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The second part of TULIP that I'm defending today is Unconditional Election. The differences between the reformed view of Unconditional Election and the Arminian view of Conditional Election are:
Arminian View: God's election is based on man's foreseen faith. Before the foundation of the world, God chose certain individuals for salvation based on His foreseeing that they would, of their own free will, choose Christ.
Reformed (Calvinist) View: God's election is unconditional. God's choice of certain individuals for salvation was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, but was based solely in His good and sovereign will.
Or if you're interested in a more in depth explanation of the Reformed View you can look at Piper's explanation of Unconditional Election on his website here.
It is obviously the Reformed view that I am going to try to prove today. Like my Total Depravity thread I will be using the ESV to prove my points. Alright, lets get started. To prove Unconditional Election, we first have to prove Election in the first place. There isn't one single Christian denomination or sect even that denies that we are not Elected by God in some way, shape, or form. So, everyone should agree with me on my points. To prove Election we have to start with the book of Genesis and with God's promise to Abraham.
God's promise to Abraham starts in Genesis 12:2-3 it says:
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
To fully understand what God meant in this promise I recommend reading Calvin's commentary on the Genesis 2-3 you can find it here.
If you don't want to read several paragraphs of text from a man who lived almost 500 years ago the summary of it is that when God is referring to the name of Abraham he's referring to Christ. So I will bless Christ and make his name great, so that he will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless Christ, and him who dishonors Christ I will curse and in Christ all families (God later clarifies in Genesis 22:18 as Nations) of the earth will be blessed.
So through Christ all Nations of the Earth will be blessed. Later God said that Abraham's offspring will come from every nation. So there is at LEAST one saved, God chosen person from every nation that has ever existed since Adam and Eve's time, including Adam and Eve themselves. Not too many Christians disagree with this teaching but, I had to prove Election in the first place in order to prove that our election is Unconditional. If you're interested in extra verses/studying on Election I will be glad to give them to you through PM or in the actual thread. I'm trying to make this OP as short as possible and not as long as my previous one. Now, where in the bible does it say that our Election is unconditional rather than Conditional? I'll only be giving one piece of scripture since I'm almost out of time but if you're interested in more scriptures, PM me or ask for them in the thread. Please Quote my OP if you're going to ask for more scriptures because if this topic explodes like the last one, odds are I'm not going to have time to answer your question. My last thread got to over 10 pages long and I couldn't possibly reply to everybody. Okay the one scripture I'm going to give to defend Unconditional Election is the one every Calvinist will use, however I'll fully explain exactly what is meant by Paul in the passage. It is of course, Romans 8:28-30.
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
These elected people that Paul is talking about are people chosen by God not people who chose God. You may think you chose God but in fact, the opposite is true. God chose YOU. To see my full argument on this subject you can wait for my topics on the 5 points of Calvinism when they all come out and read the scriptures I give as defense to this subject. Specifically: Irresistible grace.
Anyway, several things are clear from Romans 8:28-30. One: these people that are being called HAVE to be born again eternally secure children of God. Why? Because of the chain of Salvation Paul gives. Those who he called, he justified. Justification is where we are declared "not guilty by God." those who he justified, he also glorified. Glorification is when Jesus Christ returns and gives us a new body. This new body will be perfect in everywhere. Therefore, this passage also supports Perseverance of the Saints, but I’ll be talking about that in another thread.
When's the last time you've heard of somebody being called a Goat by Jesus Christ [(citation)] being declared Justified, and Glorified? No, they're raised on the second resurrection to Eternal Death. People who are declared Justified and later are Glorified are the very sheep of God. Nothing can take their salvation away because lets not even use the arguments of Christ, Yahweh, David, Solomon, All of the Apostles who wrote scripture including James, or the even the arguments of the writer of Hebrews. Lets just focus on the argument made by Paul in Romans. How can a person who is declared "not guilty" by God lose his salvation? Even if theoretically this chosen person by God lost their faith in Christ? (It's an impossibility but, I'll get to that in my last thread). But, lets say for the sake of argument they did lose their salvation. How can that person later be GLORIFIED (which is the last step to our salvation)? Those glorified don't enter hell. To claim such is ludicrous and would be blasphemy to the utter most core. No, those who are chosen by God are saved from the moment of faith, throughout eternity. As the Bible says from the beginning of the book to the end. To claim that we can lose our salvation is to call God and everyone who wrote the Bible a liar.
