Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

sovereigngrace

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I think you're misinterpreting acknowledgement of what scripture says about Satan having power, position, and authority over this wicked world, as lauding.
We don't give Satan any more power than scripture attributes to him, and we don't love him and we want that power taken away by Jesus ASAP.
All we're doing is acknowledging what scripture says.
If scripture says that Satan gives the beast his power, his seat, and great authority, that means that Satan has those things, from God, for God's purposes, to give. We trust God's judgement on this and at the same time we hate that he has anything like that. I pray that Satan is without power and authority the way you see it, but that is just not scriptural.

What is also not scriptural, and what I see your position falling into a trap in, is this concept that the gospel conquers the entire world, that things will get continually better and better, that instead of having a great falling away, we'll have great revivals...
The problem is, scripture and prophecy don't indicate that. Scripture and prophecy indicate a world that is decaying into further and further wickedness, things get worse and worse and it is only when Jesus comes in the clouds that anything better happens. I can't pretend to understand the purposes of a millennial kingdom, it doesn't make sense that there would be a revolt after 1000 years of peace living under Christ's rule, it doesn't make sense why not just make the new earth and eternity now and just throw Satan into the lake of fire forever and ever at the 2nd coming of Christ. I would want that.
But scripture says otherwise... so I have to trust that God is wiser than me and there is a REASON for these things to happen.

Premils are always talking about the power, ability and influence of Satan. They want to talk about how strong he is and what he is accomplishing. They try their best to give him access to heaven, even though he has been cast out of it forever. In doing so, they dethrone Christ from His sovereign role as king and ruler of this globe.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning, they divest Christ of His rightful power.

Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king?

There are two aspects to the kingship of Christ. The first is the whole sphere of Christ’s providential rule over all creation. Revelation 1:5 reveals that Christ is the Sovereign archon or “Prince (or ruler) of the kings of the earth.” Christ currently rules over His enemies. The second aspect is the whole realm of Christ’s spiritual reign over all His new creation – the blood-bought Church. Revelation 15:3 tells us that He is the “King of saints.” It is only this second domain that is incorporated within the spiritual confines of the kingdom of God.

Paul and Silas had such an effect Jew and Greek in Thessalonica preaching , On the missionary journey of they saw many people come to faith in Christ, both The unbelieving Jews, being very angry, attempted to arrest the Apostles but not finding them, brought Jason and certain of the converts before the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus (Acts 17:6-7).

Understanding the difference between these two realms is essential to comprehending the true nature of the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

Psalm 24:7-8 says, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.”

The term ‘archon’ or ‘ruler’ is found again in Acts 5:30-31 where Peter is seen addressing the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders. There he declares, The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a archon (or) Prince (or ruler) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

There is His divine sovereign kingship over all creation as God, but there is also His Messianic kingship over His people – His elect, both Jew and Gentile, old covenant and new covenant. These do not conflict, but correlate beautifully. He reigns as God and man through this dualistic kingship. It involves His humanity and deity.

Any authority belonging to, or exercised by, the Church must ultimately emanate from the One who bestows it – Jesus Christ.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Thing is, Isaiah shows that these sacrifices will happen but they will be displeasing to the Lord. Even using their old testament, modern orthodox Jews do not seem to grasp that animal sacrifices will not be pleasing to God, and any temple they build, will not be inhabited by His spirit.
They will still build it and sacrifice in it anyway in their blindness.
They've been weeping and touching and praying to a wall of a Roman fort, a Roman fort that destroyed their temple (remember Jesus said not one stone of it would be left standing on the other, it was completely destroyed, there isn't an intact wall left)... just utter blasphemy is what they do and what they will do. Their temple if they build it on the site of that roman fort, will also be blasphemy, their sacrifices will be blasphemy. But they still want to do it.

Note something... Matthew 23:39, as Jesus was leaving the temple.


Until they acknowledge Jesus, until they say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord".. He won't enter any temple they build.
Then He predicted the temple would be utterly destroyed.. but He gave a condition on which they would see Him enter a temple again.

The whole restoration of sin offerings is a farce and an offence to God. You previously presented them as acceptable and honorable - saying they are memorial sacrifices. You have now done a complete U-turn. I think you realize this whole arrangement is abolished forever in God's economy.
 
