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Saint Steven

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That is a total misunderstanding of the gospel. Everyone can know there is God if they want to. Atheists do not say the truth. If any want to see, they will see there is God behind everything. And in seeking anything about God, they will recognize their separation from God. They need repentance from how they lived. None of that takes hearing of Jesus. Believers who have heard of Jesus and have come to him are supposed to reach those others, they will be used. It is about us reaching them, and they wil respond coming to Jesus. It is not at all about people not hearing about Jesus and perishing for that. Those perishing do so because of their sins in their life, without ever repenting.
Can you see the contradiction in your response?

My post was to challenge the claim most Christians make about the gospel.
That everyone knows the gospel and is therefore without excuse. Not true. The fact that countless billions have NOT been led to Christ by other Christians is completely overlooked.

In a sense you are agreeing with me. God reaches all humankind through our God-given conscience. See Romans 2:14-15 and Romans 5:13

And if you bring the elect into the equation, you now have the rest of humankind predestined to damnation. (those who were not the elect by definition) Is that the plan of God for humankind?

Saint Steven said:
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife having never even heard the name of Jesus. Will they be tormented for all of eternity with no hope of escape?
 
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FredVB

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Everyone can know there is God if they want to. Atheists do not say the truth. If any want to see, they will see there is God behind everything. And in seeking anything about God, they will recognize their separation from God. They need repentance from how they lived. None of that takes hearing of Jesus. Believers who have heard of Jesus and have come to him are supposed to reach those others, they will be used. It is about us reaching them, and they wil respond coming to Jesus. It is not at all about people not hearing about Jesus and perishing for that. Those perishing do so because of their sins in their life, without ever repenting.

Saint Steven said:
Can you see the contradiction in your response?

My post was to challenge the claim most Christians make about the gospel.
That everyone knows the gospel and is therefore without excuse. Not true. The fact that countless billions have NOT been led to Christ by other Christians is completely overlooked.

In a sense you are agreeing with me. God reaches all humankind through our God-given conscience. See Romans 2:14-15 and Romans 5:13

And if you bring the elect into the equation, you now have the rest of humankind predestined to damnation. (those who were not the elect by definition) Is that the plan of God for humankind?

Saint Steven said:
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife having never even heard the name of Jesus. Will they be tormented for all of eternity with no hope of escape?

I am seeing now you are attempting to argue for universal salvation, as if it was biblical. Salvation is the narrow way, those of the wide way of the many perish.

There was no contradiction from me that you show. You misrepresent what is said for your argument. Not everyone knows the gospel, and that was not said. Deal with what was said. Everyone can know there is God if they want to. And you do not know the actual count of who has not been led to Christ, that is not possible. As anyone can know there is God, they are without excuse to reject God and put anything in place of God. Those that do not do that God can show needed things, like repenting from sinful life that separates any from God, and with trusting this one God, the Creator of all, live in that way speaking of the one God. These God would reach for being saved, however God does that. You cannot know who or how many there were like that, in this life. That is not the same as universal salvation, which is not shown in the Bible. We who are real believers should reach others with the gospel of salvation in Christ, who they need, this is the same gospel which should reach all, though many are unrepentant and are without excuse, and there won't be universal salvation as shown in the Bible.

Election is about those God foreknew, who God predestines to be conformed to the image of Christ. So God knows from the beginning who responds to the grace from God through Christ, and those who don't are without excuse.
 
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Saint Steven

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I am seeing now you are attempting to argue for universal salvation, as if it was biblical.
Well, it is biblical.
All three doctrinal views of the final judgment are biblical. You may not agree, but they are biblical.
 
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Saint Steven

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And you do not know the actual count of who has not been led to Christ, that is not possible.
Right. Countless billions. That you claim will burn for all eternity. Right?
 
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Saint Steven

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Election is about those God foreknew, who God predestines to be conformed to the image of Christ. So God knows from the beginning who responds to the grace from God through Christ, and those who don't are without excuse.
Therefore countless billions are predestined to eternal torment. Right?
 
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Well, it is biblical.
All three doctrinal views of the final judgment are biblical. You may not agree, but they are biblical.

I gave that post an 'optimistic' rating because I hope and believe in God's great promise that every knee will bow and every tongue confess, thereby eliminating 2 of the 3 views.
 
