I'm starting to lean towards post trib

SeventyOne · Sep 4, 2020

Micaiah-Imla said:
Not so.

Your are conflating the Tribulation with the Wrath of God.

We are delivered from wrath, not tribulation.

And to wait for his Son from heaven... even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22).

I'm referencing tribulation as a specific period yet to come, not the general trouble all believers are subject to. I'm not the one confusing events here.

SeventyOne · Sep 4, 2020

Micaiah-Imla said:
The references in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 and 15:50 are speaking of the same resurrection when the Lord comes.

One of the three he mentions is certainly that one.

There is no "wrath of Satan". It's the Tribulation that Satan inflicts on the saints who will not get the mark.

I have noticed that many who hold to false doctrines involving the coming of Christ artificially insert distinctions to parallel accounts of the same events.

No wrath of Satan? I'll just leave this here...

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Timtofly · Sep 4, 2020

Dave L said:
You are replacing Christianity with Phariseeism. There is no millennium.

So now John is a Pharisee?

Timtofly · Sep 4, 2020

Jamdoc said:
That's not what Revelation 20 says. Revelation 20 says that Gog and Magog surround the camp of the saints. They can't do that if the saints aren't on earth.

The "saints" resurrected from dying by being beheaded.

Timtofly · Sep 4, 2020

JacksBratt said:
What does the scripture say?

It says that after the rapture we will "forever be with our Lord" We cannot do that unless we join Him in the return at the end of the tribulation and stay and support Him during the millennial reign...

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lord God on the throne.

Timtofly · Sep 4, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I worry about other things in this life but when he says that we'll be somewhere other than where Jesus is for any period of time after death or the rapture I panic, it puts all other concerns into the background.

I'm just glad that scripture proves him wrong so any unsteadiness on that issue is resolved quickly.

Why panic over my words?

Jamdoc · Sep 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
The "saints" resurrected from dying by being beheaded.

There are 2 end times resurrections. 1 when Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers His elect as in Matthew 24:29-31 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Revelation 20:4-6, and I will point out, John 5:24-25

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The second comes after the Millennium, and it is for everyone, as shown in Revelation 20:12-13, and I will point out, John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is no resurrection after the rapture but before the final judgement, as those who are saved after the rapture, are not resurrected until just before final judgement.

Revelation 20:5

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Therefore, those who are raptured, come back down with Jesus and are on earth, and are surrounded by Gog and Magog, and Jesus delivers them.

Jamdoc · Sep 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
Why panic over my words?

Because you're suggesting separation from God for believers after they've been raptured, you're suggesting something that is contrary to scripture
1 Thessalonians 4:17

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 14:3

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That is part of the blessed hope, that when He comes for us, we will never be separate from Him again.

Micaiah-Imla · Sep 4, 2020

SeventyOne said:
One of the three he mentions is certainly that one.

No wrath of Satan? I'll just leave this here...

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Satan has been here for a while (see Job).

There is a Tribulation of those days that saints will face (Matthew 24:21,29), not referred to as "the wrath of Satan"; Then the wrath of God from which we are delivered from (Revelation 15:1).

I was strictly using the identifying wording of scripture regarding end-time events.

The wrath of Satan is not a new event in the end time; this was the spirit behind what I said.

SeventyOne · Sep 4, 2020

Micaiah-Imla said:
Satan has been here for a while (see Job).

There is a Tribulation of those days that saints will face (Matthew 24:21,29), not referred to as "the wrath of Satan"; Then the wrath of God from which we are delivered from (Revelation 15:1).

I was strictly using the identifying wording of scripture regarding end-time events.

The wrath of Satan is not a new event in the end time; this was the spirit behind what I said.

I'm really thinking you are discussing a different topic than I am.

Timtofly · Sep 4, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Because you're suggesting separation from God for believers after they've been raptured, you're suggesting something that is contrary to scripture
1 Thessalonians 4:17

John 14:3

That is part of the blessed hope, that when He comes for us, we will never be separate from Him again.

Revelation 7 says we are forever in the temple of God. God was in the Garden of Eden with Adam on a daily basis, until Adam disobeyed. The Garden of Eden, now Paradise, is for all of Adam's descendants who are the assembly of God in Christ. We will never leave Paradise, but it will come down from heaven as the New Jerusalem. We will never be separated from the Lord God.

