Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

friend of said:
The Last Enemy to be destroyed is death AFTER the 1000 year reign

Exactly. We are approaching the end of the millennium/Satan's season. The end is ushered in by Christ. Then we are in eternity.

Contrary to what you teach, the dead do not receive their incorruptible bodies until the final future coming of Jesus in majesty and glory at the end. The second coming is when all the redeemed receive their glorified bodies together. To say otherwise is to deny clear and repeated Scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 proves that this is when the dead in Christ are glorified: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

That the prime focus of 1 Thessalonians 4 is concentrated solely upon the Christian dead is seen in the four references to such in the reading. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 says, “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep … For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him … we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 supports this thought, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.

All will be changed; all will be united. This unitary group join Christ in an atom (1/20 of a second). This is instant, it is immediate and it is eternal.

The redemption of our bodies is the act of glorification. This is the final act of redemption for the elect. This involves all the elect of all time. Philippians 3:20-21 says, “For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

The appearance of Christ sees the accomplishment of the glorification act on the redeemed. In it, the elect’s bodies are immediately “fashioned like unto his glorious body.” They are changed from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from sin-cursed to the perfect.

Hebrews 11:39-40 refutes your theory. It shows the final perfection and eternal union of both the OT and NT saints, saying, “these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

This tell us that we will not be perfected without our OT brethren. The cross has made us one. This is the final act of redemption – the redemption of the body. It includes the saints of all time and is the great climactic ingathering of the family.

Romans 8:16-18 explains, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

In this reading, Paul is simply comparing the testing and trials that God’s people currently endure in this current life, which is plagued with all the consequences of the fall, and the joy of the eternal state when Christ comes that is totally purged of the curse. The portrayal of this age correlates with Galatians 1:4 that labels “this present time” of “sufferings” as “this present evil age.” Paul speaks of a time when “the children of God” will be “glorified together” at His return. He assures his audience that the difficulties of this life are nothing “to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” when Christ appears. His whole focus is the glory that will be finally and eternally realized at Christ’s return.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

The Greek word interpreted “vanity” in the KJV is the Greek word mataiotes meaning: 1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness; 2) perverseness, depravity; 3) frailty, want of vigour. This embodies all consequences of sin on the earth.

God in His providence and infinite wisdom has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, evil and the bondage of corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt; the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption” – it is the one and only future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

That day is the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is here described as “that Holy Spirit of promise.” The word “earnest” here relates to a security down payment. It is taken from the Greek word arrhabon, which is from a Hebrew origin [meaning a pledge in advance as security for the rest. You have heard of earnest money. ‘It is a portion of something, given or done in advance as a promise of the remainder’. This seal is active until the time when Jesus comes and we shall be physically redeemed.

Colossians 3:4 tells us: “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven … When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe.”

Paul is here consoling the believers in his day who were experiencing terrible persecution. He assured them that their current distress would be nothing to the future glory awaiting them. He reminded them that there was a day coming when all the wicked would be destroyed and all the righteous would be marvellously transformed and rewarded.

We shall indeed be changed into the image of the glorified Christ upon His return. 1 Corinthians 15:49 confirms: “we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

Philippians 3:18-21 says, “we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

The appearance of Christ sees the accomplishment of the glorification act on the redeemed. In it, the elect are made “like unto his glorious body.” Paul identifies the time of the subduing or subordinating of “all things unto himself” with the occasion of the second coming, which expressly sees the final act of redemption and the fulfilment of the glorification process. This is unquestionably the conclusion of history – the “times of restitution (or reconstitution) of all things.”

Marilyn C · Sep 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is talking about the redeemed through the centuries that have got saved. Royalty has been amongst them. They place their crowns at His feet. What a day that will be.

You have previously said that we are in the New Jerusalem, so which is it - on the earth or in the NJ?