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Der Alte

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I gave that post an 'optimistic' rating because I hope and believe in God's great promise that every knee will bow and every tongue confess, thereby eliminating 2 of the 3 views.
One can make the Bible "say" almost anything they want it to by quoting/alluding to disparate verses of scripture out-of-context as has been done here.
Contrary to what UR-its say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]
After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.

24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool as the enemies of Joshua did and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.


 
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Saint Steven

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I gave that post an 'optimistic' rating because I hope and believe in God's great promise that every knee will bow and every tongue confess, thereby eliminating 2 of the 3 views.
Yes. We'll find out in the end. If Damnationism was right, I'll have to apologize for having such high opinion of God. - lol

I still would rather be a Universalist and be wrong than a Damnationist and be right.
 
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Der Alte

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Saint Steven said:
Yes. We'll find out in the end. If Damnationism was right, I'll have to apologize for having such high opinion of God. - lol
Saint Steven said:
I still would rather be a Universalist and be wrong than a Damnationist and be right.
Fortunately God is not influenced by the fickle foibles of fallible humanity. God does not need our approval or permission.
 
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Der Alte

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Saint Steven said:
Therefore countless billions are predestined to eternal torment. Right?
If one were to read the whole Bible instead of only the litany of out-of-context proof texts as heterodox religious groups do one would know that the quoted post is false.
>>>Psalms 19:1-4
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
>>>Romans 1:18-24
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
>>>Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
>>>Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 
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FredVB

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FredVB said:
I am seeing now you are attempting to argue for universal salvation, as if it was biblical. Salvation is the narrow way, those of the wide way of the many perish.

There was no contradiction from me that you show. You misrepresent what is said for your argument. Not everyone knows the gospel, and that was not said. Deal with what was said. Everyone can know there is God if they want to. And you do not know the actual count of who has not been led to Christ, that is not possible. As anyone can know there is God, they are without excuse to reject God and put anything in place of God. Those that do not do that God can show needed things, like repenting from sinful life that separates any from God, and with trusting this one God, the Creator of all, live in that way speaking of the one God. These God would reach for being saved, however God does that. You cannot know who or how many there were like that, in this life. That is not the same as universal salvation, which is not shown in the Bible. We who are real believers should reach others with the gospel of salvation in Christ, who they need, this is the same gospel which should reach all, though many are unrepentant and are without excuse, and there won't be universal salvation as shown in the Bible.

Election is about those God foreknew, who God predestines to be conformed to the image of Christ. So God knows from the beginning who responds to the grace from God through Christ, and those who don't are without excuse.

Saint Steven said:
Well, it is biblical.
All three doctrinal views of the final judgment are biblical. You may not agree, but they are biblical.

Matthew 25:41-46

Revelation 20:12-15

I see it, final judgment, darkness, Book of Life, lake of fire. Just images? Probably. But nothing for universalism. What did I miss?

Right. Countless billions. That you claim will burn for all eternity. Right?

What billions do you definitely know about?
Where is it seen I said that? Nowhere. Because I never say that.

Therefore countless billions are predestined to eternal torment. Right?

I don't claim that there are billions of people in the past, who all perish. I don't speak for predestination to eternal torment, either. You seem to read another viewpoint into mine. I do say any people have some opportunity to come to know of God and come to repentance, God would show those ones doing that the way. And believers are to be used of God for being there for that. We have responsibility. But God can use any way for that.
 
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Charlie24

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Yes. We'll find out in the end. If Damnationism was right, I'll have to apologize for having such high opinion of God. - lol

I still would rather be a Universalist and be wrong than a Damnationist and be right.

If Universalism is false, and I most certainly believe it is, how will God judge the teacher of such heresies?

Only God knows how many believe this, believing there will be a second chance after this life to repent. If there is not a second chance, it is found nowhere in scripture, then where does this leave the believers of Universalism on judgement day who have chosen not to repent on this side of the grave.

The damnable heresy of Universalism is people putting off repentance in this life believing they can repent after death, suffer a temporal punishment, and then be gathered into God's rest.

Ecc. 8:4
For to him who is joined to all the living there is hope...

So Steven, a crowd is gathered before God on judgement day, they are pointing at you saying, he told us all would be joined to you Lord after an age of suffering.

There is no such thing written in all of God's Word. How will you answer God?
 
