Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

Marilyn C

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Exactly, He is preparing a place for us now. But the dead in Christ leave heaven at the second advent to populate the new earth. The bride is represented as the holy city. Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”


This Second Coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.

Premillennialism divorces Christ from the eternal city He is preparing now. It also evacuates the New Jerusalem at the second coming and forbids the saints entry to it for 1,000 years. Why would Christ emphasise the eternal glory and comfort of this city He is preparing for His people if they were not going to immediately enjoy it when they die or when He appears? The whole promise of John 14:1-3 is negated by this theological school of thought. Premillennialism must also ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the Coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

No wonder 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, “as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

I guess if I was to sum up the great difficulty I have with Premillennialism on this matter, it is its constant focus upon the natural city Jerusalem, and their notion that God's favour is upon this Christ-rejecting people, rather than focusing like Abraham upon that city that embraces the true chosen of God – the New Jerusalem. The New Testament constantly directs our eyes toward the heavenly Jerusalem, whereas Premils are constantly speaking of, and speculating about, the old Jerusalem, which we know is likened today unto Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11) and is now "in bondage with her children" (Galatians 4:22-26).

The Body of Christ is never called the `Bride.` The reference in Rev. 3: 12 refers to the authority the Body of Christ will have -


Ruling in 3 Realms. (Name of God, Name of the City of God, the New Jerusalem &
Christ`s New Name. Rev.3: 12)


A `Name` is used to give the character & function of a place or person.


The New Name of Christ. This is His New position as King Priest over the New order of King Priests in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

The Name of the city of God, the New Jerusalem that comes down out of the third heaven to the Universal area over the earth. (Rev. 21: 2)


The Name of God is His authority over all His vast kingdom. This includes the new earth peopled by Israel & the nations. (Isa. 66: 22 Rev. 21: 24)

The overcomers are given authority in Christ in all these realms.

 
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Marilyn C

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So with regard to the New Jerusalem, if you say it is ON the earth then -

1. How can the whole earth `walk in its light?` (Rev. 21: 24)
2. Why do you need walls to protect you? (Rev. 21: 14)
3. Who are the kings and nations that are on the new earth? (Rev. 21: 24)
4. Why do the nations need healing? (Rev. 22: 2)
5. Is the Lord physically ruling on the new earth forever?
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Body of Christ is never called the `Bride.` The reference in Rev. 3: 12 refers to the authority the Body of Christ will have -


Ruling in 3 Realms. (Name of God, Name of the City of God, the New Jerusalem &
Christ`s New Name. Rev.3: 12)


A `Name` is used to give the character & function of a place or person.


The New Name of Christ. This is His New position as King Priest over the New order of King Priests in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

The Name of the city of God, the New Jerusalem that comes down out of the third heaven to the Universal area over the earth. (Rev. 21: 2)


The Name of God is His authority over all His vast kingdom. This includes the new earth peopled by Israel & the nations. (Isa. 66: 22 Rev. 21: 24)

The overcomers are given authority in Christ in all these realms.

This shows how ignorant and deceptive Dispensationalism is. The text refutes your error. There is only one people of God.

Jesus brought a radical revolutionary message to the early Jewish disciples. He told them that there are others that are not of this flock (namely not of the Jewish race) that belong to Him, who will be integrated into His sheepfold. He was talking here of the Gentiles. What is more, He describes how these two peoples (both Jews and Gentiles) would be united together in Him and become one flock! Jesus is here acknowledging that salvation would not be limited to the Jewish race. He was predicting that the Gospel would expand out and embrace the nations. He explains that there would then be a fusion of the believing element of both ethnic groups into one cohesive believing sheepfold – with Him as a Shepherd. This indeed happened 2000 years ago.

It is highly unlikely that these early Jewish disciples immediately, or fully, grasped the enormity of these words from Jesus back in the day. This is seen in their huge struggle to integrate Gentile converts into faithful Israel on an equal footing though a large part of Acts, and their desire to have the Gentile converts circumcised. Of course, today, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see the magnitude of what our Lord was saying, and grasp how much of a game-changer this statement was. Undoubtedly, it was a pivotal moment in time, and it was a turning point for the plan of God in history. It revealed a seismic change of direction. It disclosed a monumental alteration of focus.

Christ was informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of Israel’s borders. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same harmonious fold of grace as the Jewish believers. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn’t indicate “two folds” any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond in the New Testament represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply showed the variety of members within the one godly flock. Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus become one in the Messiah to an extent not seen under the Mosaic Covenant. While Christians may retain their natural identity when they come to Christ (whether that is racial, social standing or gender), these groupings carry no spiritual distinction, special favor or difference religious under the new covenant.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So with regard to the New Jerusalem, if you say it is ON the earth then -

1. How can the whole earth `walk in its light?` (Rev. 21: 24)
2. Why do you need walls to protect you? (Rev. 21: 14)
3. Who are the kings and nations that are on the new earth? (Rev. 21: 24)
4. Why do the nations need healing? (Rev. 22: 2)
5. Is the Lord physically ruling on the new earth forever?

