What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 2:21
And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Another way to put it.

Jesus had the fulness of the Godhead in his body.
Jesus was in Mary's body.
Jesus being fully God and fully Man.
Therefore, Mary was in fact on earth and in time,
The Mother of Jesus who is God.

Bob Carabbio said:

"Mother of God" is a silly, but understandable "Spin" the the Catholic Denominations tie on Mary for their own agenda (making her into something that she's NOT). WE all agree that Mary was Jesus' mom, and that the Circumstances of Jesus' birth were miraculous. WE also agree that since Jesus was the incarnation of "THE WORD" (who was with God, and who WAS God) that the "title" has an understandable "Religious rationalization" associated with it.

However GOd doesn't HAVE a "mother" Mary is The Mother of JESUS. ANd that's the end of the story. SHe gave birth, raised Him, and when Jesus entered His ministry, she thought he'd lost his mind, and went out with her family to drag Him out of the public view. None of them had a CLUE what Jesus was all about. His OWN half brothers didn't think HE was anything special!!!

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Jesus is fully God and fully Man. You can not divide his being until James 2:26.
Jesus also rose physically from the dead.

chevyontheriver said:

Yes. Exactly.

I know that verse well. It's part of Vespers, the evening prayer of the Liturgy of the Hours. I am not at all a stranger to that verse. I accept it as absolutely true.

I agree that she spoke of 'my' savior, and that she needed a savior. I fully agree. I consider the application of that salvation to have been at the beginning of her life, before she fell and sinned, and not after she fell and sinned. Still saved, but saved from falling or ever sinning. It's as if you are required to detour around a sinkhole that other motorists have driven into. They need to be rescued from the sinkhole to be saved. You were saved from ever falling into the sinkhole. It may be less dramatic, but you too were saved from that sinkhole and you were saved by the same emergency services that pulled those others out of the hole. Mary was a sinless person who would have ended up just like the rest of us sinners but for her savior working in her life.

I think for that you have to look to the same Song of Mary for some hints. There it says "all generations shall call me blessed" and "He that is mighty hath done great things to me". This isn't proof, but it is an indicator that there is something very special about Mary. She is not a run of the mill mother of a Jewish boy. But those are just hints. I look several verses earlier, to the annunciation, starting in verse 26.

It is the 'full of grace' that indicates to me a fullness of grace that has no room at all for the emptiness of sin. The angel Gabriel comes to her as a messenger, but here a mighty archangel refers to her as graced. Ordinarily it would be the other way around. But Mary isn't ordinary. It wasn't an ordinary greeting either. The angel said she was completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. One can downplay the meaning of the word 'kecharitōmenē' but I think it should be read otherwise than as a mere favor. It's the import of this one word that tells me Mary was sinless. It was so interpreted by St. Thomas Aquinas, who held that Mary never sinned, but was saved at least from right after the moment of her conception.

Here is an article that explains that interesting word 'kecharitōmenē': What Do We Mean By Full of Grace?.

Matt Slick, on the contrary, does a clever contrarian view by back translating 'full of grace' = 'gratia plena' to 'plaras karitos' and then equating Mary with Stephen. And then never translating 'kecharitōmenē', which is the real word in question. See that one here: Mary, Full of Grace, and Luke 1:28 | CARM.org

Anyhow, that is the Biblical source for my thinking that Mary was sinless. And to no surprise it is hotly contested by many modern Protestants, who need to figure out how to make the Bible say what they want it to say, and in doing so minimize Mary, who they seldom would affirm as blessed although all generations will do so.

Good to hear from you.

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Luke 1:43
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Animus definition is - a usually prejudiced and often spiteful or malevolent ill will.

Bob Carabbio said:

But you also from the Biblical text also can't claim that Jesus WALKED AS GOD hiding in a man suit pretending to be human. God can't be tempted - But Jesus COULD BE AND WAS just like us.



Sure He did, but his POST Ressurection body was able to play neat tricks that his PRE-Ressuraction body couldn't. Aparently we'll be LIKE HIM in that respect on the other side -

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Jesus was tested, not tempted by his flesh.

What Does the Bible Mean by Temptation?

Copyright 1990 by Bob and Gretchen Passantino.

1. God cannot be tempted (James 1:13)
   

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1. God can be tempted (or there would be no reason for us to be warned against tempting God -- Deuteronomy 6:16).
   
   
2. If God cannot be tempted (see 1 above), and Jesus is God, then does that mean he cannot be tempted? (James 1:13)
   
   
3. But Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15).
   
   
4. God tempts no one (James 1:13).
   
   
5. God tempted someone (David, to number Israel -- 2 Samuel 24:1).
   

How are these biblical statements reconciled, both within scripture and consistent with God's character?

The answers to these statements can be categorized in two major ways: vocabulary (what words were used in the original, and what meanings those words have), and context (how the words were used in each passage).

