So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

Steve_K · Sep 2, 2020

solid_core said:
Interestingly, the more time one devotes to never ending eschatology guesses, the less time he actually has to spiritually grow and to help people around him.

To be prepared is not to look for signs or to read pamphlets, but to repent and live according to God's will.

I disagree with the premise that one can either:

A) Focus on end-times prophecy and therefore cannot grow spiritually and help those around them.

OR

B) Live according to God's will, read the Bible, grow spiritually, ignore end-times prophecy.

One can study end-times prophecy and grow spiritually by reading the Bible and obey God's word. I've noticed a lot of posters who take the "Don't worry about end-times! Just read your Bible and God will take care of you!" position seem to have some level of hostility towards those of us who would like to discuss and discern more about eschatology.

I personally came to the Lord because I couldn't deny world events/Bible prophecy (now and throughout history) which led me to believe the Bible was 100% true. I then realized how much of a sinner I was (Romans 1:29-32) and I repented and was saved reading John 1:29 - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!' ".

The current global covid crisis/insanity and talk of forced vaccinations, possible chipping, surveillance, move toward cashless society, and overall dystopia has led my sister, a staunch atheist and Bible mocker, to start asking me questions about the Bible. Hopefully she comes to realize the truth of the Bible and comes to know Jesus personally.

lsume · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
in the OP scenario - that born-again Christian carefully avoids Matt 24 and anything that speaks explicitly to end time events in God's Word. In your scenario above -- is there any risk to such a person for not thinking of it the way you do??

I think when The Truth Comes, your going to have to hold on with all that you are.

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

lsume said:
I think when The Truth Comes, your going to have to hold on with all that you are.

and God is giving us survival tools in scripture so that we can survive those events. But the way it is presented in modern times - it is not at all "essential" to know the scenario to get to a good outcome.

That indicates some sort of problem.

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

keras said:
Isaiah 26:20-21 is a direct instruction for us.
When the Lord strikes the earth with His fiery wrath, we must take shelter.
Just for the 24 hours of that literal Day. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17.

Woops! The great Day of the Lord comes; burning like a furnace, all the arrogant and evil peoples will be as stubble, burned to ashes. Malachi 4:1-3
.

ok but the Christian in the OP who trusts Christ - and sees trouble and holds on to Christ - is fine right?

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

lsume said:
I think when The Truth Comes, your going to have to hold on with all that you are.

Amen

lsume · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
and God is giving us survival tools in scripture so that we can survive those events. But the way it is presented in modern times - it is not at all "essential" to know the scenario to get to a good outcome.

That indicates some sort of problem.

If he didn’t want me to make it, I wouldn’t have and that is absolutely True.

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

fewme said:
wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

wolf! wolf!

ha ha ha, there was no wolf

Someone mentioned that they were scared of the "mark of the beast" and I posted this --

BobRyan said:
good point. Rev 13 presents this as very very scary.

It says the whole world is deceived by it

Matthew 24 says it is soooo powerful even the very elect are at risk - "if possible to deceive the very elect".

2 Thess 2 says that it comes with all the power and signs and wonders of satan himself.

The warnings in the Bible about end times events - are off the charts.

Christ said that the real END-Times scenario is EXACTLY like the days of Noah and not knowing enough to "get in the boat" -- where most people do not take that action Noah's message pointed to... they just keep doing things as they used to do them.

Today's scenarios argue that they are NOTHING like the one give to Noah - because not doing anything different will serve you "just fine" as long as you are the person in the OP scenario who accepts Christ. (Whether or not you guessed the right ending sequence)

By contrast in the Bible we have this --

2 Peter 3
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1 Thess 5
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

Matt 24

22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
..
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
..
37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be

2 Thess 2
; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
They would have to already be doing just that. They would have to already be reacting to new information and responding quickly, alert, paying attention.

A person used to drunk driving is not going to suddenly become an expert driver when road conditions become hazardous.

JacksBratt said:
I agree..

One thing though... The book of Revelation.. is the only book that promises that the reader will be blessed by reading it.

Agreed - but there is a reason for that blessing - the information in the book is "needed" to survive - particularly to survive events at the end of time - ending up on the right side of the fence so to speak.

No matter how "sincere" the guy is who lived 1200 miles away from Noah and his ark-- he would drown with all his family and friends if he did not get the news, make the move, take action etc. He could not be safe to satisfy himself with "well my grandfather did not know about this, was not confronted with the ark-question and he was ok so I am just going stay right where I am like my grandfather".

