Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

sovereigngrace said:

Could you not answer yes or no instead of going round the world to say something still extremely ambiguous and hazy?



No it does not. It supports the Amil/Postmil and Posttrib/Premil views that the dead in Christ go to be with Christ upon death. This is a moot point.



Really? So where is your physical rapture/resurrection in Revelation that sees the saints move from earth to heaven before a tribulation? Nowhere. You have to force that into the sacred text to support your beliefs. Where is the Church mentioned here? This totally negates a crucial Pretrib theory that the non-mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19 proves they are not on earth, and are in fact raptured. This shows the duplicity of Pretrib.

Because Pretrib has nothing, they render the 24 elders the Church. This is classic eisegesis. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests this. The 24 elders actually expose The Pretrib apartheid - always trying to separate the people of God. The symbolism must refer to the joining of the Old Testament and New Testament saints upon death in some way. 12 tribes and 12 apostles are clearly in view.



So, you have shown no rapture yet, you have no mention of the Church, yet, you insist on arguing Pretrib. You are building your whole paradigm upon nothing. That exposes the nonsensical nature of Pretrib. The whole theory is built upon silence.

Amil/Postmil and Posttrib/Premil sees the dead in Christ currently in heaven before the one and only second coming. This is happening now.



In the middle of your imaginary 7 year trib that you are unable to show.

You have zero proof for a 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19. It actually adds up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.



Exactly, This woman is the Church. The Church has been ongoing since before Christ.



Here we go again: while sweeping statements and zero biblical evidence to support them. This is why every Bible believing Christian should reject Pretrib.



Really? Do you ever take the time to read what happens on the day of the Lord? Obviously not! Because if you did, you would immediately become an Amillennialist.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.



It is taught throughout the Word.



Your 3 Comings are just ways to avoid the truth.

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sovereign grace,

1. Ambiguous and hazy? No, just the foggin’ in your noggin’ post and tunnel vision where your post can’t see the forest for the trees.

2. Moot point? You can’t even show living believers being raptured in your cycle of 7 view in Revelation. The resurrection of the dead only is in Revelation 15:1-3;20:4-6. Your view is moot as in silenced.

3. 19 year theory? Ridiculous! 2 sets of 1260 days is 7 years.
The temple, and the Two Witnesses ministry and the refuge for Israel the sunclothed Woman and the time of Jacob’s trouble is all 3.5 years. Revelation 11:2; 11:3; 12:6; 13:5; Daniel 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; 11-12.

3. Physical rapture resurrection?
The 144,000 Revelation 7 as the manchild Revelation 12 and raptured to Heaven Revelation 12:6. In 14:1-5 they are the Firstfruits of the tribulation raptured to the Heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne of God. Every man in his own order.
Are you going to deny they are raptured to Heaven when they are redeemed from earth and among men?

4. You are trying to mix the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 and the Day of the Lord Chapter 5 into one context when they are separate. Shame on such post mishandling of the Word of God.

5. The Sun Clothed Woman is Israel Revelation 12:1 with Genesis 37:9-11 for the manchild and the remnant is never mentioned in connection with the church and we are speaking of National Israel. Are you going to deny this?

6. The whole priesthood of Old was 24 elders 1 Chronicles 24:1-9.
The names of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles are written on the Holy City, New Jerusalem 21:10-14. The twelve apostles are a part of the church as well as tribes of Israel. They sit on thrones and they will cast their crowns before Christ throne etc.

7. 2 Peter 3:10-13: The Day of the Lord is at Armageddon and is called the Day of the almighty God.
The Day of the Lord also last 1000 years.
So the renovation 2 Peter:3-7-13; Hebrews 1:10-12; 12:25-27; Romans 8:21 will be at the last part of the Day of the Lord and the beginning of The Day of God which is also the New Heaven and the New Earth Revelation 21:1.
Keep on dreaming. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. Ambiguous and hazy? No, just the foggin’ in your noggin’ post and tunnel vision where your post can’t see the forest for the trees.

2. Moot point? You can’t even show living believers being raptured in your cycle of 7 view in Revelation. The resurrection of the dead only is in Revelation 15:1-3;20:4-6. Your view is moot as in silenced.

3. 19 year theory? Ridiculous! 2 sets of 1260 days is 7 years.
The temple, and the Two Witnesses ministry and the refuge for Israel the sunclothed Woman and the time of Jacob’s trouble is all 3.5 years. Revelation 11:2; 11:3; 12:6; 13:5; Daniel 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; 11-12.

