Covenant and New Covenant theology

Guojing · Sep 4, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you claiming the passage below is not about the past?

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Beginning in the first five books of the Bible and then "all" the prophets, He expounded to them the scriptures about Himself.

This reveals the fact that the whole Bible is about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Was this true in the past?

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Let's not go thru this non-convergent discussion again.

Jesus death on the cross was not a mystery
Jesus resurrection from the dead was not a mystery.

The mystery is that Jews and Gentiles are equal in the Body of Christ, after his resurrection. That was first revealed to Paul.

BABerean2 · Sep 4, 2020

Guojing said:
The mystery is that Jews and Gentiles are equal in the Body of Christ, after his resurrection. That was first revealed to Paul.

Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

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mkgal1 · Sep 4, 2020

Guojing said:
This is where David is prophesying about the coming Christ who will fufill the Law and die on the cross as the perfect sacrifice.

Instead, are you using this psalm, out of its context, to convince yourself that during the OT, no one needed to offer sacrifices and offerings when they sin, since David is saying God don't desire them?

In context....this is about David (although David is a shadow....a type....of Christ). King David was the mediator between God and the people.

This Psalm reveals what God truly desired from David (we're not speaking of others). David was unique in the way that he was a priestly king that God was in covenant with.

Can you read the Psalm again to answer my question (that you had actually asked me to form in post #995)? What is it that God truly desires? We're informed that God took no delight in sacrifices and offerings....but it's also disclosed what does bring Him delight.

Also....the difference between framing this question with the focus on a need for ritual sacrifices....instead of a focus on what truly pleases God..... puts the focus on the efforts of humanity instead of on the goodness of God.

Psalm 40 is all about how grateful David was to God for rescuing him and David's desire to express his gratitude.

keras · Sep 4, 2020

Guojing said:
So now, you are able to understand the difference between time past and but now? That is great.

But do you?
The Jewish people now have no claim to an inside track to redemption.
The belief of their salvation because of their [supposed] Israelite descent, has no validity.
Only a remnant of them will survive the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18 Those few who have chosen to believe in Jesus now.

Guojing · Sep 4, 2020

keras said:
But do you?
The Jewish people now have no claim to an inside track to redemption.
The belief of their salvation because of their [supposed] Israelite descent, has no validity.
Only a remnant of them will survive the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18 Those few who have chosen to believe in Jesus now.

No one said they have now.

I was always contrasting time past, which is before Paul, and but now.

It seems it is only now that you are beginning to read my posts, but better late than never I guess.

Guojing · Sep 4, 2020

mkgal1 said:
In context....this is about David (although David is a shadow....a type....of Christ). King David was the mediator between God and the people.

This Psalm reveals what God truly desired from David (we're not speaking of others). David was unique in the way that he was a priestly king that God was in covenant with.

Can you read the Psalm again to answer my question (that you had actually asked me to form in post #995)? What is it that God truly desires? We're informed that God took no delight in sacrifices and offerings....but it's also disclosed what does bring Him delight.

Also....the difference between framing this question with the focus on a need for ritual sacrifices....instead of a focus on what truly pleases God..... puts the focus on the efforts of humanity instead of on the goodness of God.

Psalm 40 is all about how grateful David was to God for rescuing him and David's desire to express his gratitude.

I already answered your question, by stating that Psalms 40 is a prophecy of the coming Christ, and foretold what Hebrews would have stated, that the sacrifices of animals only covered sins, until Jesus on the cross was the perfect sacrifice that took away sins completely.

That work by Jesus on the cross truly pleased God. Isaiah 53:10

You are using Psalms 40 out of context, to form your belief that, during the OT, none of the Jews needed to do animal sacrifices for their sins.

I can answer your question but I cannot understand the answer for you, if you don't wish to do so.

Guojing · Sep 4, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

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So you belief is that, just because Hosea prophesied about it, it implies everyone in the OT understood the mystery already?