There is much symbolic language to articulate the perfection of the eternal state - with Christ as the inheritance. The believer is eternally healed. It shows the provision of the new earth toward the elect of all time. There is one people of God.

The Premil millennium is a non-corroborative private interpretation.
 
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Marilyn C

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Stop avoiding please:
  • Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
  • Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
  • Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

"For on my holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in their land, shall serve me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the first-fruits of your sacrifices together with all your holy things.

I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel for which I lifted my hand in an oath to give to your fathers.


And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils you have committed. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for my name`s sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel." says the Lord God. (Ez. 20: 40 44)

 
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sovereigngrace

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"For on my holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in their land, shall serve me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the first-fruits of your sacrifices together with all your holy things.

I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel for which I lifted my hand in an oath to give to your fathers.


And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils you have committed. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for my name`s sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel." says the Lord God. (Ez. 20: 40 44)

Stop avoiding please:
  • Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
  • Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
  • Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?
 
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Marilyn C

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There is much symbolic language to articulate the perfection of the eternal state - with Christ as the inheritance. The believer is eternally healed. It shows the provision of the new earth toward the elect of all time. There is one people of God.

The Premil millennium is a non-corroborative private interpretation.

Yes there is symbolic language. Care to share?
So we have people in the new Jerusalem & then those kings and nations outside. Mmmm All God`s people but distinct names there - kings, nations, and those in the New Jerusalem.
 
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Marilyn C

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Stop avoiding please:
  • Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
  • Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
  • Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

I gave God`s answer.

If you want more then I think it only fair that you give answers to my questions.
 
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Marilyn C

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But they are the saints.
Revelation 6:9-11


Revelation 7:9-14
Right there.. we see those white robes, are the saints, and, it demonstrates not pretrib rapture.
.

`the seven angels....clothed in pure white linen...` (Rev. 16: 6)

Jesus said -


`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)


 
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Jamdoc

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`the seven angels....clothed in pure white linen...` (Rev. 16: 6)

Jesus said -


`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

To gather the saints, yes
but after that gathering, we're always with Him.
So in the scripture I showed you, I show that the gathering of the saints takes place before the return on the white horse, and that when He comes down on the white horse, He's with His saints, 2 separate events, coming in the clouds, coming down on a white horse.

Revelation 6:12-13 and 14:14 show language that is like Matthew 24's description of the Rapture and Revelation 19 shows a VERY DIFFERENT coming of our Lord, where He's not here to resurrect and gather the saints but to reclaim a kingdom and destroy the beast.
 
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BABerean2

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Yet we read later that Peter still tried to get the gentile believers to act like Jews. (Gal. 2: 11 - 15) Then we know that Paul withstood him.


Paul corrected Peter for treating the Jewish Christians differently than the Gentile Christians.

Those promoting your doctrine are committing the same error today, in an effort to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.



.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I gave God`s answer.

If you want more then I think it only fair that you give answers to my questions.

If you cannot answer fair, simple and straightforward questions then it is pointless continuing.

Thanks for the conversation.
 
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Marilyn C

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To gather the saints, yes
but after that gathering, we're always with Him.
So in the scripture I showed you, I show that the gathering of the saints takes place before the return on the white horse, and that when He comes down on the white horse, He's with His saints, 2 separate events, coming in the clouds, coming down on a white horse.

Revelation 6:12-13 and 14:14 show language that is like Matthew 24's description of the Rapture and Revelation 19 shows a VERY DIFFERENT coming of our Lord, where He's not here to resurrect and gather the saints but to reclaim a kingdom and destroy the beast.

So where are the scriptures to show that we the Body of Christ return to earth?
 
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Marilyn C

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Paul corrected Peter for treating the Jewish Christians differently than the Gentile Christians.

Those promoting your doctrine are committing the same error today, in an effort to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.



.

There are more than two people groups in God`s purposes in Christ.
 
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Marilyn C

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Stop avoiding please:
  • Is the physical temple rebuilt in your alleged future millennium?
  • Is the Levitical priesthood restored in your alleged future millennium?
  • Are blood sacrifices restarted in your alleged future millennium?

1. The physical temple is revealed in Ezekiel 40 - 48.
2. The Levitical priesthood will be restored as the prophet Isaiah tells us - "And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the Lord.` (Isa. 66: 21)
3. The Lord requires their `offerings and the first-fruits of your sacrifices.` (Ez. 20: 40) The detail of the sacrifices are in Ez. 45: 18 - 25 concerning the cleansing of the Temple, making atonement for the temple and keeping the Feasts.

What Israel did not do previously God requires them to do, so that God `will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles.` (Ez. 20: 41)
 
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sovereigngrace

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1. The physical temple is revealed in Ezekiel 40 - 48.
2. The Levitical priesthood will be restored as the prophet Isaiah tells us - "And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the Lord.` (Isa. 66: 21)
3. The Lord requires their `offerings and the first-fruits of your sacrifices.` (Ez. 20: 40) The detail of the sacrifices are in Ez. 45: 18 - 25 concerning the cleansing of the Temple, making atonement for the temple and keeping the Feasts.