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Timtofly

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To disobey the explicit instruction of God to fellowship is sin. It is selfish and prideful for someone to think they do not need the body of Christ, and the body of Christ does not need you.

Why should we attend the local church regular?

1. God’s Word commands it.
2. God’s people have always done it throughout history, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament and since Bible times.
3. Jesus (our ultimate example) did it.
4. The very word “church” (ecclesia) actually means gathering or assembly of God’s people.
5. It allows us to build up healthy spiritual relations with others of a kindred spirit.
6. It enables you to receive spiritual edification from the rest of the body. There is strength for each member when the whole body is functioning as one. One member possesses something the other doesn’t.
7. Church fellowship is another means of crushing our flesh. Being under the Gospel and being around godly people keeps us on fire and on the straight and narrow.
8. God’s people meeting together means more talent being employed to reach more people. An active local church affords opportunities for God’s people to serve God. They can employ their gifting for the Lord. It provides an opportunity for you to exercise your gifts, callings and abilities among God’s people and among the lost.
9. How else are you able to fulfil the many crucial spiritual demands to the body to “receive ye one another” (Romans 15:7), “consider one another” Hebrews 10:24), “comfort one another” (1 Thessalonians 4:18), “edify one another” (1 Thessalonians 5:11), “admonish one another” (Romans 15:14), “exhort one another” (Hebrews 3:13, 10:24), “do good … unto them who are of the household of faith” (Galatians 6:10) “care one for another” (1 Cor 12:25), ‘prefer one another’ (Romans 12:10), “serve one another” (Galatians 5:13), “forbearing one another in love” (Ephesians 4:3), “forgiving one another” (Ephesians 4:32), “pray one for another” (James 5:16)?
10.You receive (or should receive) the Word of God on a regular basis from a Pastor that God has called and separated specifically to minister. He in turn should be able to give his life, his time and his efforts to tending to the spiritual needs of the local body. Being able (as an occupation) to focus exclusively upon the ministry, he should be more capable of hearing from God and then in turn bringing the heart of God to the local body.
11.There is an intensification of spiritual power when believers meet together in faith, unity and truth. There is spiritual power in agreement.
12.It curtails the influence and power of Satan.
13.When things get tough there is a Christian support base able to uphold and support you through the trials of life. Church fellowship facilitates mutual encouragement.
14.Having a local church/congregation means there is a local place to congregate for local believers to praise, worship and thank Jesus and collectively pray.
15.When some searching or hurting sinner is seeking spiritual help and hope, they know there is a spiritual lighthouse in that community where they can receive assistance.
16.It offers converts to the faith a place of worship and a place to grow and be nurtured in the faith.
17.It stops us from backsliding. If you wander there are others to point you back to where you should be.
18.There is accountability. There is a covering. Being part of a body ministry provides protection from the false accuser. Your submission to godly authority shows the depth of your spirituality.
19.It provides a wholesome spiritual environment for our kids and grandkids to build godly relationships with other young people who love Christ. It stops them looking in the wrong places for friendships. When they get to an age where they are looking for a Christian spouse there is a suitable place where they can find a righteous partner.
20.The gathering together of believers and the combining of their financial and material resources and their natural abilities allows the church to achieve more practically for the kingdom of God.
21.The uniting of a church’s finances allows a local church to employ a man of God to give himself full-time to the ministry.
22.You have a credible accountable organised leadership (Pastor, Elder, and Deacons) set up to minister to all the different needs that confront Christians on their Christian journey.


Christians are saved to be part of a healthy collective body. Christians are meant to build up fruitful relationship with other believers and have a heart for reaching out to the lost.
Now, what about that final Sabbath? It is just as important to God, as fellowship with others of like mind.
 
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DavidPT

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1 Corinthians 15:22-28 outlines the climactic reality of Christ's coming and the fact it is "the end." You have nothing to query that.




1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Verses 24-26 tell us when the end comes, and it's not necessarily the same day He returns. A number of things have to happen first. Such as--

He must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Let's now compare that with the following.


