I'm starting to lean towards post trib

BobRyan

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That's what I was thinking, and yet Christians worry and argue about this issue as ardently as they do over some of the more critical ones. Or so it seems from here.

I have a "so what - whats all the fuss about" thread here discussing that very point.
 
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BobRyan

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Having said all of that - of course... my own post-trib pre-mill view is that this is EXACTLY like the days of Noah -- as Christ said in Matthew 24 - and not knowing about the boat and taking action to get in - is of HUGE consequence.
 
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Dave L

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I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.
Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists
 
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BobRyan

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Timtofly

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You completely fail to read or understand Revelation 12:6-17.
Jesus does not Return to a dead world. He gathers those who remain, 1 Thess 4:17, to Him, Matthew 24:30-31 and takes His rightful place as King over the world. A world of living people, without Satan to mess it up.
The 6th seal is the thief in the night moment. No one knows when it is going to happen. Jesus Christ as the Lamb is coming to reap the final harvest. All will die to get out of this sin nature, flesh and blood body from Adam. This harvest will be bodily, physically resurrected in Revelation 20.
 
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Timtofly

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Rev 13 says that the beast "17 provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

-- that means people are there who are not worshiping the beast nor do they have the mark - and they are being prevented from buying or selling. Which means the beast does not have enough access to them to behead them - so he makes it impossible for them to buy or sell.

Rev 14 contrasts the ones obeying the beast vs those who obey God. It is a warning not to obey the beast.
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Matt 24 - does not say that "before the tribulation he will gather his elect" but rather "after the tribulation".

Rev 7
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
The church has been under great persecution from the harlot church and unbelievers for 1990 years. Those in Christ are to persevere. The Second Coming is the final harvest of all souls on earth.

The Romans hunted down all the Jews who fled from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Are you saying that Satan is less competent than the Romans, whom Satan was controlling all along? Where is Satan currently sitting, pulling all the strings of current governments?

It is about perseverance, until death. We all have to die to get rid of this sin nature flesh and blood, inherited from Adam. When Christ comes at Armageddon, it is to kill all remaining humans, and bind Satan in sheol for 1000 years, according to Revelation 20. Then there is the bodily resurrection of those who died in the final harvest.
 
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Douggg

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I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.
If you are going to change, change to....

upload_2020-9-2_12-45-6.jpeg
 
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Jamdoc

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I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.

It is post tribulation (as in after the persecutions by the Antichrist) but pre wrath unless my understanding of Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are way off.
Notice that Jesus does not give the 7 trumpet judgements (there is the sound of a great trumpet (what may be termed as "the last trump", but not the locusts from hell, armies of 200 million killing 1/3 of the earth, asteroid strikes, water turning to blood, 60 pound hailstones, etc) or vial judgements as signs of His coming. My interpretation is that they happen afterward.
 
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BobRyan

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If they leave before the period of Satan's 3.5 years, how will they receive the mark?

It will be those who endure, that may not get their head chopped off soon enough. Post trib makes no sense, because all will be dead. If you are not dead, you have the mark. No way around it.

Rev 13 says that the beast "17 provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

-- that means people are there who are not worshiping the beast nor do they have the mark - and they are being prevented from buying or selling. Which means the beast does not have enough access to them to behead them - so he makes it impossible for them to buy or sell.

Rev 14 contrasts the ones obeying the beast vs those who obey God. It is a warning not to obey the beast.
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Matt 24 - does not say that "before the tribulation he will gather his elect" but rather "after the tribulation".

Rev 7
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

Are you saying that Satan is less competent than the Romans, whom Satan was controlling all along? .

I am saying there was never a time when true Christians were not on the Earth and that even the Rev 13 statement about "no buying or selling" that is being applied to the saints at that time - indicates that they exist then as well.
 
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drmerejay

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I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.


Do it POST TRIB....A Great Revival is going to happen. Get ready to be a Witness for Christ.
 
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keras

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Jesus Christ as the Lamb is coming to reap the final harvest. All will die to get out of this sin nature, flesh and blood body from Adam. This harvest will be bodily, physically resurrected in Revelation 20.
I already showed where you are wrong. 1 Thess 4:15...those who are alive and remain when the Lord comes....
But you seem incapable of seeing this.
There will be death during the Millennium. Isaiah 56:20, it is only after; at the GWT Judgment that Death is no more. Revelation 21:-7
 
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keras

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Posttrib makes the least amount of sense to me. Why would we go up only to come immediately back down to earth?
Because nobody, excepting the two Witnesses, will 'go up' to heaven.
 
