Mosaic Legalism and the Law of Moses

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The Lord speaks of the new covenant as being “a better covenant” than the old one. (Hebrews 8:6.) This clearly indicates that the old covenant was not perfect in its provisions. There was weakness in it, and that weakness was to be corrected in the new (the old made better) covenant.

Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 describe the New Covenant as being better in regard to having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, but don't say anything about having better laws, on the contrary the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10).

But of the Ten Commandments the Lord declares: “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.” Psalms 19:7. “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” Romans 7:12. But the old covenant was imperfect and faulty. Therefore it is evident that the old covenant and the Decalogue, though related, are certainly not identical. The Ten Commandments cannot be the old covenant.

Neither Psalms 19:7 nor Romans 7:12 specify that they are speaking only about the Ten Commandments.

Of the new covenant God says that it was to be “established upon better promises.” Hebrews 8:6. This clearly indicates that some of the promises of the old covenant were poor. These poor promises were made, not by God, but by the people when they promised more than they could perform (all that the Lord said we will do). The fault was “with them,” the Lord declares in verse 8. Their promises were not reliable. The new covenant had better promises, not made by sinful men, but by the Lord Himself.

For example:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.” 37 Thus says the Lord: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.”

That is a better promise, but it doesn't imply anything about the promises of the Mosaic Covenant being poor. It is God who gave the terms of the covenant, not the people, and the fault was with the people, not with the terms of the covenant.

But this could not possibly apply to the Ten Commandments, and are clearly declared to be “perfect,” “holy, and just, and good” (9 Romans 7:12). A thing cannot be faulty and perfect at the same time.

God's law is perfect, the fault that God found was that the people did not continue in their covenant (Hebrews 8:9)

Paul declared that the old covenant was “ready to vanish away.” “In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” Hebrews 8:13.

But this same apostle states that the law, instead of vanishing away, was definitely established by faith. “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31. A thing cannot “vanish away” and be established at the same time.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes which actions are righteous or sinful. So we can still establish God's eternal law by faith even though the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete.

Jesus also makes this point clear when He declares: “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.” Luke 16:17. Now, heaven and earth have not “passed.” Therefore this is positive evidence that not a jot nor tittle of the law has failed.
No part of it (the Decalogue) has vanished away.

Again, Jesus said nothing to specify that he was speaking only about the Ten Commandments. Jesus made a similar statement in Matthew 5:17-19 in regard to not a jot or a tittle disappearing from the Law and the Prophets, which straightforwardly includes everything in the Law and the Prophets, not just the Ten Commandments.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,773
5,635
Utah
✟719,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 describe the New Covenant as being better in regard to having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, but don't say anything about having better laws, on the contrary the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10).



Neither Psalms 19:7 nor Romans 7:12 specify that they are speaking only about the Ten Commandments.



For example:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.” 37 Thus says the Lord: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.”

That is a better promise, but it doesn't imply anything about the promises of the Mosaic Covenant being poor. It is God who gave the terms of the covenant, not the people, and the fault was with the people, not with the terms of the covenant.



God's law is perfect, the fault that God found was that the people did not continue in their covenant (Hebrews 8:9)



All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes which actions are righteous or sinful. So we can still establish God's eternal law by faith even though the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete.



Again, Jesus said nothing to specify that he was speaking only about the Ten Commandments. Jesus made a similar statement in Matthew 5:17-19 in regard to not a jot or a tittle disappearing from the Law and the Prophets, which straightforwardly includes everything in the Law and the Prophets, not just the Ten Commandments.

The laws and ordinances of the sanctuary system are the ones that have been done away with (evidenced by the veil being torn from top to bottom). Jesus now ministers from the sanctuary in heaven. We have no more need for earthly priests nor a earthly sanctuary system. The earthly sanctuary was put in place until the seed come .... and that seed was Christ.

I do put emphasis on the 10 commandments because some believe they were done away with .... and that is just a great big NO!

Jesus fulfills all covenants, Law and Prophets ... we are called to walk as He walked .... He is our example.