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Der Alte

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If Universalism is false, and I most certainly believe it is, how will God judge the teacher of such heresies?
Only God knows how many believe this, believing there will be a second chance after this life to repent. If there is not a second chance, it is found nowhere in scripture, then where does this leave the believers of Universalism on judgement day who have chosen not to repent on this side of the grave.
The damnable heresy of Universalism is people putting off repentance in this life believing they can repent after death, suffer a temporal punishment, and then be gathered into God's rest.
Ecc. 8:4
For to him who is joined to all the living there is hope...
So Steven, a crowd is gathered before God on judgement day, they are pointing at you saying, he told us all would be joined to you Lord after an age of suffering.
There is no such thing written in all of God's Word. How will you answer God?
I have asked the UR-ites how the transformation of sinner to believer after death is supposed to happen. I have never received a satisfactory answer.
I know that in this country the recidivism rate, those who return to prison after being released, is 60+%. Prison does not reform a majority of prisoners so how will these same people react after they are punished by God?
I know that God can instantly transform the vilest sinner so I am baffled, if UR is true, why God would allow all the horrible sins that are committed knowing that He will punish them for an indeterminate period then suddenly inexplicably they become faithful believers.
If God is somehow going to change sinners why doesn't He do it in this life or does He want to punish them?
 
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Saint Steven

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Matthew 25:41-46

Revelation 20:12-15

I see it, final judgment, darkness, Book of Life, lake of fire. Just images? Probably. But nothing for universalism. What did I miss?
Good question, thanks.
Here are a collection of scriptures that raise some important questions.
A Damnationist will say that they are taken out of context and can't mean what they plainly say. Thus claiming there is NO scriptural support for Universal Restoration.
But I'll be happy to discuss any one of them with you. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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Saint Steven

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If Universalism is false, and I most certainly believe it is, how will God judge the teacher of such heresies?
Let's suppose for the sake of discussion that you were torturing people in your basement. Just to be clear, I am not claiming such a thing about you. Let's also say that I know you well enough to not believe that these claims are true. (but not well enough to know the real truth)

When I come to your defense to protect your character will you be angry with me? Or would you prefer that I find out and report the truth about you?

If I am wrong about Universalism, I may need to apologize for defending God's good character against Damnationism.

But it seems that you prefer that I use scare tactics to frighten people into submission to God.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?
 
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Saint Steven

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The damnable heresy of Universalism...
Did you really write that? (seems so)

If Universalism is anything, it is certainly not damnable. On the contrary.

And what is heresy?
Was Jesus a heretic by the religious standards of his day? What about John the Baptist? Martin Luther? All the Saints that were martyred? Heretics one and all.
 
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Saint Steven

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Ecc. 8:4
For to him who is joined to all the living there is hope...

So Steven, a crowd is gathered before God on judgement day, they are pointing at you saying, he told us all would be joined to you Lord after an age of suffering.

There is no such thing written in all of God's Word. How will you answer God?
There is biblical support for all three views of the final judgment. Even you are not 100 percent sure which one is correct.

AND your accusations against Universalists is false. We are not telling anyone to neglect the opportunity for a relationship with God now. We agree that those who do neglect such an opportunity will suffer for it. Our disagreement is over what that suffering will involve. You claim it means eternal torment with no hope of escape, even for those who have never even heard the name of Jesus. Countless billions lost for all eternity, predestined to everlasting destruction. Am I misstating your position? Correct me if I am wrong about you. Thanks.

What should the God who taught us to love our enemies do about his enemies? Incinerate them? This is the absolute horror of Damnationism. Where did this come from?

Is this the gospel?
Receive the free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. If you don't, God will incinerate you.
 
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Charlie24

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Steven, it is plain to see in these recent posts that you do not understand the Grace of God. There is no acceptable excuse for frustrating His Grace.
When Christ died on that cross, He died for the sins of the entire world, past, present, and future. But to benefit from His Grace one must repent, and for the right reasons.

There are untold millions, past, present, and future who simply will not do so. As the scripture says, "they will not see the Kingdom of God."

If we're going to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ let's at least make His Grace understood. There will be no excuse for not doing so.
 
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Saint Steven

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... to benefit from His Grace one must repent, and for the right reasons.
Is fear of hell the right reason?
That sounds more like extortion to me than grace.
Thus turning our heavenly Father into a gangster godfather.
 
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Charlie24

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Is fear of hell the right reason?
That sounds more like extortion to me than grace.
Thus turning our heavenly Father into a gangster godfather.

Everyone in hell and going to be in hell sent themselves there, God didn't do it!!!

They refused His Grace, everyone of them.
 
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