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keras

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Rev 7
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
There is no 'the' before great tribulation. My Bible says; great ordeal.
This ordeal is the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
I am saying there was never a time when true Christians were not on the Earth and that even the Rev 13 statement about "no buying or selling" that is being applied to the saints at that time - indicates that they exist then as well.
Yes, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 make this clear.
But we Christians do not belong to the One World Govt of the Anti-Christ.
We will live in our own country of Beulah, in all of the holy land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Zechariah 8:1-8, +
That is why the AC comes to us and negotiates a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 9:27 He will break it at the mid point and take over Beulah. Those who kept faithful to their Covenant with God, Daniel 11:32-35, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the final 1260 days before Jesus Returns, Revelation 12:14
 
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Steve_K

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If they leave before the period of Satan's 3.5 years, how will they receive the mark?

The saints will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation/Anti-Christ persecution/666 period after the Abomination of Desolation. Many will be beheaded for refusing the mark, but God will cut this period short via the rapture and commence his Trumpet and Bowl judgments upon the world. (The rapture will be immediately preceded by cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon, and stars at some unknown point during the latter 3.5 yrs)

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It will be those who endure, that may not get their head chopped off soon enough. Post trib makes no sense, because all will be dead. If you are not dead, you have the mark. No way around it.

I agree the Post-Trib makes no sense and the Pre-Wrath position maintains that the saints will be raptured and escape God's Wrath/The Day of the Lord (not Satan or man's wrath) via the Trumpet and Bowl judgments.
 
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rockytopva

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If this event were post-trib....

1. Christ comes not as a thief - As it would be well announced
2. We return not with Christ - How could we return with Christ to reign a thousand years if we are still here?
3. No need to watch or be ready - As we would be awaiting things as the seven vials, in which all the waters of the world will become as blood, and the islands and mountains no more (Revelation 16)
 
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Jamdoc

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Posttrib makes the least amount of sense to me. Why would we go up only to come immediately back down to earth?

It's 2 misinterpretations
#1
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
They associate this with the 7th trumpet judgement in the wrath of God. and I mean, it's possible, but in Matthew 24 Jesus didn't give demon locusts 60 pound hailstones asteroid strikes or fire from the sky as signs of His coming. So He'd have to be skipping all that and just including it in his warning of Great Tribulation. But He gave the other signs explicitly so I don't know about that. I think they're not given because they happen He comes for His saints.

#2
Matthew 24:29
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and Revelation 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The problem here, is the definition of "tribulation" which they associate with all the seals, all the trumpets, and all the vials. However Jesus defines tribulation in Matthew 13:21 as persecution, by men.
So the first 5 seals, are persecutions by men, not judgements from God. The trumpets and vials, are judgements from God.

So in that sense John 16:33 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 are perfectly reconciled. Tribulations on this earth caused by man, but we're spared from God's wrath.
 
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rockytopva

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If this event were post-trib....

1. Christ comes not as a thief - As it would be well announced
2. We return not with Christ - How could we return with Christ to reign a thousand years if we are still here?
3. No need to watch or be ready - As we would be awaiting things as the seven vials, in which all the waters of the world will become as blood, and the islands and mountains no more (Revelation 16)
If this were post-trib no need for Christ to say.....
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
 
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Jamdoc

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If this event were post-trib....

1. Christ comes not as a thief - As it would be well announced
2. We return not with Christ - How could we return with Christ to reign a thousand years if we are still here?
3. No need to watch or be ready - As we would be awaiting things as the seven vials, in which all the waters of the world will become as blood, and the islands and mountains no more (Revelation 16)

Jesus didn't give a day or hour, but He did give signs, and He did tell us to watch. The thief in the night references are not for those who are watching, but for those who are not watching, sleeping.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

If you're just living your life, not thinking about Jesus returning, it's gonna be very sudden and unexpected,
If you're paying attention, it's going to be anticipated to some degree. Daniel 8 and 12 gives us some ballpark figures of dates after certain signs happen maybe 2300 days after daily sacrifices start, the temple gets cleansed, is that the return of Jesus? we don't know. There are given 1290 days after the abomination of desolation, what happens then? We don't know. We know that at 1335 days there's a blessing, 1335 days relative to what, the beginning, or ending of sacrifices, or 1335 days after the 1290? We don't know for 100% certain, we don't even know if the blessing referred to is the rapture or the return of Jesus. So trying to set dates is not likely to work. But what we can know is that when sacrifices start, we know that they will stop and the abomination of desolation will take place, with a false messiah claiming to be God while in the temple.

At that point if you're a believer in Israel Jesus told you to just flee into the mountains, and that's the sign that He says to watch for His coming, and just before it happens the sun and moon will darken.
 
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