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Deny it all you want since that's the only way you can make Amil supposedly work, yet these verses above are still meaning post the 2nd coming whether you like it or not. Does it look like via these verses that all enemies have been put under His feet at this point, and that the last enemy has already been destroyed as of verses 16-19?


shall even go up from year to year---in whatever sense this should be taken, what can't be denied is that it requires years to fulfill this, thus can't be fulfilled in a single 24 hour day or less, since that makes nonsense out of---go up from year to year. What does verse 16 say? Does it not say this? And it shall come to pass. What does that mean to you? The opposite of what it says? Or what it says?

Even if verse 2 were meaning what happened in 70 AD, though it clearly doesn't, but let's assume it did, verses 16-19 would still be meaning after the fulfillment of both verse 5 and 12. Neither of those verses have been fulfilled yet. And no, the plague mentioned in verse 12 is not the same plague mentioned in verse 18, which then tells us two entirely different time periods are in view here.

To sum things up, in light of Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, to name a few, there is obviously a gap after He returns before 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 are fulfilled.
 
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Timtofly

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How does Satan's banishment from heaven 2000 years ago through the life, death and resurrection of Christ equate to sinless perfection? That doesn't make sense. Satan has no charges on us because the blood of Jesus has paid for our FULL pardon.
That does not mean Satan stopped pointing out all our failures.
 
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Timtofly

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You are definitely running out of arguments if you have to hurl nasty slurs at Amils.

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14

14 I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases.

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

You might respond: I do not believe that I have power or authority today to cast out devils or to see the sick healed. Well, according to your faith! If you don’t believe it, then you can be 100% sure that there is no way you will operate it.

1 John 5:18: he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.
You claim Satan is bound.

So how can Satan flee, when he is bound in sheol?
 
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DavidPT

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You claim Satan is bound.

So how can Satan flee, when he is bound in sheol?


Good one.

Another good one is this.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Per Amil theology this is meaning while satan himself is in prison at the time, IOW while he is bound a thousand years in the pit.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


As can be seen in this verse, John describes satan's binding as a prison. Which then means, assuming Amil, Revelation 2:10 is to be understood like such.

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil, though he himself is also in a prison at the time, shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 
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Jamdoc

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Premils are always talking about the power, ability and influence of Satan. They want to talk about how strong he is and what he is accomplishing. They try their best to give him access to heaven, even though he has been cast out of it forever. In doing so, they dethrone Christ from His sovereign role as king and ruler of this globe.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning, they divest Christ of His rightful power.

Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king?

There are two aspects to the kingship of Christ. The first is the whole sphere of Christ’s providential rule over all creation. Revelation 1:5 reveals that Christ is the Sovereign archon or “Prince (or ruler) of the kings of the earth.” Christ currently rules over His enemies. The second aspect is the whole realm of Christ’s spiritual reign over all His new creation – the blood-bought Church. Revelation 15:3 tells us that He is the “King of saints.” It is only this second domain that is incorporated within the spiritual confines of the kingdom of God.

Paul and Silas had such an effect Jew and Greek in Thessalonica preaching , On the missionary journey of they saw many people come to faith in Christ, both The unbelieving Jews, being very angry, attempted to arrest the Apostles but not finding them, brought Jason and certain of the converts before the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus (Acts 17:6-7).

Understanding the difference between these two realms is essential to comprehending the true nature of the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

Psalm 24:7-8 says, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.”

The term ‘archon’ or ‘ruler’ is found again in Acts 5:30-31 where Peter is seen addressing the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders. There he declares, The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a archon (or) Prince (or ruler) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

There is His divine sovereign kingship over all creation as God, but there is also His Messianic kingship over His people – His elect, both Jew and Gentile, old covenant and new covenant. These do not conflict, but correlate beautifully. He reigns as God and man through this dualistic kingship. It involves His humanity and deity.

Any authority belonging to, or exercised by, the Church must ultimately emanate from the One who bestows it – Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:2 points your opinion to be in error.
It's not about giving Satan any praise
it's about acknowledging the truth of scripture.
 
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Jamdoc

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The whole restoration of sin offerings is a farce and an offence to God. You previously presented them as acceptable and honorable - saying they are memorial sacrifices. You have now done a complete U-turn. I think you realize this whole arrangement is abolished forever in God's economy.

No I didn't, I simply said that the sacrifices would happen, not that they'd be something God had any honor in.