What Israel did not do previously God requires them to do, so that God `will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles.` (Ez. 20: 41)

Your suggestion that animal sacrifices will be literally restored in the house of God after the coming of Christ is prohibited by clear New Testament Scripture. Moreover, the one-off nature and eternal significance of the cross coupled with the explicit (and repeated) teaching pertaining to the same in the New Testament strongly forbids the Lord reintroducing the old covenant temple, animal sacrifices and priesthood. The expiatory nature of the sin offerings associated with Ezekiel’s temple restricts a literal understanding of it to a time-period preceding the Cross. The fact is, the old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has been eternally abolished.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

Can you not see this or grasp this? How can any of us serious take the Premil boast that they are literalists? They aren’t.

Ezekiel is talking about the full operation of the OT sacrifices. For the Premillennialist to insist on their return is both startling and highly objectionable. The Premillennial system re-introduces the full abolished old covenant sacrifices: meat offerings (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20), sin offerings (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20), trespass offerings (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20), burnt offerings (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15), peace offerings (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12), drink offerings (Ezekiel 45:17).

Which one of these sacrifices did Calvary not remove forever?

The Premillennialist would try and take us back to the old covenant system and re-introduce an abolished system that is unpleasing to God. What they fail to grasp, the substitutionary atonement of Christ is simply prefigured in the Old Testament sacrifices.

The ceremonial law was simply a signpost to Christ. No more. The cross removed this imperfect system. The shadow and the temporal could only remain until the real and eternal arrived. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? After Christ comes there is no need for the typical sacrifices on the new earth? The fulfilment, the reality, the substance, will be in the midst of God's people. The shadow has been long discarded.

Hebrews 10:5-6 tells us, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.”

There is no room in the plan of God for the return of the imperfect Old Testament sacrifices. Once Christ (the final sacrifice) came and fulfilled His destiny by dying for man’s sin the former was done away. The old has been eternally abolished. God took upon human form. The Son of God being perfect could testify: “a body hast thou prepared me.” That body was perfect and His sacrifice was the sacrifice of sacrifices – the one that ended all the old covenant sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:8-10 confirms: Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

The old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has now been replaced by the new covenant with its focus upon the one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. The New Testament disallows the re-introduction of the abolished sacrifices and offerings. Christ is that final offering for sin.

Hebrews 10:14-20 then affirms, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.”

Many Premils say there are more offerings for sin in the millennium, presenting the old covenant passages of Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20 as supposed evidence.

Hebrews 10:26 says, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

I can assure you: I will never accept this offensive doctrine. It is anti-biblical and antichrist. It is an attack upon the character of Christ, the truth of His Word and the eternal nature of His office, sacrifice and new covenant. You failed to prove your theory. You will never prove it.

It is both alarming and sad how many (that sincerely profess Christ) champion the re-starting of rival sin offerings in the future to compete with Calvary when Christ fulfilled and eternally removed them at the Cross. Most of this error has emanated from false teaching of men that should know better. The fact is, the New Testament totally forbids the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. Their expectation to return to the Old Testament type, shadow and figure is gravely misplaced.

It is as if Christ’s perfect life, atoning death and glorious resurrection are not enough for Premils; not perfect enough, not satisfactory enough, and not final enough.

Christ is man's only substitute for sin. Why would we need other substitutes for sin? Surely this is a serious assault upon the merits and value of the atonement. Premillennialism demeans the work Christ did on the cross . It anticipates countless competing substitutes on the new earth with Christ in the midst in all His glory practising rejected old covenant sin offerings.

There will be no need for animal sacrifices, human priests, and a physical temple – because Christ will be all in all on the new earth. Christ is the final covering for sin. He is the fulfilment of every sin offering. There is therefore absolutely no biblical warrant for resurrecting the old covenant Judaic sacrificial system outside of rebelling against the fact that Christ is the one eternal sacrifice for sin. This is a very serious matter. Christ has made that final satisfactory sacrifice for sin. The old ordinances were nailed to the tree with Christ. The old covenant was removed with the introduction of the new, yet Premils insist on the re-starting of these abolished sacrifices.

The shedding of His blood satisfied the Father and reconciled the sinner to God, securing eternal redemption (1 John 1:7). By attempting to reintroduce animal sacrifices, Premillennialism does great injury to the work of Christ on the Cross, undoes the once all-sufficient sacrifice that Christ made for sin, undermines the eternal nature of the atonement, and disregards numerous New Testament passages that conclusively prove that Christ’s blood sacrifice was final and eternal. The Old Testament system that employed animal sacrifices was nailed to the Cross and blotted out according to the New Testament.
 
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BABerean2

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There are more than two people groups in God`s purposes in Christ.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.
 
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Jamdoc

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So where are the scriptures to show that we the Body of Christ return to earth?

I already pointed out, that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 shows that where Jesus goes, we go. So if you have a rapture at all, then when Jesus comes to earth, we come with Him. Only way you would not have a return to earth is if there's no rapture at all (so we'd never leave earth). But ultimately, millennial kingdom, saints would be on the earth, new heavens and new earth, saints on the earth. So at some point, if Sants are in heaven at all, they come back to earth.

Revelation 19, to me at least, shows where, that return is.
 
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