1st Peter 2

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

If one has an on-going relationship with Christ ... He (the Holy Spirit) will help them overcome their sin (transgression of the Law) ... a continuous process over the course of our earthly life-time.

Philippians 1:6

English Standard Version
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I do trust Him.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The laws and ordinances of the sanctuary system are the ones that have been done away with (evidenced by the veil being torn from top to bottom). Jesus now ministers from the sanctuary in heaven. We have no more need for earthly priests nor a earthly sanctuary system. The earthly sanctuary was put in place until the seed come .... and that seed was Christ.

I do put emphasis on the 10 commandments because some believe they were done away with .... and that is just a great big NO!

Jesus fulfills all covenants, Law and Prophets ... we are called to walk as He walked .... He is our example.

1st Peter 2

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

If one has an on-going relationship with Christ ... He (the Holy Spirit) will help them overcome their sin (transgression of the Law) ... a continuous process over the course of our earthly life-time.

Philippians 1:6

English Standard Version
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I do trust Him.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so none of them will ever be done away with. God's nature is eternal, so His instructions for how to express His nature will always be eternally valid. The Bible does not state that the veil being torn means that any of God's eternal laws have been done away with. In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making sin offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for and join the purification rites of others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Torah. Furthermore, it says that Jesus would not be a priest if he were still on earth, and if the Torah were no longer in effect, then it would have no power to do prevent that. So offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophesies of a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume, so those laws have not gone anywhere (Ezekiel 44-46).
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,773
5,635
Utah
✟719,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so none of them will ever be done away with. God's nature is eternal, so His instructions for how to express His nature will always be eternally valid. The Bible does not state that the veil being torn means that any of God's eternal laws have been done away with. In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making sin offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for and join the purification rites of others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Torah. Furthermore, it says that Jesus would not be a priest if he were still on earth, and if the Torah were no longer in effect, then it would have no power to do prevent that. So offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophesies of a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume, so those laws have not gone anywhere (Ezekiel 44-46).

I agree to disagree .... the temple services did in fact end ... sure took about 40 years or so ... as they didn't have e-mail in those days ;o) Time will tell .... the earthly sanctuaries (pointing to Messiah) were all a copy of the heavenly sanctuary ... Jesus is now in heaven in the REAL sanctuary and He is serving as our high priest. One day all the saved will be with Him in the real sanctuary in heaven ... when He returns.

Hewbrews 9:24
Berean Literal Bible
For Christ has entered not into holy places made by hands, copies of the true ones, but into heaven itself, now to appear for us in the presence of God,

Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the temple (and it happened). Is there anywhere where Jesus says another earthly sanctuary will be rebuilt before His return? Anywhere where Jesus says animal sacrifices will resume?

Luke 13:35 - Jesus speaking

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Behold, your house (earthly temple) is left to you desolate, for I say to you, you shall not see me until you will say, 'Blest is he who comes in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH!'”

and so it is ...

Time will tell .... time will tell ;o)
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I agree to disagree .... the temple services did in fact end ... sure took about 40 years or so ... as they didn't have e-mail in those days ;o) Time will tell .... the earthly sanctuaries (pointing to Messiah) were all a copy of the heavenly sanctuary ... Jesus is now in heaven in the REAL sanctuary and He is serving as our high priest. One day all the saved will be with Him in the real sanctuary in heaven ... when He returns.

Hewbrews 9:24
Berean Literal Bible
For Christ has entered not into holy places made by hands, copies of the true ones, but into heaven itself, now to appear for us in the presence of God,

Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the temple (and it happened). Is there anywhere where Jesus says another earthly sanctuary will be rebuilt before His return? Anywhere where Jesus says animal sacrifices will resume?

Luke 13:35 - Jesus speaking

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Behold, your house (earthly temple) is left to you desolate, for I say to you, you shall not see me until you will say, 'Blest is he who comes in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH!'”

and so it is ...