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

friend of said:
How is it an opinion? Rev 20:5 clearly states that "this is the first resurrection " logically there is then another ressurection aka the second ressurection. It's obvious.

There is a second resurrection. It is the general resurrection when Jesus comes. The first resurrection occurred a long time ago. The "first resurrection" has happened a long time ago. Many Scriptures prove that Christ’s resurrection is the protos or the foremost in time, place, order or importance.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (or protos Strong’s 4416) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

Christ is the resurrection and the life. He is the source of all resurrection to immortality and to divine righteousness.

The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection that we partake in when we are born again. Because we partake in Christ's resurrection (the first), we are spared the second death that comes with the bodily resurrection at the second coming. Contrary to what Premils argue, this is absolute unequivocal corroborative proof that Christ is indeed "the first resurrection" in time and in importance.

Marilyn C · Sep 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is actually describing who Christ is, not just who He was. He is still the firstfruits. So forcing some imaginary future age into the text is unwarranted, unknown to the text and warned against by God. You are working from silence. Premil has zero corroboration. You are adding to Scripture again.

Christ is the first fruit. `But now Christ has risen from the dead and has become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.` (1 Cor. 15: 20)

From the time of Christ rising from the dead till He comes for His Body is a TIME PERIOD.
From the time Christ and His Body rise, till Christ has put down all rule and authority, the end, there is another TIME PERIOD.

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

Marilyn C said:
You have previously said that we are in the New Jerusalem, so which is it - on the earth or in the NJ?

Not so. You are getting me mixed up with someone else. The NJ arrives with the coming of Christ and adorns the new earth.

The “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This Second Coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Marilyn C · Sep 5, 2020

[QUOTE="sovereigngrace, post: 75316788, member: 424622

We shall indeed be changed into the image of the glorified Christ upon His return. 1 Corinthians 15:49 confirms: “we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

Philippians 3:18-21 says, “we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

The appearance of Christ sees the accomplishment of the glorification act on the redeemed. In it, the elect are made “like unto his glorious body.” Paul identifies the time of the subduing or subordinating of “all things unto himself” with the occasion of the second coming, which expressly sees the final act of redemption and the fulfilment of the glorification process. This is unquestionably the conclusion of history – the “times of restitution (or reconstitution) of all things.”[/QUOTE]

So why do we need to have a body like the Lord`s that can go through dimensions when we are supposedly on the new earth?

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

Marilyn C said:
Christ is the first fruit. `But now Christ has risen from the dead and has become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.` (1 Cor. 15: 20)

From the time of Christ rising from the dead till He comes for His Body is a TIME PERIOD.
From the time Christ and His Body rise, till Christ has put down all rule and authority, the end, there is another TIME PERIOD.

You can package it up all you want, but this text proves that the end comes at the coming of Christ. This is supported by multiple Scripture. There are no survivors to justify your escapist theology and imaginary 7-year trib and 3rd coming. The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Marilyn C · Sep 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so. You are getting me mixed up with someone else. The NJ arrives with the coming of Christ and populates the new earth.

The “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This Second Coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

So who is in the city?

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

Marilyn C said:
So why do we need to have a body like the Lord`s that can go through dimensions when we are supposedly on the new earth?

The new earth is glorified. Only the glorified are suited and qualified to inherit it.
Glorification occurs at the second coming. Multiple Scripture supports that. Your fight is clearly with God's Word.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Interestingly, this Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect here.

Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man’s access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom.

This changeover from “this present evil age” blighted with “the bondage of corruption” to the bliss and splendor of “incorruption” and “the glory which shall be revealed in us” doesn’t happen until the return of Christ. The transition from this temporal evil age to the new perfect eternal age happens at Christ’s return. Scripture show this glorious climatic event will see the glorification of God’s people and the glorification of this earth. The means by which God removes corruption from this earth at the end is by fire. People need to be glorified in order to equip them to populate the new perfected environment.

Mortality cannot possess it. The wicked cannot possess it. Premil has billions of both polluting the new earth.

