20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Does the Sixth Seal of Revelation 6:12-17, occur at the Return of Jesus?

Revelation 7:1-3 After that, [the Sixth seal] I saw four angels holding back the winds. Another angel called to them: Do not punish the earth further until the mark of God is set upon His servants.

If you think that the Sixth Seal happens at the Return, then what are the further punishments referring to? They are obviously the next sequence: the Great Tribulation Trumpet and Bowl punishments.

Beware of the curse in Rev.22:19, if you take away from the Words of this Book, God will take away your share in the Tree of Life.


Isaiah 64:1-11 [Before the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath.] Why, Lord do You not tear asunder the heavens and cause the mountains to shake, fires to blaze and water to boil, then Your Name would be known and nations would tremble before You. Lord, look upon Your people, those who strive to do right, do not be angry beyond measure. Isaiah 34:2-4

After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath;
You surprised us with awesome things, when You acted the mountains shook.
Now, Your Holy city is ruined and burned by fire, all of Zion is a desolation, all that we treasured has been destroyed. Jeremiah 9:9-11

Although Jerusalem has been destroyed before, there has never been a destruction as described, in fact as virtually all the buildings are built of stone, it will require an extreme event to fulfil these prophecies.
Why would the Lord destroy the whole country, including the Third Temple at His Return?

sovereigngrace said:

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as Rev 19, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

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Your wrong belief of the Sixth Seal happening at Jesus Return, is totally refuted by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who remain alive will be gathered to meet Jesus in the clouds.... Matthew 24:30-31
Revelation 20:4-8 also makes it clear that there are living mortal people, present in the Millennium.

The answer to 'who will be able to stand? Rev 6:17, is: Those who the Lord will protect on that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 97:10-12, +

sovereigngrace said:

(1) Anyone who contends that 2 Peter 3 supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of the destructive nature of the passage. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

(2) The Premillennialial paradigm again collapses on the flawed notions that “the day of the Lord” lasts a literal 1,000 years, and that the destruction predicted in the narrative only occurs at the very end of this day, 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ. Notwithstanding, this undoubted forced interpretation of “the day of the Lord” is totally demolished when one realises that the world must therefore be completely destroyed before Satan has his opportunity to “deceive the nations” for “a little season” at the end, after the millennium. There will manifestly be no world or wicked left for Satan to gather Gog and Magog “as the sand of the sea” against “the camp of the saints.” This again only serves to support the belief that this passage can only be fully and completely realised at the second coming of the Lord, and in the Amillennial position. For them to take 2 Peter 3 as it reads (and means) would totally destroy their beloved doctrine.

(3) Placing the destruction of the world 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ, totally nullifies the whole import of this reading, ignoring the plain warning of the text, the undoubted unexpected all-consummating earth-destroying nature of this judgment and its unquestionable focus upon them that are caught unprepared. 2 Peter 3:10 succinctly says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

(4) The Premillennialist totally ignores the fact that the solemn message embodied within this reading is solely directed towards the “scoffers” in “the last days” that foolishly question the reality of the impending return of Christ. It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.

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I am pretty sure Peter was addressing the scoffers who were ignorant of the Lord's Day. He likened them to those who cannot see God at work in creation. Even now science claims God has nothing to do with this material physical existence. Yet, amill agree that God is also finished with the physical existence. Why so dead set on refusing God His Lord's Day? God claims to be the beginning and end of all things, even creation.

Are you not saying that for the last 1990 years we have been observing an indefinite Lord's Day set apart as Holy unto God? According to you, the church failed and apostated the Lord's Day worse than those scoffers in the OT.

The point about the Lord's Day is that God is Sovereign. God did not just create this earth for sin. God allowed sin in His Longsuffering Plan. GOD even planned the whole redemption, and never required, other than labor, any thing from humanity. God would redeem even His creation in the end. Yet it seems the church is now scoffing the Sovereignty of God and His final Sabbath of His creation. The pattern about this physical Sabbath was instituted in creation week itself, before sin was even a factor.