Time will tell .... time will tell ;o)

Do you agree that we should live in a way that points toward Messiah?
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,773
5,635
Utah
✟719,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
All of God's righteous laws are eternal, so none of them will ever be done away with. God's nature is eternal, so His instructions for how to express His nature will always be eternally valid. The Bible does not state that the veil being torn means that any of God's eternal laws have been done away with. In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making sin offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for and join the purification rites of others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Torah. Furthermore, it says that Jesus would not be a priest if he were still on earth, and if the Torah were no longer in effect, then it would have no power to do prevent that. So offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophesies of a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume, so those laws have not gone anywhere (Ezekiel 44-46).

Perhaps not ... Paul never made it to the 8th day and the 8th day is when sacrifice was offered.

Numbers 6:9

On the eighth day they shall bring two turtle-doves or two young pigeons to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting, 11and the priest shall offer one as a sin-offering and the other as a burnt-offering, and make atonement for them, because they incurred guilt by reason of the corpse. They shall sanctify the head that same day, 12and separate themselves to the Lord for their days as nazirites,* and bring a male lamb a year old as a guilt-offering. The former time shall be void, because the consecrated head was defiled

Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

Yet still during the 7th day Paul was taken out of the Temple and did not return.

Never completed the vow with sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:12

English Standard Version
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Is there anything about Paul taking the vow after this? I don't find anything.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
You're right. There are many verses and contexts that sometimes challenge readers, and also expose lapses in memory and sometimes for properly understanding what is being said. Even the best of intentions can go astray without properly applied forethought.

[Act 15:1, 5-10 KJV] 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. ... 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Now, there are those who have tried to argue that Peter was talking about man-made traditions. The context NOWHERE said anything about man-made traditions in relation to Peter's declaration. The focus of the context of that sections of scripture CLEARLY is addressing circumcision AND THE LAW OF MOSES. This is without a doubt, in my mind, an attempt to turn the context on its head, and inset into the text what is not there to try and deflect attention away from the Law of Moses by those who have chosen to venerate it as something that it is not. They choose to ignore the fact that Peter clearly viewed the Law of Moses as a YOKE that neither their fathers nor they could bare.

It seems that the idea of those sectarian pharisees being wrong is an unbearable thought to some; so much so that it drives them to irrational ends of manic denial of what can clearly be gleaned from the text by a Greek 101 student.

Why do you suppose that is....that they would think to present what they think is a scholarly sounding rendition of what simply is not there after having done the age old switcheroo, assuming that they can brow beat all others into a false belief about that section of scripture?

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to becoming circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. This means that the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against that requirement, and a ruling against requiring something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, so take your pick:

1.) God was right in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and the Jerusalem Council was wrong in Acts 15:10.

2.) God was wrong in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and then Jerusalem Council was right in Acts 15:10.

3.) They are not speaking about the same law.

My pick is with 3.) because I've already established that the topic they were discussing was in regard to something that above and beyond what the Mosaic Law required. The Psalms contain extremely high praise, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as did Paul (Romans 7:22), and will consider the view that the Mosaic Law is a burden that no one can bear to be incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so interpreting Acts 15:10 as referring to the Mosaic Law is contradicting that verse and would be essentially ruling that Gentiles shouldn't love God.

[Act 15:19-21 KJV] 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

One may ask, "Is that ALL that they were expecting of the Gentile followers? I would say, no, for it only said that they will have done "well." There is indeed still Law that is binding upon us all who are in Christ. What gets some people's britches in a wad is when one dares to point at the Law of Moses in its entirety as something that is no longer binding upon the followers of Christ Jesus. This really is a kick in the shins of some who have chosen to appoint themselves as allegedly upholding the Law of Moses, which they don't. Some have even told me that attempting to live by those laws, they are showing their greater love of Christ, never minding that they, like the scribes and teachers of the Law whom Jesus described as white washed sepulchers, or tombs, filled with dead men's bones, fail miserably, and are even living within intentional disregard of certain of those laws that simply don't work for today, and routinely ignore the Spirit within who is our qualified and ONLY teachers who will never lead us astray.