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

Marilyn C said:
So who is in the city?

All the redeemed of all ages.

friend of · Sep 5, 2020

SG you have to literally ignore the first part of Revelation 20 to make your idea work. You are isolating Rev. 20:6 and putting it out of context.

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

friend of said:
SG you have to literally ignore the first part of Revelation 20 to make your idea work. You are isolating Rev. 20:6 and putting it out of context.

Not so. Scripture repeatedly describes the defeat of Satan 2000 years ago. Pretribbers and Premillers want to ignore that. In doing so, they are always elevating the power of Satan. Amils are always exalting the power of Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo (Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jesus said in Mark 3:23-27: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo Strong’s 1210) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (or deo Strong’s 1210) him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
(1) Anyone who contends that 2 Peter 3 supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of the destructive nature of the passage. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

I don't consider myself a premillennialist, but I think your argument falls flat on its face when we consider Zechariah 14, which paints a very clear timeline that includes destruction at the messiah's return, followed by a long earthly messianic reign.

Acts 1:11 agrees with this verse about the nature of Christ's return:

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east....

Revelation 21:23 says the same thing as this verse about the light of the messianic kingdom:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Followed by the destruction, same as 2 Peter 3:

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

But there will be heathen survivors, which agrees with Revelation 20:8:

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

I see no conflict. I don't personally accept the pre-mil position, myself, but I don't think your argument has much merit.

Marilyn C · Sep 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so. You are getting me mixed up with someone else. The NJ arrives with the coming of Christ and adorns the new earth.

I don`t think so. On another thread you said, Quote: `Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem, Unquote.

Then in this thread you say concerning the kings and the nations on the New Earth -

Quote: It is talking about the redeemed through the centuries that have got saved. Royalty has been amongst them. Unquote.

So you seem to be saying that the Body of Christ will be in the New Jerusalem while out on the New earth will be those redeemed through the centuries. That is two groups there.

Also as we, the Body of Christ are called kingpriests, I do not see them in the New Jerusalem or the New Earth.

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
I don't consider myself a premillennialist, but I think your argument falls flat on its face when we consider Zechariah 14, which paints a very clear timeline that includes destruction at the messiah's return, followed by a long earthly messianic reign.

Acts 1:11 agrees with this verse about the nature of Christ's return:

Revelation 21:23 says the same thing as this verse about the light of the messianic kingdom:

Followed by the destruction, same as 2 Peter 3:

But there will be heathen survivors, which agrees with Revelation 20:8:

I see no conflict. I don't personally accept the pre-mil position, myself, but I don't think your argument has much merit.

So, if you are not Premil what are you? Amil and Postmil reject the idea of another age in-between this age and the age to come. They also reject your claim for survivors. Who are these survivors? You sound like a classic Premil.

I totally disagree with your thesis. There is absolutely no correlation between these to chapters. The burden of proof is with you. You made the claim.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2020

Marilyn C said:
I don`t think so. On another thread you said, Quote: `Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem, Unquote.

Then in this thread you say concerning the kings and the nations on the New Earth -

Quote: It is talking about the redeemed through the centuries that have got saved. Royalty has been amongst them. Unquote.

So you seem to be saying that the Body of Christ will be in the New Jerusalem while out on the New earth will be those redeemed through the centuries. That is two groups there.

Also as we, the Body of Christ are called kingpriests, I do not see them in the New Jerusalem or the New Earth.

That is our spiritual status now. But we enter heavenly Jerusalem upon death. It will return to the new earth when Jesus comes.

The rest is all your own opinion and is contrary to Scripture.

Marilyn C · Sep 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is our spiritual status now. But we enter heavenly Jerusalem upon death. It will return to the new earth when Jesus comes.

The rest is all your own opinion and is contrary to Scripture.

So some are in the New Jerusalem and some on the new earth. You haven`t clarified the difference.