Also, what did Paul mean by foreknowledge? This is the main argument between Arminians and Calvinists. To prove which argument is true, we have to go to the Bible and what the Bible defines foreknowledge as, not what mankind says foreknowledge is. (Otherwise, we'd be ignoring Sola Scriptura, a key point of Protestantism.) There are a few passages I want you to look at.
Amos 3:2
"You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
If we take this passage in an Arminian definition (or literally) it would mean that God only knew about the Israelites out of ALL the nations of the Earth because well, that's what the passage says if we use the English definition of knowledge. So, he had no clue about me or you, he only had knowledge of the Israelites. Is this the case? Of course not! God knows everything! To claim that God doesn't know everything is to deny scripture and to deny basic human common sense.
So what can being known mean? It means God chose to set His favor and affection only upon Israel and the Descenants of Abraham out of the all the families of the earth. This is portrayed for us in the word ‘know’ throughout the entire Bible. To know someone is to set a very intimate affection on them. This is why the Bible refers to Adam and Eve’s sexual intimacy as ‘knowing’ in Genesis 4:1. Adam didn't know Eve as in "I know who you are. I know that you are my wife...etc." he knew her on a much deeper, much more intimate level.
I'm not saying that knowing is always sexual, I'm saying that knowledge in the Bible is a deep and unsearchable love for someone. It's to set favor upon that person and that person alone. We are more loved by God than we will ever realize. Adam loved Eve more than she would ever realize. And Eve loved Adam more than Adam would ever realize.
So what does “foreknowledge” mean? It does not refer to God’s actual knowledge of anything beforehand (though He in fact does have that knowledge). Rather “foreknowledge” refers to God’s setting His affection upon His people before the world was made. God intimately chose and knows His people, just as a husband intimately chose and knows his wife. It is true that this foreknowing is the foundation of predestination, and the Biblical definition of it makes this so much clearer.
Thus, if we were to translate the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge into Romans 8:29 it would read like this, “For those whom God intimately set His affection upon beforehand, He also predestined…” This meaning is in sync with the rest of the Bible and is the reformed definition of foreknowledge. God foreknowing and choosing us, is more deep and more intimate than we will EVER realize.
Also to claim that God foreknew all of his sheep because he knew that they would accept him, that would be a huge and massive DUH. Of COURSE he knew they would accept him! He CHOSE them! He's God and knows EVERYTHING! Honestly? If God looked into the future before the foundation of the world, he wouldn't see people accepting him. He would see no man on Earth being saved and mankind without hope. Why do you think God came to Earth to die for us? The Bible says that before God changes our hearts, we are NOTHING. We are by nature, sinners! Even after God changes us we are still sinners because we are sinners by nature. We are more sinners than we will ever realize, and are loved more than we will ever know. We cannot do good even if we tried, to accept God is an impossibility without the interference of God. The Bible says this time and time again (See my other thread [on Total Depravity] for scriptures). But yet, somehow we are able to accept Christ on our own despite being a Totally Depraved, Totally Sinful creation? Give me a break. To claim that is ludicrous in the highest extent.
If you're going to reply to this thread, can you please make it about the subject at hand and not just an all around debate about whether or not Reformed theology itself is true? Thank you. It's not that I don't have defenses for those arguments and don't love debating theology, I'd just much rather focus on one topic at a time. If you're interested in debating the first point of Calvinism (Total Depravity) you can go to my first thread on TULIP here. The other three threads I have not made yet.
