Paul makes a slight alteration to Isaiah’s prophecy in order to show the fulfilment of this glorious prophecy. Instead of saying that the Redeemer would “come to Zion” he significantly says Christ would “come out of Sion.” Is there a reason for this? The reason for this significant amendment was obviously because this Old Testament prophecy was no longer unfulfilled but was perfectly fulfilled in Christ’s earthly ministry

Paul takes his statement “all Israel shall be saved” from Isaiah 59:20: “as it is written.” So what does it say? Isaiah 59:20 says, “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD.”

Many Dispensationalists will highlight the last part of Romans 11:26, which promises unbroken favor upon ethnic Israelites, but seem to miss, ignore or conveniently overlook the actual company in view. It is not all natural Israelites. It is not an unqualified statement. Scripture is careful to attribute eternal favor to only those that are redeemed (whether Jew or Gentile). The reading outlines a conditional clause: “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.” “Sion” in reference to “Jacob” relates to the kingdom of God. Christ the Messiah (the deliverer) will come out from among true Israel, not natural Israel (Jacob).

1 Peter 2:3-11 adds further evidence to our enquiry: “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter does not limit Sion (Zion) to the natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel, as modern-day Dispensationalists do. Quite the opposite! He shows Zion to be a spiritual place that all believers inhabit. God’s people are often referred to in Scripture in figurative terms. In this passage, they are specifically described in building terms. The Church is described as a spiritual structure incorporating spiritual building blocks – collectively known as His body – the temple. In 1 Peter 2:6, believers are described as being “lively stones” in God’s “spiritual house,” and as being a “holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices.” This building is said to be located in “Zion,” with Christ as its “chief cornerstone.” These are the only sacrifices that are acceptable to God today.

The elect of God enter Zion upon salvation, as they embrace Christ. Peter describes Gods people as a “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” (1 Peter 2:5). Like Jesus teaching in Matthew 21:42-46, the nation mentioned is shown to be no ordinary earthly temporal carnal nation. No, but a sanctified spiritual community found throughout all nations. It is a spiritual nation that is positionally seated in heavenly places.

What is more, verse 10 shows the dominant people in view here are not Jews but Gentiles. These were a people who have previously “in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” This agrees with the constant message of the New Testament that all the people of God, whether Jew or Gentile, have taken a hold of Sion’s king and entered into a heavenly standing in Christ.

The believer is now seated in heavenly places spiritually – in the true Mount Zion. Why? Because Christ now reigns there on David’s throne. Those that have the “fear of the LORD is his treasure” and experience the “strength of salvation.” There is no need for some supposed future millennium, this age fulfils every heavenly requirement for the fulfilment of Christ’s kingly reign.

Hebrews 12:18 supports this contention, saying, “For ye are not come [plural perfect active indicative] unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come [plural perfect active indicative] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. The mount that matter today is revealed as the heavenly Sion, not temporal and earthly Jerusalem. These references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

We see a clear unfolding pattern in the New Testament: physical Jerusalem is left rejected and abandoned by God, whereas, Zion is elevated and inhabited by the people of God. Heavenly Zion is shown to be the abode of the congregation of Jesus Christ. Both Jews and Gentiles today enter the heavenly Jerusalem upon salvation. This is the spiritual abode of the righteous. This is the fulfilment of the Old Testament type and shadow. This is the place of salvation for the righteous. The Holy Spirit defines Zion in such a way that contradicts the Dispensationalism understanding of it. We are clearly not looking at some physical city in the Middle East. We are looking at the heavenly abode where God’s people belong. The dead in Christ literally reside there now; living believers are spiritually seated there now.

When a man or woman gets saved, they automatically enter the kingdom by being “born from above” (John 3:3). They obtain heavenly citizenship. Philippians 3:20 tells us, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (NKJV). Through the new birth God has “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). He has “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority secured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the people of God now walk in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Revelation 14:1-4 says, “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The first thing we note here is that it is speaking of the heavenly mount Sion. The second thing we note is that the 144,000 are “before the throne.” The third thing we note is that the 144,000 are the “redeemed from the earth.” This evidence proves that we are looking at the dead in Christ now in heavenly Jerusalem. The fourth thing we note is that this scene occurs well before the Second Advent not after. The fifth thing we see is that they are “the firstfruits unto God” not the last fruits as some would suggest.