What a powerful Spirit He is to be able to write upon our hearts His Law, and thus stating that we have no need for any man to teach us. The apostles brought the Gospel to the world, along with many men who since have spoken the word in the hearing of many who were raised up in faith, for faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I respect their right to believe as they wish, but they will not corrupt what the Lord has shown to so many of us who are not dried up and bitter old men and women seeking whom they may drag down to their level.

Glory to God for His rich mercy and grace toward us, especially me, a fallible man. The Lord is true, and all the rest of us are liars by comparison.

Jr

The four laws listed in Acts 15:19-21 are either an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or they are not. The moment you try to make an exception for other laws is the moment that the moment that these verses no longer make the argument that you want them to make. On the contrary, they excused those four laws in Acts 15:21 by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses every Sabbath in the synagogues.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Jesus never criticized the Pharisees for obeying the Mosaic Law, but he did criticize them for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not coming against the Mosaic Law, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, so being led by the Spirit is not good justification for refusing to submit to God's law, especially when in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who refuse to submit to God's law.
 
Upvote 0

SwordmanJr

Double-edged Sword only
Nov 11, 2014
1,200
402
Oklahoma City
✟43,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I would agree that Galatians does not say anything about whether or not Gentiles were observing God's holy days in accordance with the example that Christ set for them to follow and that Galatians 4:8-11 is speaking in regard to observing pagan holy days rather than God's holy days.

One will search in vain where Paul, the apostle to Gentiles, instructed the observance of feasts and holy days.

If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made....

I don't recall anyone saying that the Law changed, such as the New Covenant allowing what has always been sin. The conversation, at least from me, has consistently been about the superiority of the Law written in our hearts by the indwelling Law giver, which they did not have in the times before Christ. It is the difference between words written on stone tablets and papyrus, versus the Spirit within. The Law could never save anyone, and was not intended for that purpose.

Does it even make sense to you to interpret that passage as saying that we need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him?

You're asking the wrong question, because it assumes something I did not say. Instructions are only the beginning. What's missing in the lives of legalists is that they have not moved on into relationship with the One who is the Law Giver.

Do you really think that the correct interpretation of Matthew 15:11 is that Jesus was was teaching us to rebel against the Father?

Nope. I never even hinted at that. What Jesus showed to them is that the letter that kills pointed at what went into the man is what defiled him spiritually. They completely missed the spiritual foundations of the Law. So, you can either accept what Jesus said, or not. He clearly pointed out that nothing you eat can defile you spiritually.

At no point did Jesus ever saying anything like that the Father had made some mistakes when He gave the Mosaic Law, so he needed to edit it down to just what would later be recorded that he repeated. Likewise, he never rejected the holiness of the Father.

Your straw man arguments of a pathetic dodge away from what I actually said. It is about that which is superior. The Law was supposed to drive the Israelites to the Lord in understanding their inability to live it perfectly. It was intended to teach them to love and obey, both of which they failed at miserably. The prophets pointed to what was to come, in that the Law Giver would indwell His people, and write His Law upon their hearts. I never said anything about a DIFFERENT Law. You concocted that in your own imagination for whatever evil purpose you have in your campaign agenda.

Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so the fact that being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to sin conclusively demonstrates that we are still under God's law, which means that Romans 6:14 could not be referring to God's law. Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's holy, righteous, and good law, which Paul directly said was not sinful (Romans 7:7), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us.

The silkiness of your words only betray your lack of understanding. If you are "under" God's Law, which condemns, then good luck. I was never able to keep it, but if you think you are, then more power to you. I am under grace, and in that Grace is the Law He has written in my heart, which is superior to the written ordinancs that were and are inferior in any ability to give to any human the inner ability for a level of obedience that only what is written internally can effect. If your stimulus is external rather than internal, then you have journeyed back to ancient Israel and the sacrificial system governed by ordinances.

Jr
 
Upvote 0

SwordmanJr

Double-edged Sword only
Nov 11, 2014
1,200
402
Oklahoma City
✟43,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to becoming circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision....