3. Physical rapture resurrection?
The 144,000 Revelation 7 as the manchild Revelation 12 and raptured to Heaven Revelation 12:6. In 14:1-5 they are the Firstfruits of the tribulation raptured to the Heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne of God. Every man in his own order.
Are you going to deny they are raptured to Heaven when they are redeemed from earth and among men?

4. You are trying to mix the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 and the Day of the Lord Chapter 5 into one context when they are separate. Shame on such post mishandling of the Word of God.

5. The Sun Clothed Woman is Israel Revelation 12:1 with Genesis 37:9-11 for the manchild and the remnant is never mentioned in connection with the church and we are speaking of National Israel. Are you going to deny this?

6. The whole priesthood of Old was 24 elders 1 Chronicles 24:1-9.
The names of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles are written on the Holy City, New Jerusalem 21:10-14. The twelve apostles are a part of the church as well as tribes of Israel. They sit on thrones and they will cast their crowns before Christ throne etc.

7. 2 Peter 3:10-13: The Day of the Lord is at Armageddon and is called the Day of the almighty God.
The Day of the Lord also last 1000 years.
So the renovation 2 Peter:3-7-13; Hebrews 1:10-12; 12:25-27; Romans 8:21 will be at the last part of the Day of the Lord and the beginning of The Day of God which is also the New Heaven and the New Earth Revelation 21:1.
Keep on dreaming. Jerry kelso

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Your fight is with Scripture. You have nothing to bring to the table but: "I do not agree with what the Bible says." Until you embrace the Word it is pointless engaging with you. There is nothing to rebut. You have nothing.

I refer you back to my last post that is totally unaddressed.

sovereigngrace said:

Your fight is with Scripture. You have nothing to bring to the table but: "I do not agree with what the Bible says." Until you embrace the Word it is pointless engaging with you. There is nothing to rebut. You have nothing.

I refer you back to my last post that is totally unaddressed.

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sovereign grace,

1. Do you really understand how dishonest your statements are? I don’t embrace the word? Last post is totally addressed?
I have nothing to say? And I gave you scripture that was a literal statement that those in the First Resurrection were those that didn’t take the mark of the beast.
This is the actual scripture that goes further: And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them and Judgement was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were Beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the First Resurrection.
Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God in Christ, and shall reign with him a Thousand years.
These are specific dead martyrs for they have to reject the mark etc. which will be a specific AntiChrist. There are no living believers here in the First Resurrection.
You have no literal statement or statements in your scenario of Revelation and that is why you have to make your deduction from giving other scriptures first.
A text without a context is a pretext. That is why you can’t post honestly and don’t understand proper hermeneutics.
I have given you the scripture verbatim and I know you are going to explain it differently but upon your line of thinking I can say, you have nothing to say!!!!!!
Now, are you going to say I have nothing to say? Because in doing so you are claiming superiority by your own autonomy. Jerrykelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. Do you really understand how dishonest your statements are? I don’t embrace the word? Last post is totally addressed?
I have nothing to say? And I gave you scripture that was a literal statement that those in the First Resurrection were those that didn’t take the mark of the beast.
This is the actual scripture that goes further: And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them and Judgement was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were Beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the First Resurrection.
Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God in Christ, and shall reign with him a Thousand years.
These are specific dead martyrs for they have to reject the mark etc. which will be a specific AntiChrist. There are no living believers here in the First Resurrection.
You have no literal statement or statements in your scenario of Revelation and that is why you have to make your deduction from giving other scriptures first.
A text without a context is a pretext. That is why you can’t post honestly and don’t understand proper hermeneutics.
I have given you the scripture verbatim and I know you are going to explain it differently but upon your line of thinking I can say, you have nothing to say!!!!!!
Now, are you going to say I have nothing to say? Because in doing so you are claiming superiority by your own autonomy. Jerrykelso

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First of all, you do not seem to have the ability or willingness to quote Scripture and then exegete the same This is basic biblical hermeneutics. The reason is, you cannot. To do so would reinforce what others already know: what you teach is not in the Book.

Second, you have been unable to provide one Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. That alone ends the discussion. That is proof you hold to an extra-biblical man-made theory. It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text exposes its error.

Third, you have 2 physical resurrections that conquer the grave before the first resurrection in Revelation 20 that conquers the grave in Revelation. That doesn't make sense.