Revelation 21:2-3, 9-14 says: “I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God … Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

The bride (“the Lamb’s wife”), is here identified with, or as, the new Jerusalem. Matthew Henry explains: “we have a large description of the church triumphant under the emblem of a city, far exceeding in riches and splendor all the cities of this world.”

It notably includes both the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. This vividly reminds us of the unity and community of God’s people through the person and work of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no separation. Both belong to the body of Christ. Both are the elect remnant of God. Both are God’s only bride. This descriptive passage confirms that the Old Testament faithful represented by “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel” enjoy equal status with the New Testament saints within the bride of Christ represented by “the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Here at the consummation, the people of God throughout all ages are united in Christ for all eternity. The new Jerusalem is not merely a physical place, it describes a spiritual people. We are looking at faithful Israel through the ages.

Speaking of the clear connection between the “new Jerusalem” and “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel,” John Gill tells us that this is “not literal, but mystical Israel, whom God has chosen to salvation, Christ has redeemed by his blood, and the Spirit calls by his grace; denoting that all, and each of these, have a right to enter into the new Jerusalem, and will be admitted there, and none but they.”

This is in keeping with the New Testament revelation of truth, which constantly shows an overlap between the Old Testament congregation of God and the New Testament one. That is why we have the Hebrew terms associated with the assembly of God under the new covenant.

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. Mount Zion in the Old Testament was a type of the true Mount Zion in glory. Jerusalem is the same. David’s throne also was a mere imperfect type of Israel's true heavenly king. The kings of Israel were a rebellious fleshly idea. However, God used them as a shadow of His heavenly kingship. Why would Christ yield to the permissive idea of man and reign in physical Jerusalem? He is reigning now on David’s throne (since the resurrection) in heaven.

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine.

The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

The phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text.

Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavors starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.

Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomizing the friendliness and hospitality of the place.

This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.

Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’” (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).

People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand but be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.

It is a fact that a thousand is used as much in Scripture to refer to approximate amounts as it is literal ones. The phrase “a thousand” is repeatedly used by the Holy Spirit to describe an indefinite figure/period. Like 10, 100 and 10,000, a thousand is commonly used as an even round figure to represent New Testament truths. Revelation 20, a chapter in the most symbolic book in the Bible, fits this pattern effortlessly. To obtain a broad understanding of the biblical usage of a thousand (even if for the sake of argument it meant 1,000) it is sensible to also study the number 10,000, as both are used in a similar figurative manner throughout Scripture. Involving both in the same study better illustrates the symbolic usage of the number 1,000. One soon discovers, the terms a thousand and ten thousand are employed many times in Scripture, in varying figurative senses, to describe large numbers or vast periods of time. The expressions are also commonly used to symbolically describe great pictures of immeasurable vastness. Notwithstanding, the term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17.

Few will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature.

So, when 3000 souls were saved at Pentecost it just meant perhaps 30? When Jesus fed 5000, it was only about 50? The NT writers were just using hyperbole?

Are you saying the NT by God’s design cannot be more precise and specific than the generalities of the OT?

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
So, when 3000 souls were saved at Pentecost it just meant perhaps 30? When Jesus fed 5000, it was only about 50? The NT writers were just using hyperbole?

Are you saying the NT by God’s design cannot be more precise and specific than the generalities of the OT?

Who is saying that? No. But even these were likely generalizations. The Bible does that all the time. We all do it. If there was 2935, we would generalize 3000, or 4987, we would say 5000.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine.

Finally you admit that Revelation 20 is the basis for the belief in a coming thousand year reign. If it were not for Revelation 20, we would not even be having this debate. Interpreting scripture with scripture is what is needed in order to bring the best clarity we can to a matter but can only be done when we interpret scripture with other scripture pertaining to the same matter at hand.