Arminian View: God's election is based on man's foreseen faith. Before the foundation of the world, God chose certain individuals for salvation based on His foreseeing that they would, of their own free will, choose Christ.
Reformed (Calvinist) View: God's election is unconditional. God's choice of certain individuals for salvation was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, but was based solely in His good and sovereign will.
Or if you're interested in a more in depth explanation of the Reformed View you can look at Piper's explanation of Unconditional Election on his website here.
It is obviously the Reformed view that I am going to try to prove today. Like my Total Depravity thread I will be using the ESV to prove my points. Alright, lets get started. To prove Unconditional Election, we first have to prove Election in the first place. There isn't one single Christian denomination or sect even that denies that we are not Elected by God in some way, shape, or form. So, everyone should agree with me on my points. To prove Election we have to start with the book of Genesis and with God's promise to Abraham.
God's promise to Abraham starts in Genesis 12:2-3 it says:
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
To fully understand what God meant in this promise I recommend reading Calvin's commentary on the Genesis 2-3 you can find it here.
If you don't want to read several paragraphs of text from a man who lived almost 500 years ago the summary of it is that when God is referring to the name of Abraham he's referring to Christ. So I will bless Christ and make his name great, so that he will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless Christ, and him who dishonors Christ I will curse and in Christ all families (God later clarifies in Genesis 22:18 as Nations) of the earth will be blessed.
So through Christ all Nations of the Earth will be blessed. Later God said that Abraham's offspring will come from every nation. So there is at LEAST one saved, God chosen person from every nation that has ever existed since Adam and Eve's time, including Adam and Eve themselves. Not too many Christians disagree with this teaching but, I had to prove Election in the first place in order to prove that our election is Unconditional. If you're interested in extra verses/studying on Election I will be glad to give them to you through PM or in the actual thread. I'm trying to make this OP as short as possible and not as long as my previous one. Now, where in the bible does it say that our Election is unconditional rather than Conditional? I'll only be giving one piece of scripture since I'm almost out of time but if you're interested in more scriptures, PM me or ask for them in the thread. Please Quote my OP if you're going to ask for more scriptures because if this topic explodes like the last one, odds are I'm not going to have time to answer your question. My last thread got to over 10 pages long and I couldn't possibly reply to everybody. Okay the one scripture I'm going to give to defend Unconditional Election is the one every Calvinist will use, however I'll fully explain exactly what is meant by Paul in the passage. It is of course, Romans 8:28-30.
Romans 8:28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
These elected people that Paul is talking about are people chosen by God not people who chose God. You may think you chose God but in fact, the opposite is true. God chose YOU. To see my full argument on this subject you can wait for my topics on the 5 points of Calvinism when they all come out and read the scriptures I give as defense to this subject. Specifically: Irresistible grace.
Anyway, several things are clear from Romans 8:28-30. One: these people that are being called HAVE to be born again eternally secure children of God. Why? Because of the chain of Salvation Paul gives. Those who he called, he justified. Justification is where we are declared "not guilty by God." those who he justified, he also glorified. Glorification is when Jesus Christ returns and gives us a new body. This new body will be perfect in everywhere. Therefore, this passage also supports Perseverance of the Saints, but I’ll be talking about that in another thread.
When's the last time you've heard of somebody being called a Goat by Jesus Christ [(citation)] being declared Justified, and Glorified? No, they're raised on the second resurrection to Eternal Death. People who are declared Justified and later are Glorified are the very sheep of God. Nothing can take their salvation away because lets not even use the arguments of Christ, Yahweh, David, Solomon, All of the Apostles who wrote scripture including James, or the even the arguments of the writer of Hebrews. Lets just focus on the argument made by Paul in Romans. How can a person who is declared "not guilty" by God lose his salvation? Even if theoretically this chosen person by God lost their faith in Christ? (It's an impossibility but, I'll get to that in my last thread). But, lets say for the sake of argument they did lose their salvation. How can that person later be GLORIFIED (which is the last step to our salvation)? Those glorified don't enter hell. To claim such is ludicrous and would be blasphemy to the utter most core. No, those who are chosen by God are saved from the moment of faith, throughout eternity. As the Bible says from the beginning of the book to the end. To claim that we can lose our salvation is to call God and everyone who wrote the Bible a liar.