Fourth, in one breath you insist on a chronological approach to Revelation that equate to some so-called 7 -year trib yet when I show you that is impossible and that the numbers do not add up you cherry pick 2 numbers in Revelation and add them up (ignoring the rest) and package that as Pretrib. That is contradictory. That is deceitful.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation

Fourth, in one breath you present the Day of the Lord as the coming of Christ, and in the next you apply that to your imaginary 3rd coming. you clearly know what the rest of us do: there is no basis for your doctrine anywhere in Scripture. When I showed you hard Scripture that shows that they are the one who sidestepped it and refused to exegesie it.

Fifthly, you CANNOT even show any mention of the Church being raptured in Revelation 4-6. All you can do is cut and paste what you have been taught. That may satisfy the indoctrinated Pretribber, but not the objective Berean. What is more, you are totally ignoring every point i am making. That is the only way Pretrib can survive. I have showed you that contrary to what your teachers have taught you, the Church is found on earth (and in heaven) throughout Revelation 4-19. Here is the ignored evidence again:

The Church throughout the Word is shown to be made up of the “saints” (Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9), the “redeemed” (Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4), “them which are saved” (Revelation 21:24), the “brethren” (Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9), the “chosen (or elect), and faithful” (Revelation 17:4), “servants” of God (Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is the “woman” (Revelation 12:1,4, 6, 13, 15, 16 and 17), “the bride” of Christ (Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17), “the Lamb's wife” (Revelation 19:7 and 21:9), “the temple” (Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

They are those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14), and are now “kings and priests” (Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6), they are the “souls” in heaven (Revelation 6:9 and 20:4), the “fellowservants” (Revelation 6:11). God calls them as “my people” (Revelation 18:4) and “his people” (Revelation 21:3).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church relates to those “that overcometh” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7), and “that watcheth, and keepeth their garments” (Revelation 16:15), “they that do/keep God’s commandments” (Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14), and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” (Revelation 21:27).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as “the dead which die in the Lord” (Revelation 14:13), as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark” (Revelation 15:2), “much people in heaven” (Revelation 19:1), who are “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), and are “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9), and are “the armies which were in heaven” (Revelation 19:14).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

sovereigngrace said:

First of all, you do not seem to have the ability or willingness to quote Scripture and then exegete the same This is basic biblical hermeneutics. The reason is, you cannot. To do so would reinforce what others already know: what you teach is not in the Book.

Second, you have been unable to provide one Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. That alone ends the discussion. That is proof you hold to an extra-biblical man-made theory. It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text exposes its error.

Third, you have 2 physical resurrections that conquer the grave before the first resurrection in Revelation 20 that conquers the grave in Revelation. That doesn't make sense.

Fourth, in one breath you insist on a chronological approach to Revelation that equate to some so-called 7 -year trib yet when I show you that is impossible and that the numbers do not add up you cherry pick 2 numbers in Revelation and add them up (ignoring the rest) and package that as Pretrib. That is contradictory. That is deceitful.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation

Fourth, in one breath you present the Day of the Lord as the coming of Christ, and in the next you apply that to your imaginary 3rd coming. you clearly know what the rest of us do: there is no basis for your doctrine anywhere in Scripture. When I showed you hard Scripture that shows that they are the one who sidestepped it and refused to exegesie it.

Fifthly, you CANNOT even show any mention of the Church being raptured in Revelation 4-6. All you can do is cut and paste what you have been taught. That may satisfy the indoctrinated Pretribber, but not the objective Berean. What is more, you are totally ignoring every point i am making. That is the only way Pretrib can survive. I have showed you that contrary to what your teachers have taught you, the Church is found on earth (and in heaven) throughout Revelation 4-19. Here is the ignored evidence again:

The Church throughout the Word is shown to be made up of the “saints” (Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9), the “redeemed” (Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4), “them which are saved” (Revelation 21:24), the “brethren” (Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9), the “chosen (or elect), and faithful” (Revelation 17:4), “servants” of God (Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is the “woman” (Revelation 12:1,4, 6, 13, 15, 16 and 17), “the bride” of Christ (Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17), “the Lamb's wife” (Revelation 19:7 and 21:9), “the temple” (Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

They are those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14), and are now “kings and priests” (Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6), they are the “souls” in heaven (Revelation 6:9 and 20:4), the “fellowservants” (Revelation 6:11). God calls them as “my people” (Revelation 18:4) and “his people” (Revelation 21:3).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church relates to those “that overcometh” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7), and “that watcheth, and keepeth their garments” (Revelation 16:15), “they that do/keep God’s commandments” (Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14), and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” (Revelation 21:27).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as “the dead which die in the Lord” (Revelation 14:13), as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark” (Revelation 15:2), “much people in heaven” (Revelation 19:1), who are “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), and are “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9), and are “the armies which were in heaven” (Revelation 19:14).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

