Physical Presence/Ascension

ratchet30 · Sep 1, 2020

Lutherans believe Jesus ascended physically into heaven and Angel's said He would return in like manner but yet you guys believe in His physical presence in the Supper. How does that work?

mlepfitjw · Sep 1, 2020

Wow, Ratchet30. I never knew that before, no problem with it though, thank you sharing.

actionsub · Sep 1, 2020

ratchet30 said:
Lutherans believe Jesus ascended physically into heaven and Angel's said He would return in like manner but yet you guys believe in His physical presence in the Supper. How does that work?

We believe in what is called the "Real Presence". It's different in degree to the "physical presence" or transubstantiation as is held in Roman Catholicism.

Martin Luther explained what he called the "sacramental union" this way...
"... we do not make Christ's body out of the bread ... Nor do we say that his body comes into existence out of the bread [i.e. impanation]. We say that his body, which long ago was made and came into existence, is present when we say, "This is my body." For Christ commands us to say not, "Let this become my body," or, "Make my body there," but, "This is my body."
He really doesn't go into details other than to say when the words of institution are spoken over the elements, somehow the body and blood of Christ are present WITH the elements.

Daniel9v9 · Sep 2, 2020

In Christ Jesus, the fullness of the deity dwells bodily - which means that He is fully God and fully man. When Scriptures say that He is at the right hand of the Father, that does not imply that He is locked up in heaven as if it was some local place, but rather, that He is YHWH, the Almighty God from eternity - that all power and dominion belongs to Him. In other words, for Christ to be seated at the right hand of the Father does not refer to a place, but refers to His power and authority as God. It's the Biblical expression of being the ruler of the universe.

What this means for the Eucharist, though, is that Christ is truly present by virtue of His divinity. That is, did He say that He gives His body and blood? Yes. Is it possible for Christ to deliver that? Yes. Why does He deliver it? For our comfort. It is the same Gospel, only in tangible form.

ratchet30 · Sep 2, 2020

Ok so you're saying we don't eat Christ's physical body and blood but His body is present mystically? What does that mean?

Daniel9v9 · Sep 3, 2020

ratchet30 said:
Ok so you're saying we don't eat Christ's physical body and blood but His body is present mystically? What does that mean?

Yes, though it depends on what is meant by "physical body" and "mystically". We confess the Eucharist as a holy mystery, expressed as Sacramental Union (not Consubstantiation!), where we consume both regular bread and wine, but also truly Christ's body and blood, through which God's promise of grace is applied and sealed to every believer.

Whenever Lutherans say that the body and blood of Christ is "in, with, and under" the bread and the wine, it's not intended as a scientific explanation (such as Transubstantiation), but simply: Is it bread and wine? Yes. Is it the body and blood of Christ? Yes (but not in a Capernaitic or cannibalistic way). We don't speculate or explain how, but we receive the gift gladly in faith and with thanksgiving, knowing that God delivers what He promises to deliver.

tampasteve · Sep 3, 2020

The Lutheran theology and explanation of the Eucharist are one of the cornerstone reasons of why I joined this church as opposed to Anglicans or remaining Catholic.

FaithT · Sep 3, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Yes, though it depends on what is meant by "physical body" and "mystically". We confess the Eucharist as a holy mystery, expressed as Sacramental Union (not Consubstantiation!), where we consume both regular bread and wine, but also truly Christ's body and blood, through which God's promise of grace is applied and sealed to every believer.

Whenever Lutherans say that the body and blood of Christ is "in, with, and under" the bread and the wine, it's not intended as a scientific explanation (such as Transubstantiation), but simply: Is it bread and wine? Yes. Is it the body and blood of Christ? Yes (but not in a Capernaitic or cannibalistic way). We don't speculate or explain how, but we receive the gift gladly in faith and with thanksgiving, knowing that God delivers what He promises to deliver.

If His body and blood isn’t transubstantation, then how can it be present? I mean, my pastor always says it’s a mystery and nobody seems to be able to explain it, so how does one understand it?

FaithT · Sep 3, 2020

actionsub said:
We believe in what is called the "Real Presence". It's different in degree to the "physical presence" or transubstantiation as is held in Roman Catholicism.

What is the difference between the Real Presence and physical presence?

FaithT · Sep 3, 2020

And what exactly is the Sacramental Union?

Daniel9v9 · Sep 4, 2020

Hope1960 said:
If His body and blood isn’t transubstantation, then how can it be present? I mean, my pastor always says it’s a mystery and nobody seems to be able to explain it, so how does one understand it?

Ah, OK. Let me just start by saying that the Real Presence does not mean Transubstantiation. Transubstantiation is just one attempt to scientifically explain the holy mystery of the Eucharist, using philosophical (Aristotelian) definitions. This speculative idea goes far beyond what the Bible says.

The Bible simply says that it's bread and wine and the body and blood of our Lord. It's a mystery composed of something natural and something divine, hence the Lutheran name Sacramental Union. That is, the bread and the wine, and Christ's true body and blood - the earthly and the heavenly - are divinely and sacramentally united (or mystically united - "sacrament" means "mystery") in a supernatural and inexpressible way. It is a means of grace and we receive the gift by virtue of God's promise, grace, and power.