Also, what did Paul mean by foreknowledge? This is the main argument between Arminians and Calvinists. To prove which argument is true, we have to go to the Bible and what the Bible defines foreknowledge as, not what mankind says foreknowledge is. (Otherwise, we'd be ignoring Sola Scriptura, a key point of Protestantism.) There are a few passages I want you to look at.
Amos 3:2
"You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
If we take this passage in an Arminian definition (or literally) it would mean that God only knew about the Israelites out of ALL the nations of the Earth because well, that's what the passage says if we use the English definition of knowledge. So, he had no clue about me or you, he only had knowledge of the Israelites. Is this the case? Of course not! God knows everything! To claim that God doesn't know everything is to deny scripture and to deny basic human common sense.
So what can being known mean? It means God chose to set His favor and affection only upon Israel and the Descenants of Abraham out of the all the families of the earth. This is portrayed for us in the word ‘know’ throughout the entire Bible. To know someone is to set a very intimate affection on them. This is why the Bible refers to Adam and Eve’s sexual intimacy as ‘knowing’ in Genesis 4:1. Adam didn't know Eve as in "I know who you are. I know that you are my wife...etc." he knew her on a much deeper, much more intimate level.
I'm not saying that knowing is always sexual, I'm saying that knowledge in the Bible is a deep and unsearchable love for someone. It's to set favor upon that person and that person alone. We are more loved by God than we will ever realize. Adam loved Eve more than she would ever realize. And Eve loved Adam more than Adam would ever realize.
So what does “foreknowledge” mean? It does not refer to God’s actual knowledge of anything beforehand (though He in fact does have that knowledge). Rather “foreknowledge” refers to God’s setting His affection upon His people before the world was made. God intimately chose and knows His people, just as a husband intimately chose and knows his wife. It is true that this foreknowing is the foundation of predestination, and the Biblical definition of it makes this so much clearer.
Thus, if we were to translate the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge into Romans 8:29 it would read like this, “For those whom God intimately set His affection upon beforehand, He also predestined…” This meaning is in sync with the rest of the Bible and is the reformed definition of foreknowledge. God foreknowing and choosing us, is more deep and more intimate than we will EVER realize.
Also to claim that God foreknew all of his sheep because he knew that they would accept him, that would be a huge and massive DUH. Of COURSE he knew they would accept him! He CHOSE them! He's God and knows EVERYTHING! Honestly? If God looked into the future before the foundation of the world, he wouldn't see people accepting him. He would see no man on Earth being saved and mankind without hope. Why do you think God came to Earth to die for us? The Bible says that before God changes our hearts, we are NOTHING. We are by nature, sinners! Even after God changes us we are still sinners because we are sinners by nature. We are more sinners than we will ever realize, and are loved more than we will ever know. We cannot do good even if we tried, to accept God is an impossibility without the interference of God. The Bible says this time and time again (See my other thread [on Total Depravity] for scriptures). But yet, somehow we are able to accept Christ on our own despite being a Totally Depraved, Totally Sinful creation? Give me a break. To claim that is ludicrous in the highest extent.
If you're going to reply to this thread, can you please make it about the subject at hand and not just an all around debate about whether or not Reformed theology itself is true? Thank you. It's not that I don't have defenses for those arguments and don't love debating theology, I'd just much rather focus on one topic at a time. If you're interested in debating the first point of Calvinism (Total Depravity) you can go to my first thread on TULIP here. The other three threads I have not made yet.