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑

My point is that in the Bible examples we have in history - it always matters a huge amount if the people ignored some bit warning about an upcoming crisis event.

But what is being proposed today is a bunch of 'does not matter' scenarios where even those promoting them are forced to admit 'does not matter' to the person who is already a born-again Christian reading only the 4 gospels and carefully ignoring all end-time scenarios.

I gave the pre-trib pre-mill rapture example about 3 times.

So for example
Today at 9:47 AM #93

And here is one where I show that the common form of post-trib pre-mill rapture does not matter

Yesterday at 11:47 PM #61

ZNP said:
The only "end time prophecy" I was able to discern from those two posts was this:

Matt 24:43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
You appear to dispute the Lord's word saying it wouldn't matter if you knew when the thief was coming.

It seems to me then the real question is what can the householder do to prevent his house from being broken into? I would think that question would make a great thread.

Ok I think I see the problem .. I am talking about topic "A" and you are talking about topic "B".

My topic is about the list of end-time scenarios described in this section of the board --- so for example
1. Pre-trib, pre-mill
2. Mid-trib, pre-mill
3. Post-trib, pre-mill
4. post-mill
5. Amill
etc

I am saying that adopting one of those end-time scenarios is to adopt a view of end-times that does not matter to the outcome of the person I describe in the OP.

That is my subject "A"
================================

your subject "B" is about selecting a specific Bible text as though my point is that I pick a given text and say we can ignore the Bible text and we will be just fine. But that is not my point at all. I am not suggesting that something in the Bible does not matter.

I am saying the end-time scenarios being presented do not matter - and I use an extreme example of someone who is ignoring large portions of the Bible - to prove my point.

==============================================
So the OP scenario (an extreme one to illustrate my point) - where someone is ignoring practically all of scripture to just focus on "being born again... a Christian" and ignoring all Bible topics on the end times, is my extreme example.

I do that because I want to show that even in that extreme case - all the 6 or 7 or 8 scenarios for end-times, end up admitting "it does not matter that your OP person ignores the Bible on end-times, just read the Gospels and all is well"

BobRyan · Sep 2, 2020

ZNP said:
OK, a very important prophecy is Daniel's 70 weeks. That prophecy is ideal in helping someone identify Jesus Christ the Messiah. That is critical to the gospel.

I agree. A person ignoring that prophecy at the time of John the baptizer - would be at "high risk". My whole point is that Bible warnings ignored DO have great consequence if we really understand them. If we don't understand them ... they appear to have no consequence at all because the "detail" is missing from our understanding that would show any consequence.

But in the OP the person of today already accepts Christ and is a born-again Christian.

ZNP said:
It might not have helped 95% of those that came to the Lord but if it helped some who were scribes and pharisees, then you can see that it is profitable. That prophecy also helps you understand that there is a gap from the time of the Lord's crucifixion to the the 70th week. That could have comforted Christians for the last 2,000 years.

How would that have helped them... if it is even true at all?

ZNP said:
Finally, that prophecy makes it very clear that it is all about Jerusalem.

How does not noticing that - have any effect at all on someone who is already a born-again Christian?

ZNP said:
Instead of being incredibly vague with the end time prophecies, why not pick one specific one and see if it would be profitable for believers.

I have opened the door to all the basic scenarios asked if someone can find one that matters for the Christian in my OP scenario.

ZNP said:
Your question though is the opposite, does it matter if we ignore it? Does it matter if God ignores you?

That is not a valid comparison. Pick any of the scenarios you don't agree with (Post-mill for example) in the OP for end-times and then make the claim that to ignore that one is the same as God ignoring you. That is not a logical connection in any case.

ZNP said:
You are asking if it makes any difference if you ignore what God has spoken, .

My point is that in the Bible examples we have in history - it always matters a huge amount if the people ignored some bit warning about an upcoming crisis event.

But what is being proposed today is a bunch of 'does not matter' scenarios where even those promoting them are forced to admit 'does not matter' to the person who is already a born-again Christian reading only the 4 gospels and carefully ignoring all end-time scenarios.

My argument here is that if your chosen scenario is stuck at the "well I guess it would not matter to the OP scenario person's fate/outcome" -- then you have chosen a scenario that is out of step with all of scripture.. might want to re-think it.