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sovereign grace,

1. You are free to believe however you want, but you don’t have the right to be dishonest.

2. How are you dishonest is plain to see when you claim that I haven’t given one bit of scriptural proof.

3. How are you dishonest is plain to see when you say I didn’t quote the complete scripture verbatim and exegete it when I did both in Revelation 20:4-6, showing there is a resurrection of the dead only and no living believers raptured with them in the First Resurrection.
You on the other hand, you cannot show one scripture in Revelation that shows a literal statement of the post rapture of living and dead martyrs. .
Yet you say I have no evidence.
4. How are you dishonest when everything you accuse me of you do.

5. Your fight is really against Dispensationalism is what you are really mad at just like many amills that I have conversed with on this forum.
Now I don’t know why this is but there is no real reason for your opinion of it to be written in such a distasteful manner.

6. How are you dishonest is plain to see when you tout your own autonomy and are unfair at the same time in exegesis. Jerrykelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. You are free to believe however you want, but you don’t have the right to be dishonest.

2. How are you dishonest is plain to see when you claim that I haven’t given one bit of scriptural proof.

3. How are you dishonest is plain to see when you say I didn’t quote the complete scripture verbatim and exegete it when I did both in Revelation 20:4-6, showing there is a resurrection of the dead only and no living believers raptured with them in the First Resurrection.
You on the other hand, you cannot show one scripture in Revelation that shows a literal statement of the post rapture of living and dead martyrs. .
Yet you say I have no evidence.
4. How are you dishonest when everything you accuse me of you do.

5. Your fight is really against Dispensationalism is what you are really mad at just like many amills that I have conversed with on this forum.
Now I don’t know why this is but there is no real reason for your opinion of it to be written in such a distasteful manner.

6. How are you dishonest is plain to see when you tout your own autonomy and are unfair at the same time in exegesis. Jerrykelso

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Thanks again for ignoring every point I made. Yes, my fight is with with Dispensationalism. That is because it is a false man-made Jesuit doctrine. Your fight is with Holy Writ.

I would rather be on the side of truth.

sovereigngrace said:

Thanks again for ignoring every point I made. Yes, my fight is with with Dispensationalism. That is because it is a false man-made Jesuit doctrine. Your fight is with Holy Writ.

I would rather be on the side of truth.

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sovereign grace,

1. You are not on the side of truth because you are telling a falsehood that I ignored every point you made.
All you want to do is spend your time accusing.

2. The pre-trib is not a false man made Jesuit doctrine.
It originated with the Apostle Paul and Peter showed it and John the Revelator.

3. I am not fighting with Holy Writ because that would be futile like your relentless posts with weak hermeneutics that fall short of being apologetic or fair.
Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. You are not on the side of truth because you are telling a falsehood that I ignored every point you made.
All you want to do is spend your time accusing.

2. The pre-trib is not a false man made Jesuit doctrine.
It originated with the Apostle Paul and Peter showed it and John the Revelator.

3. I am not fighting with Holy Writ because that would be futile like your relentless posts with weak hermeneutics that fall short of being apologetic or fair.
Jerry kelso

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If it is biblical then answer my simple question (that i have asked a thousand times): can you give us one single Scripture that teaches your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

sovereigngrace said:

If it is biblical then answer my simple question (that i have asked a thousand times): can you give us one single Scripture that teaches your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

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sovereign grace,

1. Revelation 4:1-5:13 the Heavenly scene is followed is immediately by the 7 year tribulation Revelation 6-19. Then immediately followed by the Second Coming to the Battle of Armageddon on earth Revelation 19:11-21.
Jerrykelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. Revelation 4:1-5:13 the Heavenly scene is followed is immediately by the 7 year tribulation Revelation 6-19. Then immediately followed by the Second Coming to the Battle of Armageddon on earth Revelation 19:11-21.
Jerrykelso

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Where is your rapture? That is the redeemed souls worshipping Christ now. There is no physical catching away before the intermediate state. It occurs after it. You obviously have no Scripture anywhere.

sovereigngrace said:

Where is your rapture? That is the redeemed souls worshipping Christ now. There is no physical catching away before the intermediate state. It occurs after it. You obviously have no Scripture anywhere.