Revelation 7:9-17
After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;
10 and they shouted,

“Victory to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

11 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders and the four living beings; they fell face down before the throne and worshipped God, saying,

12 “Amen!

“Praise and glory, wisdom and thanks,
honor and power and strength
belong to our God forever and ever!

“Amen!”

13 One of the elders asked me, “These people dressed in white robes — who are they, and where are they from?”
14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.

16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.

17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

Christ presents the church complete and glorified to God, at the opening of the 5th and 6th seals. Then the 144K are sealed in the church. They are the ones in the Gospels, as disciples who always goes where the Lamb goes. They are sealed in the church, before the opening of the 7th seal. After the seals are opened the Lamb's book of life is opened and names will be removed during the Trumpets, Thunders, and Satan's 3.5 years. If you have your head chopped off or chosen as a sheep or wheat, it is not the church. These are the souls in Revelation 20, who are given new incorruptible bodies, and they populate the earth and live for the whole 1000 year Millennium with The Lamb. It is all the 35th to 40th generations later that humans start to rebel. There are no sin nature humans alive. They all died and were placed in eternal Death (damnation) at the battle of Armageddon.

The earth is not desolate. It is a Lord's Day Sabbath. The earth is holy and set apart. Not perfect like pre-Flood perfection and sinful flesh mixed. The death penalty will be enforced, and those dead before 100, will be considered cursed by God. This is the final harvest resurrection. The earth will be desolate because all 7.7 billion people currently on earth will die one way or the other. The sheep and wheat are resurrected in Revelation 20 for the Millennium. The goats and tares will die and be resurrected into Death.

Any one left at Armageddon will all die by Jesus Christ Himself. That is why there is a resurrection in Revelation 20. If there was not a resurrection, then they earth would be desolate. Read Revelation 20, carefully. Because they are alive on earth, and after 1000 years, billions more than are alive today. Many of those in the last 300 years starting to think like Satan, that they can do life better than God can. When Satan is released, many will be ready to follow a rebellion led by Satan.

sovereigngrace · Sep 4, 2020

Jamdoc said:
There are 2 end times resurrections. 1 when Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers His elect as in Matthew 24:29-31 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Revelation 20:4-6, and I will point out, John 5:24-25

The second comes after the Millennium, and it is for everyone, as shown in Revelation 20:12-13, and I will point out, John 5:28-29

There is no resurrection after the rapture but before the final judgement, as those who are saved after the rapture, are not resurrected until just before final judgement.

Revelation 20:5

Therefore, those who are raptured, come back down with Jesus and are on earth, and are surrounded by Gog and Magog, and Jesus delivers them.

Same event. You are seeing double. You are advancing a view of Rev 20 that contradicts the rest of Scripture. The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

Jamdoc · Sep 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Same event. You are seeing double. You are advancing a view of Rev 20 that contradicts the rest of Scripture. The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

Scripture puts out 2 resurrections the first only for those who are saved, the second for a larger group, and SOME of those in the 2nd resurrection are saved.

John 5:29

If you only have 1 physical resurrection, while you spiritualize the first resurrection as something that happened in the past, then you have no way to explain why 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 depicts a resurrection and rapture of only the elect. Why Matthew 24:29-31 has a gathering of the elect, but no general resurrection of everyone to stand judgement, and you reach an absolutely ridiculous situation where Jesus returns, the dead in Christ rise first, and then everyone else dead rises up then Jesus immediately destroys the entire planet those newly resurrected are standing on. Meaning He'd have to resurrect them again in order for them to stand before the white throne of judgement. Why not wait till after the destruction to resurrect everyone to stand judgement?
But that's not what 1 Thessalonians 4:16 teaches.
That's not what Matthew 24 teaches, it teaches that the angels gather the elect, while the rest of the tribes of the earth mourn. So the resurrection happens before the destruction of the planet.
Your eschatology places it the immediate moment before the destruction of the planet, meaning people aren't standing for judgement before the throne.
Hebrews 9:27
It's not, "man dies, Jesus raises him then instantly kills him again, then raises him again for judgement"
It's the second death, not the third.

It's pretty clear to me that the first resurrection for believers happens before destruction of the earth, and they're in immortal bodies, while the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. At the end of which is a last rebellion and destruction by fire. THEN everyone else is resurrected. Not before destruction, after.