`...and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father..` (Rev. 1: 6)

So where are those kingpriests?

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
So, if you are not Premil what are you.

A person.

Amil and Postmil reject the idea of another age in-between this age and the age to come.

I don't care what they believe.

They also reject your claim for survivors.

It's not my claim. It's what the Bible says. I just showed you.

Who are these survivors?

The survivors are people opposed to the kingdom of God. It says it right there in the chapter I pointed you toward.

You sound like a classic Premil.

Because I disagree with your reasoning? My negative assertion against your position is not a positive assertion toward something else. I may not know what the answer is, but I do know that you aren't presenting it.

I totally disagree with your thesis.

I don't have a thesis. I showed you different sets of scripture. If you think they contradict each other, then your argument is against the Bible, not me.

There is absolutely no correlation between these to chapters.

There is compatibility. That's all I need to show to prove that you are wrong. If I can't show that, then it only suggests that the Bible contradicts itself, in which case we are both wrong.

The burden of proof is with you. You made the claim.

Whoa, there, big fella! You wrote the opening post. You made the positive assertion. I'm just telling you why you have me unconvinced. The burden of proof is all yours.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years... new earth ...glorified saints...Jesus shown to be on earth... the binding of Satan...2 resurrections/judgments...the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming...detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

Click to expand...

Not specified, nor refuted...verses six through eleven...not relevant...verse nine...not specified, nor refuted...not relevant, and I don't know what you're talking about...not applicable in this time frame...not my responsibility. Do your own homework.

What I posted earlier still stands. You failed to make your case against it.

Dave L · Sep 6, 2020

The Millennium? It's a false doctrine believed by the Pharisees. Here's what Revelation 20 says according to an Amillennial interpretation.

The gospel preached to the Gentiles. Satan bound by the gospel.

“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.” Revelation 20:1–3 (KJV 1900)

Satan rallies the unbelievers from around the world against Israel the church.

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Revelation 20:7–10 (KJV 1900)

1000 years? A sketch would be;

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

1000 years are Satan's binding. When they end Satan is loosed. So the 1000 years are not the kingdom. When they end, Satan is loosed, and he attacks the kingdom.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = imminent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

When did the binding happen? The binding happened in Christ's ministry. This includes preaching the gospel to all nations fulfilling God's promise to Abraham.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.

lsume · Sep 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
(1) Anyone who contends that 2 Peter 3 supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of the destructive nature of the passage. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

(2) The Premillennialial paradigm again collapses on the flawed notions that “the day of the Lord” lasts a literal 1,000 years, and that the destruction predicted in the narrative only occurs at the very end of this day, 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ. Notwithstanding, this undoubted forced interpretation of “the day of the Lord” is totally demolished when one realises that the world must therefore be completely destroyed before Satan has his opportunity to “deceive the nations” for “a little season” at the end, after the millennium. There will manifestly be no world or wicked left for Satan to gather Gog and Magog “as the sand of the sea” against “the camp of the saints.” This again only serves to support the belief that this passage can only be fully and completely realised at the second coming of the Lord, and in the Amillennial position. For them to take 2 Peter 3 as it reads (and means) would totally destroy their beloved doctrine.

(3) Placing the destruction of the world 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ, totally nullifies the whole import of this reading, ignoring the plain warning of the text, the undoubted unexpected all-consummating earth-destroying nature of this judgment and its unquestionable focus upon them that are caught unprepared. 2 Peter 3:10 succinctly says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

(4) The Premillennialist totally ignores the fact that the solemn message embodied within this reading is solely directed towards the “scoffers” in “the last days” that foolishly question the reality of the impending return of Christ. It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.

I’m not schooled in dogma so I am not sure what divisions there are in the various Christian denominations. What I am clear on is that we are not to strive with our fellow man. I also believe that the only way to Truly understand God’s Word is when Christ teaches. My understanding is that there is going to be a new earth as there is a new heaven.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

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