The Sabbath was not part of the spiritual redemption, and the physical Sabbath cannot be thrown out with the Law. It was pre-sin, and labor was the Law portion that is and will be dissolved. Mark 2:27 points out that the Sabbath was not a requirement, but a blessing. It was to be a reminder of God Goodness and Holiness. Unless you can provide a verse that states the Sabbath is just another time period, where sin is allowed free reign, one is just making a mockery of God's creation as God intended it to be. Claiming it is concurrent with this sin age, does not set it apart as Holy.

The last 5990 years have not been historically just an indefinite period of time, like millions of years of evolutionary change, without God's involvement. God came Himself as the Atonement on the Cross. That was the spiritual redemption. The soon coming Millennium will be the physical redemption. The Sabbath was set up even before sin and the punishment of knowing good and evil.

The Sabbath was never a part of sin, but to be God's Blessing upon His creation. It was also never a part of the Law. It was only a Remberance and forced rest upon humans set out to kill themselves by nature of knowing good and evil. God will not remove free will from those billions of humans after living on earth for 1000 years, just like God gave a perfect Adam free will to disobey God.

The Millennium does not end on a sour note because of sin. Sin was over at the Second Coming. Satan wants humans to think we have no free will, but are just God’s puppets. Except free will is the only thing going in his favor to turn even blessed humans to his side, because we were created to choose God freely without coercion. Satan's last act will be the destruction of billions who naturally have the free will to choose what they believe, just like amill are free to believe a Coming Millennium does not even exist.

Eschatology is not a matter of Salvation, but it seems a hard fight to prove one chapter in the Bible can be that misunderstood. Most people take it as written. No private interpretation neccessary.

sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 6:13-14 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as Rev 19, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

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Neither God nor John in Revelation 6 declare it is the end. It is just the beginning of the end. The rhetorical question was asked by those "left behind". This question is answered in Revelation 16:14-16

14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War of the Great Day of Adonai-Tzva’ot.
15 (“Look! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their clothes clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly put to shame!”)
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.

Remember back in Chapter 6, the surprise that no one was expecting? Most today think it happens in chapter 16. Those people are going to ask that rhetorical question that they then get answered, when they are standing on the battlefield along with Satan. Oh that is right, "we asked who can endure to the end, and guess what?" With Satan's help and that mark 666 we are now waiting for that thief in the night moment that happened back in the 6th seal. The Second Coming already happened in chapter 6. God on the throne and the Lamb by His side, was not a parenthetical in chapter 6. All those humans who hid then, are about to be killed at Armageddon. They are all listed the same in chapter 6, and now understand in chapter 16, they will soon be dead.

Yes, the warning has been in place since the 1st century. It will be too late to change any thing standing with Satan at Megiddo. Congratulations, you made it through the trumpets, the thunders, Satan's beheadings, the bowels of God's wrath. Now you can face Christ as your judge. The answer to that rhetorical question at the 6th seal will be really important now. Did we not call you Lord, or do many things in your name? When do those foolish virgins present themselves? Post trib, at Armageddon. Obviously! Where in chapter 16, does God seperate those on the battlefield, who do not get killed? Seriously? God comes unprepared to a battle, and has to choose who He is going to fight?

sovereigngrace said:

How do you deduce that? You have a habit of making these sweeping statements and attaching references that give absolutely no support to your claim

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I totally refuted your contention that there is no one left alive on earth, when Jesus Returns.
Your statement that my supporting scriptures are not relevant to my case, is not right and unless you can show they aren't, then your accusations have no validity.

sovereigngrace said:

No one survives it. It is there but you ignore it. The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This shows that the second coming is “the end.”