Jamdoc · Sep 5, 2020

Timtofly said:
Revelation 7 says we are forever in the temple of God. God was in the Garden of Eden with Adam on a daily basis, until Adam disobeyed. The Garden of Eden, now Paradise, is for all of Adam's descendants who are the assembly of God in Christ. We will never leave Paradise, but it will come down from heaven as the New Jerusalem. We will never be separated from the Lord God.

Revelation 7:9-17
After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;
10 and they shouted,

“Victory to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

11 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders and the four living beings; they fell face down before the throne and worshipped God, saying,

12 “Amen!

“Praise and glory, wisdom and thanks,
honor and power and strength
belong to our God forever and ever!

“Amen!”

13 One of the elders asked me, “These people dressed in white robes — who are they, and where are they from?”
14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.

16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.

17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.

Christ presents the church complete and glorified to God, at the opening of the 5th and 6th seals. Then the 144K are sealed in the church. They are the ones in the Gospels, as disciples who always goes where the Lamb goes. They are sealed in the church, before the opening of the 7th seal. After the seals are opened the Lamb's book of life is opened and names will be removed during the Trumpets, Thunders, and Satan's 3.5 years. If you have your head chopped off or chosen as a sheep or wheat, it is not the church. These are the souls in Revelation 20, who are given new incorruptible bodies, and they populate the earth and live for the whole 1000 year Millennium with The Lamb. It is all the 35th to 40th generations later that humans start to rebel. There are no sin nature humans alive. They all died and were placed in eternal Death (damnation) at the battle of Armageddon.

The earth is not desolate. It is a Lord's Day Sabbath. The earth is holy and set apart. Not perfect like pre-Flood perfection and sinful flesh mixed. The death penalty will be enforced, and those dead before 100, will be considered cursed by God. This is the final harvest resurrection. The earth will be desolate because all 7.7 billion people currently on earth will die one way or the other. The sheep and wheat are resurrected in Revelation 20 for the Millennium. The goats and tares will die and be resurrected into Death.

Any one left at Armageddon will all die by Jesus Christ Himself. That is why there is a resurrection in Revelation 20. If there was not a resurrection, then they earth would be desolate. Read Revelation 20, carefully. Because they are alive on earth, and after 1000 years, billions more than are alive today. Many of those in the last 300 years starting to think like Satan, that they can do life better than God can. When Satan is released, many will be ready to follow a rebellion led by Satan.

Nothing in Revelation 7 says anything about them not following Jesus back down to Earth
but Revelation 20 does have a camp of the saints that the wicked surround, on earth.
Why would you want to spend 1000 years in "heaven" when the very person who makes it heaven is not there?

Dave L · Sep 5, 2020

Timtofly said:
So now John is a Pharisee?

You interpret John as any Pharisee would. Remember, Jesus, blinded all but the elect so they could not understand the bible. That's why their popular Millennium ideas are so misleading today.

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Scripture puts out 2 resurrections the first only for those who are saved, the second for a larger group, and SOME of those in the 2nd resurrection are saved.

John 5:29

If you only have 1 physical resurrection, while you spiritualize the first resurrection as something that happened in the past, then you have no way to explain why 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 depicts a resurrection and rapture of only the elect. Why Matthew 24:29-31 has a gathering of the elect, but no general resurrection of everyone to stand judgement, and you reach an absolutely ridiculous situation where Jesus returns, the dead in Christ rise first, and then everyone else dead rises up then Jesus immediately destroys the entire planet those newly resurrected are standing on. Meaning He'd have to resurrect them again in order for them to stand before the white throne of judgement. Why not wait till after the destruction to resurrect everyone to stand judgement?
But that's not what 1 Thessalonians 4:16 teaches.
That's not what Matthew 24 teaches, it teaches that the angels gather the elect, while the rest of the tribes of the earth mourn. So the resurrection happens before the destruction of the planet.
Your eschatology places it the immediate moment before the destruction of the planet, meaning people aren't standing for judgement before the throne.
Hebrews 9:27
It's not, "man dies, Jesus raises him then instantly kills him again, then raises him again for judgement"
It's the second death, not the third.

It's pretty clear to me that the first resurrection for believers happens before destruction of the earth, and they're in immortal bodies, while the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. At the end of which is a last rebellion and destruction by fire. THEN everyone else is resurrected. Not before destruction, after.