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sovereign grace,

1. I gave you the scriptures it is up to you to believe.

2. Redeemed souls are worshipping God now but this is a future picture because the church will be raptured through the door in Heaven which will be an actual portal.
The search for someone to open the sealed scrolls which will be the Lion of Judah who was worthy to open it is future according to Revelation 1:19 things hereafter which was future from the vision of Christ in the middle of the 7 churches and the 7 stars.
These were the historical 7 churches of Asia that it was addressed and written to.
However, it is a prophecy for the whole church age.
If the letters were confined to the 7 churches of Asia there would be no mystery Revelation 1:20 amp need for a universal call to individuals to hear and overcome through this age.

3. Matthew 24-25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28 Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that would transpire on the earth in the last days and to stand before the son of man Luke 21:34-36. Almost the same in John 14:1-3.
Jesus didn’t reveal this mystery but Paul did in 1 Corinthians 15:51. This is before the intermediate state of the tribulation saints because every man in his own order. Have to go. Good night Jerrykelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. I gave you the scriptures it is up to you to believe.

2. Redeemed souls are worshipping God now but this is a future picture because the church will be raptured through the door in Heaven which will be an actual portal.
The search for someone to open the sealed scrolls which will be the Lion of Judah who was worthy to open it is future according to Revelation 1:19 things hereafter which was future from the vision of Christ in the middle of the 7 churches and the 7 stars.
These were the historical 7 churches of Asia that it was addressed and written to.
However, it is a prophecy for the whole church age.
If the letters were confined to the 7 churches of Asia there would be no mystery Revelation 1:20 amp need for a universal call to individuals to hear and overcome through this age.

3. Matthew 24-25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28 Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that would transpire on the earth in the last days and to stand before the son of man Luke 21:34-36. Almost the same in John 14:1-3.
Jesus didn’t reveal this mystery but Paul did in 1 Corinthians 15:51. This is before the intermediate state of the tribulation saints because every man in his own order. Have to go. Good night Jerrykelso

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You have no Pretrib rapture in Revelation because it does not exist. It is all fiction. It belongs to the Left Behind novels. In none of the references you present (which you once again fail to quote, because they do not say what you claim), is there any mention of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

I notice your references are getting more and more broader and indirect because even you know that your doctrine enjoys no biblical support. I recommend you give it a decant burial and move on. It is clear that you are in love with a doctrine rather than what the inspired pages expressly state.

sovereigngrace said:

You have no Pretrib rapture in Revelation because it does not exist. It is all fiction. It belongs to the Left Behind novels. In none of the references you present (which you once again fail to quote, because they do not say what you claim), is there any mention of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

I notice your references are getting more and more broader and indirect because even you know that your doctrine enjoys no biblical support. I recommend you give it a decant burial and move on. It is clear that you are in love with a doctrine rather than what the inspired pages expressly state.

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sovereign grace,

I’m one step ahead of you, because your doctrine never was, falsely was, and then was gone again. It’s dead and cannot be resurrected again since the Dark ages has been toppled. Jerry kelso

eleos1954 said:

1,000 years symbolic of what?

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A long time.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

I’m one step ahead of you, because your doctrine never was, falsely was, and then was gone again. It’s dead and cannot be resurrected again since the Dark ages has been toppled. Jerry kelso

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The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

Jipsah said:

A long time.

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So, is or is not a literal thousand years a long time? Would it be a long time compared to 1 year, for example?

DavidPT said:

So, is or is not a literal thousand years a long time? Would it be a long time compared to 1 year, for example?

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Really, how can any one compare that time? Ask me in 1000 years.

Timtofly said:

Ask me in 1000 years.

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Don't you really mean 2000 years or more by that? Wait a minute, you are not Amil, though.

sovereigngrace said:

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

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sovereign grace,

1. First it was Darby and now you’re backtracking to Acunza.
William Watson has a book on English theology of people who believed in pre trib rapture and the tenets of Dispensationalism in the 15th century, 17 and 18.

2. If you would dig a little deeper you would find Dispensationalism in the Bible.
Ephesians 1:10; 3:2.
The dispensation of the fullness of time bringing all things together in one covers from Creation to the New Heaven and New Earth and the Holy City coming down.
One would have to think foolishly to disagree in the slightest. Why? Because the plan of God was before the foundation of the world in the mind of God.

3. Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God.
That is a stewardship of the things in the New Covenant, specifically the mystery of the church in this passage.
These two scriptures show a single dispensation and an overall across the board from beginning to end, Creation to the Final restoration. Jerrykelso