You can ignore elements you don't like in the context all you want, but you clearly have subjective blinders on your eyes to see that the context ALSO included the Law of Moses in Peter's description of that burden too great to bear by his forefathers and them, which was specifically mentioned in that section of Acts 15. Your gross mishandling of the text is good indications of a serious problem in your way of handling the texts. It's way too subjective.

Jr
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,147
623
65
Michigan
✟325,466.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
One will search in vain where Paul, the apostle to Gentiles, instructed the observance of feasts and holy days.

1Cor. 5: 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dkh587
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SwordmanJr

Double-edged Sword only
Nov 11, 2014
1,200
402
Oklahoma City
✟43,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
1Cor. 5: 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Your carnal appeals to verses ripped from their context remain unimpressive. I revel and shout to others about the indwelling Spirit of God who alone is worthy f all praise and glory. YOU ar the one who keeps making this about me. YOU are the one with the focus problem. I'm just the messenger who points at the word of God as a start, but mostly at the One of whom it all speaks, and who indwells His people to write His Law in their hearts.

You don't seem to like that, for reasons of which only you among us all knows. I've rubbed your religion the wrong way by pointing ONLY to the Most High, so trying to turn the tables as if this all was about me, it's wasted effort.

Trying to put me on stage with ilk like Copeland and all the other self-centered charlatans out there, it's just not worth your time. I'm not looking for a following like all that vermin out there, so you may as well stop your campaign to try and make this about me.

Jr
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
One will search in vain where Paul, the apostle to Gentiles, instructed the observance of feasts and holy days.

In Colossians 2:16, Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's feasts and holy days.

I don't recall anyone saying that the Law changed, such as the New Covenant allowing what has always been sin. The conversation, at least from me, has consistently been about the superiority of the Law written in our hearts by the indwelling Law giver, which they did not have in the times before Christ. It is the difference between words written on stone tablets and papyrus, versus the Spirit within. The Law could never save anyone, and was not intended for that purpose.

For what purpose did you quote Hebrews 7:12? The law against murder written on stone is still the law against murder written on our heart, so it is not a superior law.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”

I agree that the law could never save anyone because it was never given for that purpose. Nevertheless, our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to God's law is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

You're asking the wrong question, because it assumes something I did not say. Instructions are only the beginning. What's missing in the lives of legalists is that they have not moved on into relationship with the One who is the Law Giver.

If you think that Romans 7:4 is a referring to the Law of Moses, then you are interpreting it as saying that we need to die to God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to live for Him. The whole point of God giving the Mosaic Law was to teach how to grow in a relationship with Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all the earth. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again God's laws are His instructions for how to know and be known by Him, or in other words how to grow in a relationship with Christ.

Nope. I never even hinted at that. What Jesus showed to them is that the letter that kills pointed at what went into the man is what defiled him spiritually. They completely missed the spiritual foundations of the Law. So, you can either accept what Jesus said, or not. He clearly pointed out that nothing you eat can defile you spiritually.

When God has commanded His people to do something, then for someone to try to say that what God has commanded has been revoked is to teach rebellion against God. Again, in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 13:4-5, God did not leave us any room to follow anyone who claims that any of His laws have been revoked. I accept what Jesus said, but I don't accept you interpreting what he said as being against what the Father has commanded, especially because the topic of conversation and the defilement in question had nothing to do with God's commands. He said nothing in regard to the point that the letter kills.

Your straw man arguments of a pathetic dodge away from what I actually said. It is about that which is superior. The Law was supposed to drive the Israelites to the Lord in understanding their inability to live it perfectly. It was intended to teach them to love and obey, both of which they failed at miserably. The prophets pointed to what was to come, in that the Law Giver would indwell His people, and write His Law upon their hearts. I never said anything about a DIFFERENT Law. You concocted that in your own imagination for whatever evil purpose you have in your campaign agenda.