You do not seem to have the ability to read and accept what others write and teach. I have repeatedly showed you my position which is in keeping with other Scripture. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

The resurrection of man is always depicted in Scripture as general and final. Your theology fights the sacred text. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise (anistemi Strong’s 450) in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up (egeiro Strong’s 1453) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up (or) anistemi (Strong’s 450) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the Queen of the South and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

sovereigngrace · Sep 5, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Scripture puts out 2 resurrections the first only for those who are saved, the second for a larger group, and SOME of those in the 2nd resurrection are saved.

John 5:29

If you only have 1 physical resurrection, while you spiritualize the first resurrection as something that happened in the past, then you have no way to explain why 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 depicts a resurrection and rapture of only the elect. Why Matthew 24:29-31 has a gathering of the elect, but no general resurrection of everyone to stand judgement, and you reach an absolutely ridiculous situation where Jesus returns, the dead in Christ rise first, and then everyone else dead rises up then Jesus immediately destroys the entire planet those newly resurrected are standing on. Meaning He'd have to resurrect them again in order for them to stand before the white throne of judgement. Why not wait till after the destruction to resurrect everyone to stand judgement?
But that's not what 1 Thessalonians 4:16 teaches.
That's not what Matthew 24 teaches, it teaches that the angels gather the elect, while the rest of the tribes of the earth mourn. So the resurrection happens before the destruction of the planet.
Your eschatology places it the immediate moment before the destruction of the planet, meaning people aren't standing for judgement before the throne.
Hebrews 9:27
It's not, "man dies, Jesus raises him then instantly kills him again, then raises him again for judgement"
It's the second death, not the third.

It's pretty clear to me that the first resurrection for believers happens before destruction of the earth, and they're in immortal bodies, while the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. At the end of which is a last rebellion and destruction by fire. THEN everyone else is resurrected. Not before destruction, after.

Thanks for totally side-stepping every argument I presented in #172 that forbids your doctrine. You must for your theory to fit.

Premils have no answer to the repeated and explicitly clear climactic evidence of Scripture. I refer you back to my avoided post: I'm starting to lean towards post trib

Timtofly · Sep 5, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Nothing in Revelation 7 says anything about them not following Jesus back down to Earth
but Revelation 20 does have a camp of the saints that the wicked surround, on earth.
Why would you want to spend 1000 years in "heaven" when the very person who makes it heaven is not there?

Revelation 20 is self explanatory. Read who is resurrected. Those who were beheaded in the previous 3.5 years of Satan's control and destruction of all that is holy. You could claim all those beheaded the last 1990 years, but that would take them and leave those who were not beheaded in the temple of God. The church in the temple are complete before the 7th seal is opened. After that those who are righteous remain righteous. Those who are filthy remain filthy. What does getting one's head cut off and refusing 666 mean?

Timtofly · Sep 5, 2020

Dave L said:
You interpret John as any Pharisee would. Remember, Jesus, blinded all but the elect so they could not understand the bible. That's why their popular Millennium ideas are so misleading today.

No, you interpret John as being a Pharisee by falsely accusing brethren, with a totalling different kingdom. The Pharisees were looking for the OT kingdom. They did not make up this kingdom. They just got the timing wrong. Now theology today like amill and post mill get the timing all wrong and claim it already happened back when the original Pharisees claimed it would happen. This is modern day Phariseeism. Peter claims in 2 Peter 3 it will happen at the end, not during his time period. Peter and John were not Pharisees, and neither are Pre-mill.

Modern day Pharisees are the ones claiming Revelation 20 happened 1990 years ago when the original Pharisees thought it would. Thus your theology lines up perfectly with Pharisee teachings.

BABerean2 · Sep 5, 2020

Timtofly said:
No, you interpret John as being a Pharisee by falsely accusing brethren, with a totalling different kingdom. The Pharisees were looking for the OT kingdom. They did not make up this kingdom. They just got the timing wrong. Now theology today like amill and post mill get the timing all wrong and claim it already happened back when the original Pharisees claimed it would happen. This is modern day Phariseeism. Peter claims in 2 Peter 3 it will happen at the end, not during his time period. Peter and John were not Pharisees, and neither are Pre-mill.

Modern day Pharisees are the ones claiming Revelation 20 happened 1990 years ago when the original Pharisees thought it would. Thus your theology lines up perfectly with Pharisee teachings.

Why don't you try to find out what others actually believe, instead of adding your own inventions?

Pastor Sam Storms on Amillennialism:

.

I'm starting to lean towards post trib

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