The Quicksand Dilemma

Well I have heard of stuff like this before. People without religion praying to some unknown deity for help and receiving some form of help and accrediting it to the Judeo-Christian God later on after they convert etc.


In terms of history, saint Paul while in Athens is touring the temple area of the city, seeing various altars to various God's. I believe that was Mars Hill, but after seeing many different ones, eventually comes across one "To the Unknown God" (an altar apparently used a bit like "the Tomb of the Unknown soldier" as a place holder for all the unknown) and he uses that a segue to preach for Christianity in the book of Acts to the Athenians.


In "Dialogue of Trypho" (or some other work of Justin Martyr), somewhere there is a passage that hints that the Holy Spirit at times can move on other religions for His purposes especially to prepare them for various Christian ideas later etc. That passage or idea though is much different than most of the theme of the book which is more negative about pagan religions etc.


But there are some vague theological ideas around Logos in Christian theology, as well as humanity being "Created in the Image of God"that can lead to ideas like this. And of course there is the meaning of the root word of religion, especially "To Bind" that I got from Joseph Campbell. All the various "religions" display the wish of humans to be linked / have a relationship with the Creator God.

Sin = missing the mark.
The mark is, to love the Lord your God with All one's body, spirit and mind and to love others as you love yourself.
No one does that, so no one is " not bad ", rather everyone is a sinner.

The pagan/heathen do not worship, love or serve the Lord.
Jews seek to but fall short.
Christian seek to but fall short.

We all deserve God's rightous judgement.

Only faith in God's atonement through Jesus deals with our sin.

God can save the least deserving one from the quicksand, in order to prove Himself and show His mercy.

Jesus on the cross so suffered and died in order to save us who were undeserving.

And this is our example of how we need to have hope for any person.

Totodile386 said:

We can't be blamed.

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If we break God's law we can and will be owned the ultimate command is to be perfect as the Lord your God is perfect.

Totodile386 said:

What you said makes me think of this, which is also relevant for other matters today:

"If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible." -- Leviticus 5:17

So even if someone is unaware that they have sinned, they still must repent!

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If that means they are accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour and becoming a Christian yes.
Otherwise it is pointless.
E.g. the tax office sends you a tax demand, one you cannot pay. Is the tax office impressed by a letter saying how sorry you are?

All sins have to be paid for/ stoned for and only Jesus can do it. Unless of course one preferrs eternal separation from God and all he represents.

Totodile386 said:

What you said makes me think of this, which is also relevant for other matters today:

"If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible." -- Leviticus 5:17

So even if someone is unaware that they have sinned, they still must repent!

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Which is impossible.

Totodile386 said:

This chiefly pagan and heathen problem can be called "the quicksand dilemma".

Suppose you are from a pagan upbringing -- you are not perfect, but you're certainly not bad.

Anyway, you're just walking along the path, and suddenly, you slip, and you're sinking in quicksand!

Most Christians would instantly or automatically know to ask God for help.

But sadly, your brain simply doesn't have that in mind; instead, you have only imaginary idols that you perceive to have any hope of saving you, or worse, if you're heathen, there's absolutely no one but some other person who has a sporting chance of saving you here.

Christian: AAAHH! Quicksand! Help me, Lord!

But not is Christian. In this scenario, you are one not knowing Elohim, you don't know who to call!

You: UHHH?? My own devices! Someone! Anyone!

But God probably hears this, anyway, and if there is any good in you, not unlikely to display mercy and compassion.

Just a thought worth seeing. That is all.

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I do not remember if there is a text in the Hebrew Scriptures that covers this other than Abraham's faith.

Romans 2
14 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

Basically, each person is judged by God based on the light, knowledge they have.

Totodile386 said:

What you said makes me think of this, which is also relevant for other matters today:

"If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible." -- Leviticus 5:17

So even if someone is unaware that they have sinned, they still must repent!

Click to expand...

Leviticus 5
Good News Translation
Cases Requiring Sin Offerings
5 Sin offerings are required in the following cases.

If you are officially summoned to give evidence in court and do not give information about something you have seen or heard, you must suffer the consequences.

2 If you unintentionally touch anything ritually unclean, such as a dead animal, you are unclean and guilty as soon as you realize what you have done.

3 If you unintentionally touch anything of human origin that is unclean, whatever it may be, you are guilty as soon as you realize what you have done.

4 If you make a careless vow, no matter what it is about, you are guilty as soon as you realize what you have done.

5 When you are guilty, you must confess the sin, 6 and as the penalty for your sin you must bring to the Lord a female sheep or goat as an offering. The priest shall offer the sacrifice for your sin.