I look at the planned sacrifices of modern orthodox Jews as blasphemy, but I acknowledge that they will do them, because prophecy in scripture says they will.

Look, not all things that happen in prophecy are holy, there's a lot of blasphemy, a lot of sin, and a lot of evil that are prophecized to happen.
You want to pretend they won't happen because they are sin, because they are blasphemy. You talk about how we are the temple of the holy spirit and there's no need for a third physical temple.
I agree
but what we don't agree on is whether orthodox jews will build a third temple anyway or not.
They don't accept Jesus.
They think they need a temple and these animal sacrifices
They don't, what they need is Jesus
but I believe they will do them in their blindness anyway, you apparently don't believe that they will make a temple.
 
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Marilyn C

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James said it happened when Jesus came. You and the Pharisees missed it.

Are you part of God's kingdom plan now? Then you are not part of the Pharisees plan which will never come about. God blinded them so they could not understand the bible. Why do you prefer their kingdom ideas over Jesus' kingdom teaching?

James quoted Amos who prophesied that the tabernacle of David that was damaged would be repaired and also the Gentiles raised up. That started when Jesus came and is still ongoing.
 
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Marilyn C

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Your claim is often made by those attempting to make modern Dispensational Theology work.
That claim stands in direct conflict with Peter's words concerning what happened at the house of Cornelius.

Peter had to be shown to go to the Gentiles. He did not want to at first. He knew NOTHING of the Body of Christ.

`Not so Lord for I have never eaten anything common or unclean.` (Acts 10: 14)

Then Peter gets a revelation -

`You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.` (Acts 10: 28)
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Jesus Christ "IS" Israel, that we grafted into it...in Him. Not national Israel. Once the building of the church is finished, there will not be any more salvation after this. Therefore, there won't be national salvation for national Israel in the Middle East in the future as premillennialists believe. Sorry.

Yes;
Isaiah 49
King James Version

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
 
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Marilyn C

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The new covenant congregation is not something entirely unique and new in God’s plan and purposes, totally separated from His old covenant people, but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. The New Testament assembly is the ongoing continuation of faithful old covenant Israel. Whilst the New Testament gathering has taken on a different form under the new covenant, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.


In light of your comment there in bold, can you please tell me what you believe of Heb. 12: 22 & 24. I`m referring to `the Church of the first-born and the spirits of just men made perfect.

` for you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Pretribbers need to think and search out the Word before they repeat what they have been taught. The Gospel embracing the Gentiles was a revelation made before there was even an Israel, the 12 tribes or before there was a Jew. This was a revelation given to Abraham in the book of Genesis.

It has always been God's plan that His glory would be seen throughout the whole earth. Time after time in the Old Testament the ancient seers foresaw it, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God spoke about the nations it was always in regard to salvation and global influence not mere real estate in the Middle East. The Old Testament prophets prophesied for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth.

Abraham

Genesis 12:1-3: “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

God in His Sovereignty had specially chosen Abraham to be the spiritual father of the faith. Through his wife Sarah he would receive a seed that would be blessed of all nations.

Gen 13:16 declares: “I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.”

Again in Genesis 17:5-6, God says, “a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

Genesis 18:18 says, “And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?”

Genesis 22:17-18: “in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

The spiritual blessing of Abraham is only spiritually realized in a spiritual seed. That spiritual seed pertains to God’s redeemed – all those since Abraham that have experienced God’s grace through saving faith. Whilst the, elect were largely contained within the natural seed of Abraham in the Old Testament that was branched out through and since Christ to embrace all nations. All those from throughout the nations who get saved become the children of Abraham and consequently partake in his covenant blessing. To apply the blessing of Abraham to the unregenerate is not only unscriptural but ludicrous.

These were spiritual promises to a spiritual people of all nations. Abraham and the Old Testament saints looked for the heavenly land, not some real estate in Palestine. Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Book says that "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country." This was talking about "the land of promise." The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another's, or not one's own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem.

The promise to Abraham and his seed was not merely a little strip of land in the Middle East, he and his Seed were promised the whole world, and all nations would be blessed by his Seed. Even when God made a covenant with Abraham it was not limited to one particular ethnic group or people but embraced all nations.