I have already addressed this silly argument previously. But if you don't want to accept it, let us move on.

mkgal1 · Sep 4, 2020

Guojing said:
I already answered your question, by stating that Psalms 40 is a prophecy of the coming Christ, and foretold what Hebrews would have stated, that the sacrifices of animals only covered sins, until Jesus on the cross was the perfect sacrifice that took away sins completely.

You are using Psalms 40 out of context, to form your belief that, during the OT, none of the Jews needed to do animal sacrifices for their sins.

I can answer your question but I cannot understand the answer for you, if you don't wish to do so.

That isn't the context:

Psalm 40
2He lifted me [David] up from the pit of despair,

out of the miry clay;

He set my feet upon a rock,

and made my footsteps firm.

3He put a new song in my mouth,

a hymn of praise to our God.

Many will see and fear

and put their trust in the LORD.

V. 9 I [David] have told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation; behold, I have not restrained my lips, as you know, O LORD.

V. 10 I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and your saving help. I do not conceal your love and your faithfulness from the great assembly.

BTW....I've never stated that "during the OT, none of the Jews needed to do animal sacrifices for their sins". That's the focus I'm trying to avoid and, as Psalm 40 is emphasizing, instead focus on God's grace and goodness.

Guojing · Sep 4, 2020

mkgal1 said:
That isn't the context:

Psalm 40
2He lifted me [David] up from the pit of despair,

out of the miry clay;

He set my feet upon a rock,

and made my footsteps firm.

3He put a new song in my mouth,

a hymn of praise to our God.

Many will see and fear

and put their trust in the LORD.

V. 9 I [David] have told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation; behold, I have not restrained my lips, as you know, O LORD.

V. 10 I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and your saving help. I do not conceal your love and your faithfulness from the great assembly.

BTW....I've never stated that "during the OT, none of the Jews needed to do animal sacrifices for their sins". That's the focus I'm trying to avoid and, as Psalm 40 is emphasizing, instead focus on God's grace and goodness.

Alright then, so long as you agree that in time past, OT Jews needed to follow the Law of Moses, including animal sacrifices, to be right with God, as part of their covenant with God, both of us are in agreement here.

Don't get me wrong, it was still always grace, even in time past. God extends grace towards the nation Israel and commanded animal sacrifices to cover all their sins. When the Jews offered that in obedience to what God commanded, God regards that as faith in him.

But now, yes, I certainly agree with you that animal sacrifices are no longer necessary because Christ have died on the cross for all our sins. (Romans 4:5)

BABerean2 · Sep 4, 2020

Guojing said:
So you belief is that, just because Hosea prophesied about it, it implies everyone in the OT understood the mystery already?

No. I said it was not a mystery to Hosea.

The promoters of your doctrine claim nobody knew about it before the Apostle Paul. Based on Romans 9:24-27, they are wrong.

If you want to label this error as "silly", it reveals a lack of effort to find the truth based on scripture.

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Guojing · Sep 4, 2020

BABerean2 said:
No. I said it was not a mystery to Hosea.

The promoters of your doctrine claim nobody knew about it before the Apostle Paul. Based on Romans 9:24-27, they are wrong.

If you want to label this error as "silly", it reveals a lack of effort to find the truth based on scripture.

.

Paul disagrees with you that Hosea understood the mystery

Ephesians 3
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

BABerean2 · Sep 5, 2020

Guojing said:
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Is Paul contrasting the average person, to God's Apostles and prophets in the verse above?

If not, Paul was talking out of both sides of his mouth based on what he said in Romans 9:24-27.

Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

Was Hosea a prophet of God?

Either Paul was confused, or you are confused?

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Guojing · Sep 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Is Paul contrasting the average person, to God's Apostles and prophets in the verse above?

If not, Paul was talking out of both sides of his mouth based on what he said in Romans 9:24-27.

Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

Was Hosea a prophet of God?