7 If you cannot afford a sheep or a goat, you shall bring to the Lord as the payment for your sin two doves or two pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 8 You shall bring them to the priest, who will first offer the bird for the sin offering. He will break its neck without pulling off its head 9 and sprinkle some of its blood against the side of the altar. The rest of the blood will be drained out at the base of the altar. This is an offering to take away sin. 10 Then he shall offer the second bird as a burnt offering, according to the regulations. In this way the priest shall offer the sacrifice for your sin, and you will be forgiven.

11 If you cannot afford two doves or two pigeons, you shall bring two pounds of flour as a sin offering. You shall not put any olive oil or any incense on it, because it is a sin offering, not a grain offering. 12 You shall bring it to the priest, who will take a handful of it as a token that it has all been offered to the Lord, and he will burn it on the altar as a food offering. It is an offering to take away sin. 13 In this way the priest shall offer the sacrifice for your sin, and you will be forgiven. The rest of the flour belongs to the priest, just as in the case of a grain offering.

Repayment Offerings
14 The Lord gave the following regulations to Moses. 15 If any of you sin unintentionally by failing to hand over the payments that are sacred to the Lord, you shall bring as your repayment offering to the Lord a male sheep or goat without any defects. Its value is to be determined according to the official standard. 16 You must make the payments you have failed to hand over and must pay an additional 20 percent. You shall give it to the priest, and the priest shall offer the animal as a sacrifice for your sin, and you will be forgiven.

17 If any of you sin unintentionally by breaking any of the Lord's commands, you are guilty and must pay the penalty. 18 You must bring to the priest as a repayment offering a male sheep or goat without any defects. Its value is to be determined according to the official standard. The priest shall offer the sacrifice for the sin which you committed unintentionally, and you will be forgiven. 19 It is a repayment offering for the sin you committed against the Lord.

In context, the text does not refer to pagans.

read to here

God seems to have even recognized a sense of repentance among the Philistines ( 1 Samuel 6 ). I think the general sense of God’s law written in our hearts extends back to the law given to Noah in Genesis 9 & expression found like in Psalms 15.

Lukaris said:

God seems to have even recognized a sense of repentance among the Philistines ( 1 Samuel 6 ). I think the general sense of God’s law written in our hearts extends back to the law given to Noah in Genesis 9 & expression found like in Psalms 15.

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Was the law on Abraham's heart?

Daniel Marsh said:

Was the law on Abraham's heart?

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As far as the law that was given to Noah, I would think yes. David says the law of God is in the heart of the righteous ( Psalms 37:30-31 & distinguishes between the righteous & wicked in Psalms 37).

Abraham was of higher election though to be a model of faith ( see Hebrews 11, particularly Hebrews 11:8-13).

God spoke to Abraham before he was saved and he preached to the Ninevites by Jonah to save them. And others. Jesus healed many people that just came to him for healing and many of them did not thank him or come to faith. Remember on 500 at the ascension. God has mercy on whom He will, it’s up to Him. But I imagine many a Christian or unsaved pagan has died in the quicksand.
That example is only an example of Gods mercy but wouldn’t happen every time, it could happen for Gods purposes like unto Paul.

Totodile386 said:

This chiefly pagan and heathen problem can be called "the quicksand dilemma".

Suppose you are from a pagan upbringing -- you are not perfect, but you're certainly not bad.

Anyway, you're just walking along the path, and suddenly, you slip, and you're sinking in quicksand!

Most Christians would instantly or automatically know to ask God for help.

But sadly, your brain simply doesn't have that in mind; instead, you have only imaginary idols that you perceive to have any hope of saving you, or worse, if you're heathen, there's absolutely no one but some other person who has a sporting chance of saving you here.

Christian: AAAHH! Quicksand! Help me, Lord!

But not is Christian. In this scenario, you are one not knowing Elohim, you don't know who to call!

You: UHHH?? My own devices! Someone! Anyone!

But God probably hears this, anyway, and if there is any good in you, not unlikely to display mercy and compassion.

Just a thought worth seeing. That is all.

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I note you're Jewish, but I'm assuming this has no bearing on the post.

For the record, if a Christian, a Jew and a Pagan / Heathen were walking along and they fell into quicksand separately, they might have different reactions. The Christian might call on their Christian God, the Jew might call for Jehovah (or whatever modern Jews call God) and the Pagan would just call "Is there anybody there?"

But they'd probably all die anyway, unless there was some practical means of escape lying at hand, or someone came along and pulled them out.

God generally allows the physical laws of this universe, which He designed from Black Holes to butterflies (and quicksand), to hold sway, and doesn't often seem to interfere in a miraculous fashion, although I have no doubt He does from time to time.

As Christians we believe in a judgement after death, so what happens NEXT would be the 64 dollar question, regardless of what we believe.