If heaven and earth are supposed to melt away in fervent heat on the day of the Lord, why then did John tell us that Christ was going to reign upon the earth a thousand years before hand? Peter doesn't give us that answer, but both agree that this present earth will pass away and be replaced with a new one. The other Apostles, including the writers of the Gospels say that the Day of the Lord is the time of God's judgment and wrath upon the entire world, but John says that it is not just a time of wrath, but also time when Christ and His saints rule over sinful man before the final judgment, the passing away of this present universe, and the creation of a new Heaven and a new earth. John was simply given more revelation about all that is to take place before that final day of judgment than the other Apostles were.

sovereigngrace said:
Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

How can the spiritual principles that they are supposed to represent be impressed upon the reader when the scriptures do not even tell us what spiritual ideas those numbers represent? And common usage of daily language is no basis for interpreting scripture.

sovereigngrace said:
We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.

Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomizing the friendliness and hospitality of the place.

Scripture is to be interpreted within its given context only and by no other means. And who knows? You might actually come across someone who claims that they literally have a thousand things to do that day, and find yourself wondering as to how they would ever have time to complete a thousand tasks in one day. And depending on the size of the Dublin citizenry, one could very well literally receive a thousand welcomes depending on who they are and how well received they are by the populace.

sovereigngrace said:
This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.

Hitler would have loved the third-Reich to have lasted a thousand years. Thank God it only lasted a few short years.

sovereigngrace said:
Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’” (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).

For all anyone knew that the time, the British Empire and its Commonwealth could very well have persisted for a thousand years but due to a number of different reasons, it did not and has been immensely reduced from its former glory.

sovereigngrace said:
People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand but be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.

The reason why people concentrate upon the actual figure is because scripture does not present numbers to be understood in any other way than in a literal sense. If numbers were meant to be symbolic at any given time, the scriptures would tell us what those numbers mean. They don't save for one exception and that is in Revelation 13 regarding the number 666 which represents the name of a certain man which, to the best of anyone's knowledge, no one has been able to figure out.

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 20, a chapter in the most symbolic book in the Bible, fits this pattern effortlessly. To obtain a broad understanding of the biblical usage of a thousand (even if for the sake of argument it meant 1,000) it is sensible to also study the number 10,000, as both are used in a similar figurative manner throughout Scripture. Involving both in the same study better illustrates the symbolic usage of the number 1,000. One soon discovers, the terms a thousand and ten thousand are employed many times in Scripture, in varying figurative senses, to describe large numbers or vast periods of time. The expressions are also commonly used to symbolically describe great pictures of immeasurable vastness. Notwithstanding, the term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17.

Few will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature.

While there is symbolism in the book of Revelation, a great deal of the book is presented in literal terms. Whenever symbolism is presented or implied, an interpretation is given. If context presents itself as literal, then it is to be taken as such. If the context is presented as figurative or symbolic

BABerean2 · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If heaven and earth are supposed to melt away in fervent heat on the day of the Lord, why then did John tell us that Christ was going to reign upon the earth a thousand years before hand?

Which earth?

What part of the text says Christ will reign on this sin-cursed earth for 1,000 years, after His Second Coming?

=============================

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
All you are providing me with is personal opinion and natural reasoning. That is not enough. Where is your biblical evidence for the same? Nowhere! This is typical of Premil. It is essentially all wild speculations and elaborate theories. It has no hard solid facts. It has zero corroboration for its opinion of Rev 20. That is why the reader should swiftly reject it.

The context of Revelation 20 speaks for itself. It is you who has yet to prove that the thousand year reign under Christ is anything but a thousand year reign. You insist that mortals and immortals will not be interacting with each other when Christ returns to set up His reign upon the earth. Where is your biblical evidence for that? You have none. Just a baseless assumption that you impose upon the text. That Christ and His saints are ruling and reigning on the earth when He returns suggests that they have subjects over whom they are ruling. Who are they ruling over if not mortal men? That Revelation 20 says that there are multitudes of people on the earth at the end of the thousand year reign should be a clear indicator that people have been marrying and producing children during that time. Don't see what further proof you need than that.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Which earth?

What part of the text says Christ will reign on this sin-cursed earth for 1,000 years, after His Second Coming?

Revelation chapter 20 tells you all that you need to know and which earth it will be, not to mention with Christ reigning on the earth, sin and the curse will be greatly diminished in comparison to now.

BABerean2 said:
Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

You already challenged me with this one in your last response post. My answers to it will be no different.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

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