The "mistaken identity" theory

JohnClay · Sep 5, 2020

This might be an original theory.... in the "Mythical Jesus Vs Historical Jesus" group no-one had heard of this theory before...

Mark 6:14-16

King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Others said, “He is Elijah.”
And still others claimed, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago.”
But when Herod heard this, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised from the dead!”

So the existence of Jesus was seen as proof of John the Baptist being raised from the dead.... so someone seeing an ordinary man could be seen as proof that Jesus was raised from the dead....

1 Corinthians 15:6 talks about Jesus appearing to 500 people.... mythicists sometimes say that that just involved a mass hallucination... I think the following event is relevant:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

It involves an apparent sighting of Jesus by 6000 people in 1988... you might think the photo doesn't look like Jesus but with the 500 they didn't have any photos to go by.

The man on the road to Emmaus in Luke 20 and the gardener in John 20 looked like ordinary men then they were thought to be Jesus. I thought Jesus had a glorified body... Mark 6 shows that the person doesn't need to look like the person to be considered that person. So even if the gardener looked nothing like Jesus it could be seen as being Jesus by people of that era.

So there are many reasons to believe in the mistaken identity theory... though these reasons are normally just ignored and skeptics usually prefer the "mass hallucination" theory.

I consider myself to be an extremely liberal Christian and I think this might be how Jesus was able to appear to people after his death (and sometimes through hallucinations like with Paul)

Rachel20 · Sep 6, 2020

It would seem a glorified body entails the ability to change form (Mark 16:12). Even the angels have the ability to appear as men (Hebrews 13:2), though they are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Outside of scripture, I am skeptical of all claims of Jesus appearing though, since he himself warned of this (Matthew 24:5). His post-resurrection appearances were only to believers, and he himself said unbelieving Israel would see him no more till they said "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" Matthew 23:39 - a prerequisite for his return, also suggested in Hosea 5:15

JohnClay · Sep 6, 2020

Rachel20 said:
It would seem a glorified body entails the ability to change form (Mark 16:12). Even the angels have the ability to appear as men (Hebrews 13:2), though they are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Outside of scripture, I am skeptical of all claims of Jesus appearing though, since he himself warned of this (Matthew 24:5). His post-resurrection appearances were only to believers, and he himself said unbelieving Israel would see him no more till they said "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" Matthew 23:39 - a prerequisite for his return, also suggested in Hosea 5:15

In Mark 6 where people think Jesus is someone else he didn't have a glorified body... his ordinary body was mistaken for John the Baptist, etc.

You're saying that Jesus can "change form". John 20 doesn't seem to say that Jesus transformed from an unknown man (the gardener) to Jesus... if he changed form it should have said that.

Luke 24:31 says "Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight."

That seems to say their perception of Jesus changed - not that he changed his form....

BTW the verse about Jesus changing form (Mark 16:12) was added later... maybe based on other parts of the gospels...

Rachel20 · Sep 6, 2020

JohnClay said:
You're saying that Jesus can "change form". John 20 doesn't seem to say that Jesus transformed from an unknown man (the gardener) to Jesus... if he changed form it should have said that.

It's a mystery. On the one hand, you have Jesus appearing in the midst of a cube without coming through any of its sides suggesting he's operating in higher dimension(s) (John 20), but then telling Thomas to touch him as though he's physical. I'm not suggesting he changes from one man to another, but that he is spirit who can manifest physically as he chooses. Why does John suggest we have to become "like him" to see him "as he really is"? 1 John 3:2

cloudyday2 · Sep 6, 2020

Something I have wondered about is the disciple Thomas. In the Acts of Thomas ( Acts of Thomas - Wikipedia ) it is clear that the author imagined him to be an identical twin of Jesus. That possibility has made me wonder about resurrection sightings and the fact that Thomas was not present when the resurrected Jesus appeared to other disciples. I suppose that is speculating a lot from the name "twin".

That would be a special case of your mistaken identity idea.

JohnClay · Sep 6, 2020

Rachel20 said:
It's a mystery. On the one hand, you have Jesus appearing in the midst of a cube without coming through any of its sides suggesting he's operating in higher dimension(s) (John 20), but then telling Thomas to touch him as though he's physical.

John was written later and I think it is less likely to be historical... though my personal experiences related to the Bible were normally related to John...

Hearing songs with seemingly supernatural significance

I'm not suggesting he changes from one man to another, but that he is spirit who can manifest physically as he chooses.

If he was a spirit I would have thought he would look like the transfiguration version... if he wasn't physically changing into different men I wonder why people thought he was someone else? (someone else who is an ordinary man)

Why does John suggest we have to become "like him" to see him "as he really is"? 1 John 3:2

Well there was mistaken identity related to Jesus multiple times... that suggests we might also not be recognised...

JohnClay · Sep 6, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Something I have wondered about is the disciple Thomas. In the Acts of Thomas ( Acts of Thomas - Wikipedia ) it is clear that the author imagined him to be an identical twin of Jesus.

Interesting... I didn't know that...

That possibility has made me wonder about resurrection sightings and the fact that Thomas was not present when the resurrected Jesus appeared to other disciples. I suppose that is speculating a lot from the name "twin".

Yeah I guess it might be even less historical than Mark, etc?
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
Apparently it was written in 200-225 AD

That would be a special case of your mistaken identity idea.