FaithT · Sep 4, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Ah, OK. Let me just start by saying that the Real Presence does not mean Transubstantiation. Transubstantiation is just one attempt to scientifically explain the holy mystery of the Eucharist, using philosophical (Aristotelian) definitions. This speculative idea goes far beyond what the Bible says.

The Bible simply says that it's bread and wine and the body and blood of our Lord. It's a mystery composed of something natural and something divine, hence the Lutheran name Sacramental Union. That is, the bread and the wine, and Christ's true body and blood - the earthly and the heavenly - are divinely and sacramentally united (or mystically united - "sacrament" means "mystery") in a supernatural and inexpressible way. It is a means of grace and we receive the gift by virtue of God's promise, grace, and power.

So it’s a supernatural thing, then?

tampasteve · Sep 4, 2020

Hope1960 said:
So it’s a supernatural thing, then?

I think "mystical" is a more accurate term, but I may be splitting hairs on that.

Daniel9v9 · Sep 4, 2020

Hope1960 said:
So it’s a supernatural thing, then?

Yes, it’s certainly to be understood as supernatural or miraculous as opposed to something limited by natural law. All church bodies who believe in the Real Presence believe this, including Roman Catholics. So on this point, we’re all in agreement - That is, it’s a holy mystery.

FaithT · Sep 4, 2020

tampasteve said:
I think "mystical" is a more accurate term, but I may be splitting hairs on that.

I’d prefer the word supernatural, unless that’s wrong. Again,
Daniel9v9?

Also, would Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist be His glorified body?

FaithT · Sep 4, 2020

tampasteve said:
The Lutheran theology and explanation of the Eucharist are one of the cornerstone reasons of why I joined this church as opposed to Anglicans or remaining Catholic.

The idea that Jesus in present along with the bread and wine has always made more sense to me than transubstantiation where the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine, after hearing about that belief, though I’d never heard of it until several years ago.

I am still struggling with the belief that a pastor can consecrate the Eucharist, as opposed to a priest, though. Part of me believes it, part of me wonders how it’s possible. It might be the Catholic in me that’s making me wonder about that. My pastors don’t wear robes or a collar and I know their ordination wasn’t as elaborate as a priests, so it does make me wonder.

Daniel9v9 · Sep 5, 2020

Hope1960 said:
I’d prefer the word supernatural, unless that’s wrong. Again,
Daniel9v9?

Also, would Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist be His glorified body?

Supernatural is perhaps not the most accurate or comprehensive expression, as @tampasteve rightly points out, but it’s not wrong. It is effected by God’s power after all.

And yes, it’s Christ’s glorified body. Remember that the Sacrament was instituted on the night when He was betrayed, before being crucified, so the next time His disciples would have celebrated it would be after His resurrection.

Hope1960 said:
I am still struggling with the belief that a pastor can consecrate the Eucharist, as opposed to a priest, though. Part of me believes it, part of me wonders how it’s possible. It might be the Catholic in me that’s making me wonder about that. My pastors don’t wear robes or a collar and I know their ordination wasn’t as elaborate as a priests, so it does make me wonder.

Oh, that’s very interesting! Would you say it’s a somewhat casual or modern church?

With respect to the validity of the Sacrament - this is not subject to any thing or quality in the priest, but simply Christ’s word, which does what it says it does. It’s not effective by our power or authority, but by God’s power and authority.

FaithT · Sep 5, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Supernatural is perhaps not the most accurate or comprehensive expression, as @tampasteve rightly points out, but it’s not wrong. It is effected by God’s power after all.

And yes, it’s Christ’s glorified body. Remember that the Sacrament was instituted on the night when He was betrayed, before being crucified, so the next time His disciples would have celebrated it would be after His resurrection.

Oh, that’s very interesting! Would you say it’s a somewhat casual or modern church?

With respect to the validity of the Sacrament - this is not subject to any thing or quality in the priest, but simply Christ’s word, which does what it says it does. It’s not effective by our power or authority, but by God’s power and authority.

My church is casual and contemporary and I like it very much. Our sermons are parts of a series, we have screens with the lyrics to the songs, our band often sings contemporary Christian music and when they don’t, the songs sound contemporary with drums, electric guitar etc.
Our last sermon/series was on movies of the 80’s. They showed clips of the movies and then relate them to the Bible and our lives. It’s not like one other Lutheran church I visited that seemed very much like a Catholic Mass.

FaithT · Sep 5, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Supernatural is perhaps not the most accurate or comprehensive expression, as @tampasteve rightly points out, but it’s not wrong. It is effected by God’s power after all.

And yes, it’s Christ’s glorified body. Remember that the Sacrament was instituted on the night when He was betrayed, before being crucified, so the next time His disciples would have celebrated it would be after His resurrection.

Oh, that’s very interesting! Would you say it’s a somewhat casual or modern church?

With respect to the validity of the Sacrament - this is not subject to any thing or quality in the priest, but simply Christ’s word, which does what it says it does. It’s not effective by our power or authority, but by God’s power and authority.

So again, what you’re saying is that the priest or pastor doesn’t have the power or authority to consecrate the Eucharist, himself, the power comes from the three persons in God, right? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Do they just say the words and God changes the bread and wine?

FaithT · Sep 6, 2020

Hope1960 said:
So again, what you’re saying is that the priest or pastor doesn’t have the power or authority to consecrate the Eucharist, himself, the power comes from the three persons in God, right? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Do they just say the words and God changes the bread and wine?

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Physical Presence/Ascension

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