ZNP said:
If you realized at the time of Jesus crucifixion that this was the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would be cut off, then praying over that verse could have caused some to repent and receive Jesus.

ok but none of the end-time scenarios that are options for this section of the board involve someone at the time of Christ -- or misreading the predictions about the first coming of Christ.

ZNP said:
. The Lord said that the end of this age would be like the days of Noah.

Yes and in Noah's day "not listening" meant death and failure. But in today's many scenarios - ignoring the details in the proposed end time sequence - ... does not matter to the outcome for the proposed person in the OP.

Jamdoc · Sep 2, 2020

Steve_K said:
I disagree with the premise that one can either:

A) Focus on end-times prophecy and therefore cannot grow spiritually and help those around them.

OR

B) Live according to God's will, read the Bible, grow spiritually, ignore end-times prophecy.

One can study end-times prophecy and grow spiritually by reading the Bible and obey God's word. I've noticed a lot of posters who take the "Don't worry about end-times! Just read your Bible and God will take care of you!" position seem to have some level of hostility towards those of us who would like to discuss and discern more about eschatology.

I personally came to the Lord because I couldn't deny world events/Bible prophecy (now and throughout history) which led me to believe the Bible was 100% true. I then realized how much of a sinner I was (Romans 1:29-32) and I repented and was saved reading John 1:29 - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!' ".

The current global covid crisis/insanity and talk of forced vaccinations, possible chipping, surveillance, move toward cashless society, and overall dystopia has led my sister, a staunch atheist and Bible mocker, to start asking me questions about the Bible. Hopefully she comes to realize the truth of the Bible and comes to know Jesus personally.

The crazy thing about the "just read your bible" crowd is that the bible has a LOT of prophecy in it, it's in the gospels, it's in the epistles, it has entire books dedicated to it, it's even in Genesis.
Isaiah 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

DamianWarS · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
True - and in the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of saints with over 50 million killed that would be comfort to them. So also the millions of Christians killed in the 1900's.

Still they would not need anything like an end-time scenario pre-trib, amill, post mill, pre-mill to help them with those situations.

"pre-trib, amill, post mill, pre-mill" are post-scriptural terms... I thought we were talking about scripture not doctrinal interpretation of it

BobRyan said:
The unbeliever that dies before the end-times ... gets the lake of fire.
the unbeliever that dies in the end times ... gets the lake of fire.

How are they at "increased risk" by not know about a specific end-time scenario?

had the unbeliever been told the whole message perhaps they would choose a different path. If you're answer is the HS draws people not the message then why bother even opening your mouth? Scripture gives us a task and it's not our job to scrutinize the message, it's our job to tell it.

BobRyan said:
That is in the question "what is the risk of ignoring these texts" -- presumably it is that you don't get the benefit of them.

the racer pushes harder when they see the finish line, or milestone markers along the way. it's a psychological motivation but it would be irresponsible to say it contributes nothing. Why bother even saying we are "saved" or speaking of heaven/hell (or whatever terms you desire)? Jesus should have just said "follow me" and left it at that... or better yet say nothing at all and let the chips fall where they may.

keras · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
ok but the Christian in the OP who trusts Christ - and sees trouble and holds on to Christ - is fine right?

Yes;
Faith and trust in the Lord for His protection thru all that must happen, is the critical factor.
However, knowing what will happen, will be a great help. It is those who have no idea and are completely surprised, who may lose their faith, to their eternal loss.

keras · Sep 2, 2020

DamianWarS said:
"pre-trib, amill, post mill, pre-mill" are post-scriptural terms... I thought we were talking about scripture not doctrinal interpretation of it

Not one of those beliefs has any actual scriptural support.
They are all dreamed up fantasies, that are in direct contradiction to Bible teaching.
There is no 'rapture to heaven', Jesus said so: John 3:13
There IS a Millennium to come, when Jesus will reign as King over the world. Revelation 20 says it 6 times.

I see the 'fuss is about', people wanting to impose their own ideas, a 'better' scenario that what the Bible seems to have of doom and gloom.
The sad thing about this, is that for all those who do keep their faith and stand firm in their trust in the Lord during the scary times ahead, God does Promise wonderful Blessings for them and eventual immortality.