I think it is a later idea that for someone to be mistaken for someone else they need to look identical.... though I've shown that that didn't need to be the case in the gospels...

Rachel20 · Sep 6, 2020

JohnClay said:
... that suggests we might also not be recognised...

Paul seemed to believe we would recognize each other (1 Corinthians 13:12). Perhaps it's recognition by some other means (presence/soul)? Peter, James, and John recognized Moses and Elijah even though they'd never seen them before.

JohnClay · Sep 6, 2020

BTW
Substitution hypothesis - Wikipedia
"...The substitution hypothesis or twin hypothesis states that the sightings of a risen Jesus are explained not by physical resurrection, but by the existence of a different person, a twin or lookalike who could have impersonated Jesus after his death, or died in the place of Jesus on the cross..."

But I'm saying it doesn't need to look just like Jesus

eleos1954 · Sep 6, 2020

JohnClay said:
This might be an original theory.... in the "Mythical Jesus Vs Historical Jesus" group no-one had heard of this theory before...

Mark 6:14-16

So the existence of Jesus was seen as proof of John the Baptist being raised from the dead.... so someone seeing an ordinary man could be seen as proof that Jesus was raised from the dead....

1 Corinthians 15:6 talks about Jesus appearing to 500 people.... mythicists sometimes say that that just involved a mass hallucination... I think the following event is relevant:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

It involves an apparent sighting of Jesus by 6000 people in 1988... you might think the photo doesn't look like Jesus but with the 500 they didn't have any photos to go by.

The man on the road to Emmaus in Luke 20 and the gardener in John 20 looked like ordinary men then they were thought to be Jesus. I thought Jesus had a glorified body... Mark 6 shows that the person doesn't need to look like the person to be considered that person. So even if the gardener looked nothing like Jesus it could be seen as being Jesus by people of that era.

So there are many reasons to believe in the mistaken identity theory... though these reasons are normally just ignored and skeptics usually prefer the "mass hallucination" theory.

I consider myself to be an extremely liberal Christian and I think this might be how Jesus was able to appear to people after his death (and sometimes through hallucinations like with Paul)

Visions involve seeing things that have a basis in reality outside of the mind. A hallucination is a creation within ones own mind.

regarding paul (such as on the road to Damascus) He experienced the realty of the Lord.

cloudyday2 · Sep 6, 2020

JohnClay said:
Yeah I guess it might be even less historical than Mark, etc?
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
Apparently it was written in 200-225 AD

The Acts of Thomas was written much later, but Thomas literally means "twin" and all four gospels list Thomas as a disciple.

Isn't it odd to call somebody "twin"? It implies that Thomas was the twin brother to somebody noteworthy. For example, if Barak Obama had a twin brother then news reports might refer to him as "Obama's twin" rather than "Joe Obama". So who was the noteworthy twin brother of Thomas?

There are several apostles who are known to be brothers and could not be the twin of Thomas:
- Simon (Peter) and Andrew
- James and John
- Philip and Bartholomew (maybe not brothers but mentioned as a pair)

Thomas was the twin of somebody. Maybe he was the twin of Jesus. On the other hand, it seems that opponents of Christianity would have suspected a resurrection ruse if Jesus had a twin, and there would have been some Christian apologists explaining why Thomas was not part of a trick.

JohnClay · Sep 6, 2020

Rachel20 said:
....Outside of scripture, I am skeptical of all claims of Jesus appearing though, since he himself warned of this (Matthew 24:5)....

Maybe the author of Matthew had Jesus say that because there were a lot of people claiming to be Jesus (like the sightings of Jesus soon after his death).... it was even said that Jesus ascended into Heaven yet there were still more appearances of Jesus....

Rachel20 · Sep 7, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
... Thomas literally means "twin" and all four gospels list Thomas as a disciple.

It kind of begs the question - if he was called Thomas because he had a twin, what was his twin called? I would be curious if the names of any non-believing siblings of any of the other disciples were mentioned, or were they only mentioned when they themselves were believers? It seems that making someones name remembered would be an honor from God (Psalms 45:17). We're never told the name of the rich man who refused the Lord's calling (Matthew 19:22).

Rachel20 · Sep 7, 2020

JohnClay said:
... it was even said that Jesus ascended into Heaven yet there were still more appearances of Jesus....

Which ascension? Acts 1:11 or the one Jesus referred to in John 20:17?

cloudyday2 · Sep 7, 2020

Rachel20 said:
It kind of begs the question - if he was called Thomas because he had a twin, what was his twin called? I would be curious if the names of any non-believing siblings of any of the other disciples were mentioned, or were they only mentioned when they themselves were believers? It seems that making someones name remembered would be an honor from God (Psalms 45:17). We're never told the name of the rich man who refused the Lord's calling (Matthew 19:22).

Maybe the twin of Thomas died as a child? Maybe calling the surviving brother "twin" was a way to ensure remembrance of the brother who died?

The Acts of Thomas gives a fuller name "The acts of Judas Thomas the apostle are completed, which he did in India, fulfilling the commandment of him that sent him. Unto whom be glory, world without end. Amen." ( Acts of Thomas - Wikipedia ). Although the Acts of Thomas was composed centuries later, it is possible that it records an accurate remembrance of the apostle's full name.

JohnClay · Sep 7, 2020

Rachel20 said:
Which ascension? Acts 1:11 or the one Jesus referred to in John 20:17?

I thought they're both referring to the same event...

The "mistaken identity" theory

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