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The Lord's Day is the end. The Second Coming is the beginning, then the separation of sheep from the goats. The wheat is harvested and the tares endure 3.5 years of Satan's control. Then the battle of Armageddon. All are killed and baptized by fire. Some are resurrected to eternal life on earth. Some to eternal damnation in Death. Are you a sheep or wheat?

sovereigngrace said:

I do not know any one else who believes this. This is clearly an invention of your own mind.

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Of course no one accepts God’s Word as written. They have been taught 1900 years of human theology. I guess if you say so, I am the only one not decieved by Satan. The Second Coming happens at the 6th seal. It says God on the throne and the Lamb is present. You claim this is the same event repeated over and over. It still happens before Satan is introduced in chapter 12, no? Is Satan introduced prior to chapter 6? Is Satan introduced by Paul in 1 Thessalonians or 1 Corinthians before his popular "End time scenarios"? Paul explains it has not happened yet. Has it happened since Paul?

Timtofly said:

You claim this is the same event repeated over and over. It still happens before Satan is introduced in chapter 12, no? Is Satan introduced prior to chapter 6? Is Satan introduced by Paul in 1 Thessalonians or 1 Corinthians before his popular "End time scenarios"? Paul explains it has not happened yet. Has it happened since Paul?

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The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson which contains the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ. Based on Revelation 1:20 the word "stars" is used as a symbol of the angels in the book of Revelation.

Are you saying Christ has not been born, and has not ascended to heaven yet?


Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (This was a part of the vision given to Joseph.)
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


This text is about the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15, and Genesis 12:3, and found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1. See what Paul said in Galatians 3:16.


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BABerean2 said:

The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson which contains the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ. Based on Revelation 1:20 the word "stars" is used as a symbol of the angels in the book of Revelation.

Are you saying Christ has not been born, and has not ascended to heaven yet?


Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (This was a part of the vision given to Joseph.)
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


This text is about the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15, and Genesis 12:3, and found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1. See what Paul said in Galatians 3:16.

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There is a difference in the women giving birth and hiding from Satan. Are you talking about the time when Joseph took them to Egypt? I said, yes, Satan is not introduced until after the 7th seal. Cause there is no need for the woman to hide until after the 7th seal.

sovereigngrace said:

Each passage you mention is climactic. It is you that creates survivors where they do not exist.

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How do you get survivors out of DEAD DEAD DEAD!!! ALL ARE DEAD!

Timtofly said:

There is a difference in the women giving birth and hiding from Satan. Are you talking about the time when Joseph took them to Egypt? I said, yes, Satan is not introduced until after the 7th seal. Cause there is no need for the woman to hide until after the 7th seal.

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The beginning of chapter 12 is a vision about the seed promise.
Joseph did take Mary and the man-child to Egypt to escape Satan's effort to destroy the Messiah.

The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead is in Revelation 11:15-18.
This passage is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.

The beginning of chapter 12 starts all over again.


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BABerean2 said:

The beginning of chapter 12 is a vision about the seed promise.
Joseph did take Mary and the man-child to Egypt to escape Satan's effort to destroy the Messiah.

The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead is in Revelation 11:15-18.
This passage is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.

The beginning of chapter 12 starts all over again.

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Revelation 12 introduces Satan into the Narrative. It does not start "all over again".

Timtofly said:

Revelation 12 introduces Satan into the Narrative. It does not start "all over again".

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Go back and read Genesis 3:15, if you do not think the story starts over again at the beginning of Revelation 12.

What was the promise God made to Satan?

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Timtofly said:

How do you get survivors out of DEAD DEAD DEAD!!! ALL ARE DEAD!

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There are living mortals in the Millennium. Only after that is Death no more. Revelation 21:4

BABerean2 said:

The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead is in Revelation 11:15-18.
This passage is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.

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Yes, Rev 11:15-18 is a vision of the Return. NOT the actual coming of Jesus at all, as there is more to happen before that.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 12 introduces Satan into the Narrative. It does not start "all over again".

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Right, there is no contrived 'recapitulations'.