Vocabulary

Temptation has many synonyms (equivalent words) in English. It can mean (among other things) test, proof, experiment, trial, and enticement. The main Greek (New Testament language) words for temptation are formed from peiraz and dokimaz , both words of which also occur in the Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The main Hebrew words are n s�h, s rap, and b han, and one word which relates primarily to the genuineness of coins, sig. Comparing the Septuagint equivalents to the original Hebrew helps us understand the overall biblical use of the terms.

[Those who wish more information on the Greek or Hebrew should see The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Vol. 3), Colin Brown, ed., Zondervan, 1978, pp. 798-810; or The Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, Lawrence O. Richards, Zondervan, 1985, pp. 593-594.]

Both peiraz and dokimaz can mean test or proof. In addition, peiraz includes the ideas of temptation or enticement (to sin) and of a trial. Dokimaz also carries the connotation of approval or genuineness.

From this vocabulary study, we see that "temptation" can mean test, proof, or to establish genuineness; not only "enticement to sin."

Context

Armed with our vocabulary study, we can look at the context of each of our six statements.

God Cannot Be Tempted

James 1:13 says, "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." Looking at the context, we see that the statement is not merely "God cannot be tempted," but "God cannot be tempted by evil." In other words, God cannot be enticed to sin (Greek apeir st s). James 1:13 affirms that God cannot sin, but is completely holy and good.

God Can Be Tempted

When Deuteronomy 6:16 warns us against "tempting God," the context refers on the one hand to testing the Israelites' faithfulness and, on the other hand, to testing God's righteous judgment. Paraphrased, the passage means, "Don't test God's righteous judgment by worship-ping idols unless you are willing to be wiped off the face of the earth" (v. 15).

The reconciliation of the two statements? God cannot be enticed to sin; he is holy and good. God's consistent, holy, good reaction to idolatry is righteous judgment. One should not "test" God's character by sinning, since God will "pass the test" of righteousness and punish the sinner (see also Jeremiah 18:7-10).

Can Jesus Be God and Be Tempted?

Jesus is God and so he cannot be tempted in the sense that he cannot be enticed to sin, but he can be tempted in the sense that he can be tested, even with the evil lures of Satan (Matthew 4), and found to be true to his character. This is the context of Hebrews 4:15, which says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted (peiraz ) in all things as we are, yet without sin."/

Jesus was tested by Satan's enticements concerning his obedience to the Father and his commitment to his messianic mission, yet he did not succumb to the temptation. (A related issue concerns the dynamics between Christ's human and divine natures, under the subjection of his one divine person. See The Impeccable Christ by W. E. Best, Zondervan, 1971).

Does God Tempt People?

Look again at James 1:13. Just as God cannot be enticed into sinning, so God does not entice anyone else into sinning. That is what is meant by "and He Himself does not tempt anyone." James warns us not to blame our own fall into sin on God. God does not persuade us to sin, we willingly fall to the lure of our own sinful nature (Romans 3:23), the sinfulness in the world (Titus 2:12), and/or the false promises of Satan (Genesis 3:1-5).

When 2 Samuel 24:1 says God provoked or tempted David to number Israel, it means God made use of David's action to manifest David's disobedience to God. The parallel passage in 1 Chronicles 27:23-24 credits Satan with provoking David to take the census. Putting the two passages together shows that, while Satan may have enticed David into sin, it was God who tested David and used that occasion to show both David and the Israelites the consequences of David's sin.

God tests us to reveal to ourselves and the world our true characters.

God has always tested each order of rational beings that He has created. This test has consisted of proof of perfect trust and obedience. A test in itself is not a cause of sin. Only the action of the one tested can turn it into an occasion to sin. . . . Adam and Eve faced a test of obedience, and disobeyed and fell. Christ, in order to redeem men, faced testing, and came out victorious (Hebrews 5:7-9) (Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, Charles Pfeiffer, Howard Vos, and John Rea, eds., Moody, 1975, p. 1680).

Summary

There are various meanings for the word temptation. Usually it means either an enticement to sin or a test or trial. God never entices anyone to sin, but uses testing to reveal his justice and challenge believers to faithfulness (2 Corinthians 13:5-8).

What Does the Bible Mean by Temptation? - Answers.org

prodromos said:

You don't actually know that. Just because He didn't suddenly appear in locked rooms before His resurrection, doesn't mean He couldn't. Have you walked on water lately? Not the frozen kind either.

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There is a funny story about Joseph Smith of the the mormons. He had planks set up just under dirty water to fake walking on the water. One night some children removed the middle plank at the deepest part. So, the next day when Smith was trying to his miracle, he sunk to the bottom.

OzSpen said:

chevy,

Yes, Mary was 'blessed' because she carried the Son of Man in her womb. All generations will confirm she was blessed.

As for 'hints' she was special and not a Jewish run-of-the-mill mother, I don't find anything in the text that confirms this.

Oz

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Luke 2:19
But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

Luke 2:51
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.