You are the one who said that some things in the Law of Moses have been revoked. You said that you didn't recall anyone saying that the Law changed, but to say that there are things that have been revoked it to say that there are things that have changed and that it is a different law. The NT does not teach any sort of doctrine based on what has or has not been repeated in it. You cited Matthew 15:11 in regard to saying that there are things that have been revoked, not in regard to it being superior or in regard to the law driving the Israelites to the Lord in understanding their in ability to live it perfectly. Nowhere does the Bible state that the Mosaic Law was supposed to do that, but on the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need to have perfect obedience. The good kings tended to live much longer than the evil kings, the Israelites lived under a good king roughly 80% of the time, which was hardly a miserable failure.

The silkiness of your words only betray your lack of understanding. If you are "under" God's Law, which condemns, then good luck. I was never able to keep it, but if you think you are, then more power to you. I am under grace, and in that Grace is the Law He has written in my heart, which is superior to the written ordinancs that were and are inferior in any ability to give to any human the inner ability for a level of obedience that only what is written internally can effect. If your stimulus is external rather than internal, then you have journeyed back to ancient Israel and the sacrificial system governed by ordinances.

Jr

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as God's law, the law of sin, and works of the law, such as contrasting a law of works with a law of faith in Romans 3:27 and contrasted God's law with the law of sin in Romans 7:25, so if you assume that Paul was always speaking about God's law, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him. God's law is not a law where sin had dominion over us, but rather it is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). Thinking that we are unable to keep the law or that God gave His law in order to condemn His children makes Him out to be an unloving Father when in reality He is a loving Father who gave His law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and in order to bring us life (Deuteronomy 30:15-16, 32:47). In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what being under grace looks like. In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been an internal matter of the heart.

You can ignore elements you don't like in the context all you want, but you clearly have subjective blinders on your eyes to see that the context ALSO included the Law of Moses in Peter's description of that burden too great to bear by his forefathers and them, which was specifically mentioned in that section of Acts 15. Your gross mishandling of the text is good indications of a serious problem in your way of handling the texts. It's way too subjective.

Jr

I'm not ignoring any elements, but you ignored my question. God said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 that His law is not too difficult to obey. Do you think that God was correct? Do you think that David expressed a correct view of the Mosaic Law? If so, then we should share it. If not, you are denying that the Psalms are Scripture, and the view that God's law is a heavy burden that no one could bear is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. Pointing out that your interpretation of Acts 15 is making the Jerusalem Council out to be in direct disagreement with God is by no means a gross mishandling of the text. A gross mishandling of the text would be someone insisting that the Jerusalem Council was in direct disagreement with God and that God was incorrect.
 
Upvote 0

SwordmanJr

Double-edged Sword only
Nov 11, 2014
1,200
402
Oklahoma City
✟43,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In Colossians 2:16, Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's feasts and holy days.

Oh, so now you're going to play the victim card by eluding to the idea that you're being judged? That's a false accusation.If that's what you're getting at. If you go back and read what I've said, you will see that I have said nothing about YOU personally keeping the feasts and holidays. I've even encouraged you and others to "go for it."

I never had any qualms with others doing those things and more. I never had problems with you legalists keeping the Law to the best of your ability, except in that it will not save you. My only issue was YOU people claiming that all others should place themselves under the Law of Moses and the traditions of the Jews.

You really need to get a grip on yourself.

Bottom line: There is no reason to go back to the letter of the Law now that we have thee indwelling Law Giver in our hearts, and who writes His Law within our hearts. I have also said that it can be a good thing to study the Law of Moses and the prophets. And yet here you are writing long posts of the same old rhetoric the early Church was hearing from the Judaisers.

No thanks. I remain unimpressed. Repeating the same fallacies over and over will not make your case any more plausible. Your continued ploys for using false accusations against me are wasted typing time. Everybody here can read what I have said, and clearly see you are a false accuser. I get enough of that from the devil, I don't need it from you as well to the extent that I remain in conversation with you.

Read what I have actually said, and THEN maybe we can converse. Otherwise go your way and pester and waste the time and energy of someone else.