Either Paul was confused, or you are confused?

.

As I already stated, the OT prophets wrote many things down, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

It does not follow that they also understood the actual meaning of what they wrote.

Because you love to anticipate revelation, you find it difficult to understand this.

BABerean2 · Sep 5, 2020

Guojing said:
Because you love to anticipate revelation, you find it difficult to understand this.

There is always something wrong with those of us who dare to disagree with modern Dispensational Theology.

Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson reveals this fact below.

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mkgal1 · Sep 5, 2020

Guojing said:
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This is the mystery revealed at just the right time (in 34 AD - after the 490 years for Daniel's people had expired).

Another aspect of this mystery that was being revealed in the first century was that believers were living stones of the New Temple being built....with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone.

Peter had said:

1 Peter 2:5 ~ And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God.

Notice the timing (this is not in the future):

Ephesians 2:13~ But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

mkgal1 · Sep 5, 2020

Guojing said:
Alright then, so long as you agree that in time past, OT Jews needed to follow the Law of Moses, including animal sacrifices, to be right with God, as part of their covenant with God, both of us are in agreement here.

The ancient Israelites were in covenant with God. That covenant itself caused them to be "right with God". In their identity with the Israelite assembly, they acted faithfully in order to *maintain* their status as "right with God".

I recently read this article that explains this:

What is the new perspective?
The claim of the new perspective is that first-century Judaism was not a merit -based religion but a covenant community created by God’s grace. Far from suffering the affliction of an introspective conscience, and a struggle to keep the law by works-righteousness, mainstream Judaism understood that through God’s covenant they were already right with him. The law (nomos) was not a means of getting saved but of staying saved. Keeping God’s law was the appropriate response to God’s covenant mercy. ~ N.T. Wright and the New Perspective on Paul by Ligon Duncan

mkgal1 · Sep 5, 2020

Guojing said:
This is where David is prophesying about the coming Christ who will fufill the Law and die on the cross as the perfect sacrifice.

Instead, are you using this psalm, out of its context, to convince yourself that during the OT, no one needed to offer sacrifices and offerings when they sin, since David is saying God don't desire them?

The question i asked was:

"Okay. Based only on this passage, what do you see that God desires from humanity?"

mkgal1 · Sep 5, 2020

Guojing said:
Paul wrote Galatians after the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15, where it was decided that Paul's gospel was legitimate and the only gospel for gentile believers to follow.

That wasn't the conclusion of the Jerusalem Council - that Paul had a separate and opposing gospel. This is from Acts 15 (and, personally, I do not believe Paul taught against this). Paul, Peter, and all the disciples were teaching the same Gospel. This is Good News....this is the Gospel:

Acts 15

7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”12The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:16‘After this I will return and rebuild

the fallen tent of David.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will restore it,17so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,

says the Lord who does these things18that have been known for ages.’b 19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

Guojing · Sep 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
That wasn't the conclusion of the Jerusalem Council - that Paul had a separate and opposing gospel. This is from Acts 15 (and, personally, I do not believe Paul taught against this). Paul, Peter, and all the disciples were teaching the same Gospel. This is Good News....this is the Gospel:

Acts 15

7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”12The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:16‘After this I will return and rebuild

the fallen tent of David.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will restore it,17so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,

says the Lord who does these things18that have been known for ages.’b 19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

You already quoted vs 19

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

Let me ask you then, "Did James also announce that the Jews who believe also did not have to keep the Law, as Peter was trying to suggest in vs11?"

The answer was obvious later on, in Acts 21:20

Guojing · Sep 5, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The question i asked was:

"Okay. Based only on this passage, what do you see that God desires from humanity?"

God desired that the perfect Man, from humanity, would come to offer the sacrifice he truly desired, which was fulfilled by Christ, as our representative.

David was prophesying about the future, where Jesus would arrive to offer that sacrifice.

That is my answer to your question.

Covenant and New Covenant theology

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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