Douggg · Sep 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
I agree. A person ignoring that prophecy at the time of John the baptizer - would be at "high risk". My whole point is that Bible warnings ignored DO have great consequence if we really understand them. If we don't understand them ... they appear to have no consequence at all because the "detail" is missing from our understanding that would show any consequence.

This thread reminds of....

John 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Jesus said what to do in the four gospels regarding the end times and his Second Coming. Follow what he said.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

consequences:
Matthew 24:32-52 is a message to Christians, on avoiding the great tribulation, via the rapture.
Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews who will go through the great tribulation.

DamianWarS · Sep 3, 2020

keras said:
Jesus said so: John 3:13

so then we soul sleep until the resurrection? Perhaps you're right, but the bible does present tensions in these areas and it's just a matter of what verse you're filtering things through (like John 3:13) where single verses seem to value opposite ends (like John 3:13). I don't have the answers but these days I'm less dogmatic about what I think I know.

Jamdoc · Sep 3, 2020

keras said:
Not one of those beliefs has any actual scriptural support.
They are all dreamed up fantasies, that are in direct contradiction to Bible teaching.
There is no 'rapture to heaven', Jesus said so: John 3:13
There IS a Millennium to come, when Jesus will reign as King over the world. Revelation 20 says it 6 times.

I see the 'fuss is about', people wanting to impose their own ideas, a 'better' scenario that what the Bible seems to have of doom and gloom.
The sad thing about this, is that for all those who do keep their faith and stand firm in their trust in the Lord during the scary times ahead, God does Promise wonderful Blessings for them and eventual immortality.

at the time John 3:13 was written Jesus was right, but Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5 that when you are absent from the body (after dying physically) You're present with the Lord, in a building not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. New Jerusalem exists in Heaven now, it descends on the earth after all things are fulfilled. Is that the place that Jesus said He was preparing for us?

I think it is
John 14:1-3

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

if Jesus is in Heaven, why do you think we don't go to Him and are received by Him so that we can be with Him?
Now before the Cross, that place for us had not been prepared.

fwGod · Sep 3, 2020

BobRyan said:
Christ said that the real END-Times scenario is EXACTLY like the days of Noah and not knowing enough to "get in the boat" -- where most people do not take that action Noah's message pointed to... they just keep doing things as they used to do them.

For everyone in Noah's day there was no safe place to go. They would die, but they wouldn't have gone to the region of the damned.

The phrase "they just keep doing things as they used to do them." reminds me of the guy back in 1980 who lived near Mount St. Helens. The warnings to evacuate were given but he refused to leave. When the volcano exploded, he died.

Today's scenarios argue that they are NOTHING like the one give to Noah - because not doing anything different will serve you "just fine" as long as you are the person in the OP scenario who accepts Christ. (Whether or not you guessed the right ending sequence)

In Revelation 3 Jesus spoke to the church at Sardis. To them in particular he said

I know your works, and that you have a name as if you are alive, (you call yourself Christians) but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, which are about to die. For I have not found your works complete before God.
Therefore, remember what you have received and heard, and hold on to this, and repent. Now then, if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you shall by no means know what hour I will come upon you.

For them, not doing anything different will not be 'just fine'.

keras · Sep 3, 2020

Jamdoc said:
at the time John 3:13 was written Jesus was right, but Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5 that when you are absent from the body (after dying physically) You're present with the Lord,

Paul said that was what he would rather have happen; not what will actually happen.
The whole idea of going to heaven, is a contradiction of much scripture.
Many prophesies tell us we Christians are the display His glory in the holy Land, as His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

Jamdoc · Sep 3, 2020

keras said:
Paul said that was what he would rather have happen; not what will actually happen.
The whole idea of going to heaven, is a contradiction of much scripture.
Many prophesies tell us we Christians are the display His glory in the holy Land, as His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

and John 14?
gonna have to admit, inside I feel a panic attack at the thought that I'd be not where Jesus is at any time after dying. The depression of this life is bad enough.
When people suggest we stay somewhere else while Jesus is in heaven after we die, I panic. When people say we go to heaven, but don't return when Jesus comes back to earth, I panic. I'm quickly reassured that it is written they are wrong, but the idea of not being able to be around Jesus .. is distressing.

John 14 says in my Father's house. Not somewhere on earth but in Heaven.

where I am, there ye may be also.

That's the comfort to me.

So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

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Watching and Praying Always

Follower of Isa Al Masih

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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