Jr
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SwordmanJr

Double-edged Sword only
Nov 11, 2014
1,200
402
Oklahoma City
✟43,962.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Legalism is the corruption of virtue caused by misapplying, inventing or over-exalting commandments, feasts and holy days, especially those that do not have any practical application under the New Covenant (in Christ Jesus (Yeshua)) period of mankind's history. It demands continued or renewed adherence to the things of old that are inferior to that perfect sacrifice through the blood of Christ Jesus, and the indwelling Spirit, and the Law written WITHIN our hearts rather than merely upon tablets of stone, papyrus and paper.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Oh, so now you're going to play the victim card by eluding to the idea that you're being judged? That's a false accusation.If that's what you're getting at. If you go back and read what I've said, you will see that I have said nothing about YOU personally keeping the feasts and holidays. I've even encouraged you and others to "go for it."

I never had any qualms with others doing those things and more. I never had problems with you legalists keeping the Law to the best of your ability, except in that it will not save you. My only issue was YOU people claiming that all others should place themselves under the Law of Moses and the traditions of the Jews.

You really need to get a grip on yourself.

Bottom line: There is no reason to go back to the letter of the Law now that we have thee indwelling Law Giver in our hearts, and who writes His Law within our hearts. I have also said that it can be a good thing to study the Law of Moses and the prophets. And yet here you are writing long posts of the same old rhetoric the early Church was hearing from the Judaisers.

No thanks. I remain unimpressed. Repeating the same fallacies over and over will not make your case any more plausible. Your continued ploys for using false accusations against me are wasted typing time. Everybody here can read what I have said, and clearly see you are a false accuser. I get enough of that from the devil, I don't need it from you as well to the extent that I remain in conversation with you.

Read what I have actually said, and THEN maybe we can converse. Otherwise go your way and pester and waste the time and energy of someone else.

Jr

I said nothing about being a victim or about being judged or about accusing you of anything. You claimed:

One will search in vain where Paul, the apostle to Gentiles, instructed the observance of feasts and holy days.

So I quoted Colossians 2:16 to demonstrate you were wrong. So please take your own advise and read what I actually said, then maybe we can converse.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Legalism is the corruption of virtue caused by misapplying, inventing or over-exalting commandments, feasts and holy days, especially those that do not have any practical application under the New Covenant (in Christ Jesus (Yeshua)) period of mankind's history. It demands continued or renewed adherence to the things of old that are inferior to that perfect sacrifice through the blood of Christ Jesus, and the indwelling Spirit, and the Law written WITHIN our hearts rather than merely upon tablets of stone, papyrus and paper.

The Mosaic Law is what defines virtue. Saying things like some of God's laws have been revoked is the corruption of virtue and is misapplying and inventing reasons to reject God's laws. God did not leave any room for His people to follow anyone who claims that any of His laws have been revoked, but rather that is how God specifically instructed His people recognize that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him. The New Covenant still involves following God's Law (Jeremiah 31:33), which Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example. The law against murder written on stone is the same as the law against murder written our hearts. The reason why the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts is so that we will follow it, not so that we will consider it to be inferior.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I said nothing about being a victim or about being judged or about accusing you of anything. You claimed:



So I quoted Colossians 2:16 to demonstrate you were wrong. So please take your own advise and read what I actually said, then maybe we can converse.
every time the church partakes of the Lord's supper they are keeping the Lord's passover.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
every time the church partakes of the Lord's supper they are keeping the Lord's passover.

If every time the church partakes of the Lord's supper is when it is the first month on the fourteenth day at twilight (Leviticus 23:5), then you would be correct.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
If every time the church partakes of the Lord's supper is when it is the first month on the fourteenth day at twilight (Leviticus 23:5), then you would be correct.
It is not according to the old leaven.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,912.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
It is not according to the old leaven.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Indeed, Passover involved eating unleavened bread. Leaven represents sin, as seen by Paul referring to the leaven of malice and wickedness in opposition to sincerity and truth. Nothing in his statements suggest that he was encouraging the Corinthians to do anything other than continue to celebrate the annual festival of Passover in obedience to God's command. Do you think that the correct interpretation of that verse is that Paul was teaching the Corinthians against obeying what God has commanded?
 
Upvote 0