Again, Paul writes them this second letter and tells them specifically "do not be deceived by any means", that day shall not happen...If they were going to be raptured, Paul would not be so earnest in this warning. The subject hasn't changed and is still "our gathering back to Christ". If there were a pretrib rapture possible, than Paul wouldn't have given out the warning to not be deceived.
You cut off what Paul said.
"That day".. the Day of the Lord.. "shall not take place UNTIL the departure comes first."
The teaching of the apostle Paul is about the timing of the rapture. He didn't tell them that it wouldn't happen at all. The deception was that people were saying that the Day of the Lord had already begun.
That's like saying that the Tribulation has already begun. But it can't until the pre-trib rapture happens first.
Your earlier translation of "the falling away" as "departure is a false hope. Departure from one's faith is more like it. It's apostasy pure and simple. That's the correct translation.
Not so. The apostle Paul did not tell them in either epistle about falling away from faith. However, he did in some other epistles.
The falling away from faith was required by King James that the translators use that phrase instead of what all of the other printed Bibles before it translated as "Departure". Most honest Bible scholars and commentaries will confirm that the word should be translated "Departure."
And those waiting on Christ to come first are setting themselves up. That's why he says he comes at an hour most are not expecting.
Are you using the Revelation text of the church at Sardis?
The church that gets raptured is the Philadelphian church. The word Philadelphia means brotherly love. So all a Christian has to do is walk in love toward the brethran and there's no missing the rapture. The pre-trib rapture.
It's not a set up when like the five wise virgins the Christian keeps plenty oil in their lamp, so that whether they sleep or are awake, they won't miss His Coming in the rapture. The apostle Paul says as much.
Do you not believe Christ when he also gives out the warning to not be deceived and when someone says here is Christ or there is Christ?
No pre-trib rapture Christian will have to rely on someone else to tell the ready Christian when the rapture is happening. The trump of God shall sound. The shout of the angel shall be heard. Loud enough to literally wake the dead.
He's warning us as is Paul. It's very serious. Paul says we must have the complete armour on to fight the "fiery darts of Satan in that "evil day". Paul certainly isn't teaching that some are whisked away, he's teaching the opposite. Paul says above all else, we must "stand". And Christ says those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
Salvation doesn't come by enduring. Salvation comes by believing in the anointed words of the gospel, and not from anyone who speaks differently than what is written in the Bible.
Besides, enduring to the end to be saved is inaccurate. The word that is translated saved should have been translated preserved. How does one endure? By not letting one's love grow cold. So this confirms what I earlier said.
No, we read the entire bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse, rightly dividing the word of God as to not lose context.
If a post-trib rapture believer really did that, then they wouldn't be a post-trib rapture believer., they'd be a pre-trib rapture believer.
If you think Paul is teaching about the end times and these aren't the same trumpets as seen in Revelation, than you're beliefs are truly all over the place.
On the contrary. You make "Last Trump" and "the seventh trump" into the same thing. But neither surrounding text is regarding the other. But contextually different. For different occasions and timeframes.
Christ teaches in the gospels in such a simplicity that the other authors are only witnesses to his teachings. The last trump when taken back to the Greek is the farthest out. There are no more after that. And we see in Revelation the 7th is indeed the last. And why wouldn't it be knowing God's preference for the number. Of course it's the 7th, the last and indeed the trump of God.
If you were acquainted with Hebrew culture and acquainted with the Moeds, then you'd know that the Last Trump is referring to the blowing of the Shofar at Rosh HaShanah. The notes are distinct. And the last notes are as long as the person has breath in their lungs. They are a call for the dead to rise, but only if the time of the rapture has come. Until then each Rosh HaShanah, is a rehearsal of the coming fulfillment of that Moed.
You talk about non biblical support but I have yet to see you post one verse that even suggests that Christ returns before the 7th trump.
That's because you've trained yourself to dismiss the verses that teach of pre-trib rapture. To you, they don't exist or they mean something else.
But that is private interpretation or eisegesis.
Nowhere, just going by the traditional belief that many think Christ will come back and masses of Christians will just disappear.
It's a biblical belief. Starting with Enoch. A few other prophets, with Jesus who disappeared out of their sight. The church will be speedily taken out at the pre-trib rapture. The two witnesses of the Revelation 11 as well. And also the 144,000 Jews of Revelation 12.
Satan and his getting kicked out jumpstarts the tribulation.
You didn't say of what satan gets kicked out of.
If you refer to Revelation 12, that is the start of the Great Tribulation, the remaining 3.5yrs of the seven year Tribulation.
But, according to Revelation 6:1 the opening of the first seal, that is when the lawless one of 2 Thes. shows up and that starts the Tribulation.
You stated,
Meaning you seem to be one of the ones that think the Holy Spirit is the restraining power and will be removed.
You saying that tells me that you didn't read my entire post. I didn't say the H.S. is taken out. I clearly said that He who restrains is the Body of Christ. As Jesus gave authority over all the power of the enemy.
I might be mistaken if that's not your belief.
It's to your credit that you allow such a possibility of being mistaken.
But I was pointing out that's impossible for the Holy Spirit to be removed seeing how Christ said some will be delivered up at that time and people are not to premeditate what they will say because it will be the Holy Spirit speaking through them.
The word "premeditate" is not the original Greek word, it's translated "beforehand".
Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit. [/quote] "Take no anxious thought" .. "Do not worry beforehand"..
It is possible to think, and pray without worry or anxiety of what to say. Jesus implies that it is. His words are to be used to make confession of faith to that effect.
This is the very same testimony that is written in Revelation 12,
Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The seed of the woman is/are the Jews. So unless you would convert, it doesn't mean you.
The apostle John, a Messianic Jew, had that testimony, which is why he was put on the Isle of Patmos. Because all attempts to martyr him failed. Because He had developed the belief so highly that Jesus loved him.
And another witness is as early as Revelation 2,
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."
The tribulation of ten days is different than the Tribulation lasting seven years. The apostle Paul knew he would be martyred and looked to have a crown of life.
Revelation 2 is only for those who will be thrown into prison and sentenced to be martyred. So unless you fly to the middle east and present yourself to any Arab to make you a martyr, Revelation 2 doesn't apply to you.
There's no Biblical certainty, especially since you don't rightly divide God's word, that you of this church age, that God would skip over you at the pre-trib rapture and allow you to go through the Tribulation. Just because you don't think that it's right to escape the wrath.
But then again, Jesus said that the believers are to be found worthy of escape.. so.. are you going to be found worthy?
Revelation 3 says that it's those who keep His word of perseverance that he will keep such from the hour or timeframe of testing or Tribulation.
Now if the perseverance means to endure against doctrine that says that there is no pre-trib rapture..
Then perhaps you won't be raptured after all. Time will tell.
As I've said many times in other threads, I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well. But it's not biblical. The entire bible, old and new focus on the Lord's Day. And that will start when Christ returns at the 7th.
Just because you got talked out of a pre-trib rapture belief doesn't mean all ought to switch theirs.
I won't be because to this day nothing that a post-tribber has said has been Biblically sound enough to persuade me to cease my perseverance against it.