The references to the “nations” or “families of the earth” being “of” Abraham alludes to the global spread of the Gospel – post-Calvary. It is speaking of those of all nations who come to faith in Jesus Christ and enter His Church. It doesn’t in any way automatically indicate that every single person in every single nation be subjected to any specific blessing, but rather is used as a general term to describe a particular chosen people (the Church) from the many varying nations (all kindred’s and kinds) throughout the world.

His Wife

Genesis 17:15-21 records, “And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her … but my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”

Isaac

In Genesis 17:18-19 we learn, “And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."

Whilst Abraham had eight sons by three different women, God revealed that it would be Sarah's son Isaac that the physical and spiritual covenant would be continued. In the physical covenant to Isaac, the land was promised to Isaac and his seed. In the spiritual covenant, the Gentiles would one day be blessed.

The everlasting covenant is expressly realized in Isaac. He is the promised child. The elder natural son Ishmael was not counted as the inheritance. The inheritance goes to Isaac through Abraham. Undoubtedly Ishmael gets his own blessing, but the everlasting covenant is in Isaac.

Contrary to what most Dispies imagine, the true seed of Abraham – those that enjoy the favour and blessing of God are all those (irrespective of nationality) that have entered into salvation through faith in Christ. That was revealed to Abraham right back in the book of Genesis. The true seed of Abraham was always international in make-up. Whilst it was kept to a singular nation – natural Israel – in the old economy, when Christ (the Messiah came) it was widened out to include all the nations of the world. This was the fulfilment of God’s promise to Abraham many thousands of years ago.

After Abraham’s death, the LORD appeared unto his son Isaac, in Genesis 26:2-5, and confirmed the great hope of the Promised Land: “And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

Jacob

Isaac had two sons and God chose to confirm the covenant with Jacob only (Genesis 28:13‑15). In the confirmation of the covenant to Jacob, one specific provision was made: The Land is promised to both Jacob and Jacob's seed (28:13, 15). After that, it was confirmed through all of Jacob's twelve sons who fathered the twelve Tribes of Israel (Gen. 49).

Genesis 27:29 declares, “Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.”

This blessing was given to the one carrying the birthright. It was a spiritual blessing and was not made with Esau. Therefore, it relates to a spiritual seed not a natural seed.

Genesis 28:14 says, “And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”

Genesis 35:10-11: “And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.”

Yes, you are laying this out very clearly for any who want to look at it.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and a
nswereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


This is what these men are offering to you, to consider.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I just don't see how you guys can think that Jesus ONLY has a spiritual kingdom.
He has a spiritual kingdom now, He will get an earthly kingdom after the 7th trumpet, and He will have an eternal kingdom in a new heavens and new earth after final judgement. Why is the assumption that if you believe in an earthly kingdom that you don't believe in the spiritual kingdom? Why does Jesus only get 1 kingdom or the other? He gets them all in scripture.

Jesus rules from Heaven, in the midst of His enemies
He speaks from Heaven;
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
 
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sovereigngrace

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In light of your comment there in bold, can you please tell me what you believe of Heb. 12: 22 & 24. I`m referring to `the Church of the first-born and the spirits of just men made perfect.

` for you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

The word interpreted "Church" in our English language is actually the Greek word ekklesia. It repeatedly and overwhelmingly refers to the assembly or congregation of God's people, although it can relate to a public congregation (Acts 19:29-41) or a congregation of the wicked (Psalms 26:5. It relates to the people of God as much in the OT as it does to us in the NT. That’s why Stephen could declare, in reference to the Old Testament saints, in Acts 7:36-38, “he (Moses) had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.”

Stephen locates the Old Testament saints in Acts 7:36-38 in the Church, even though he is describing OT Israel. There can be no doubt Israel is described as "the church in the wilderness." Nothing could be clearer. I feel that to deny that is denying the clear emphasis of the reading.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Peter had to be shown to go to the Gentiles. He did not want to at first. He knew NOTHING of the Body of Christ.

`Not so Lord for I have never eaten anything common or unclean.` (Acts 10: 14)

Then Peter gets a revelation -

`You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.` (Acts 10: 28)

And what does this prove?
 
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Revelation 13:2 points your opinion to be in error.
It's not about giving Satan any praise
it's about acknowledging the truth of scripture.

You avoid text after text that refutes your teaching.

Satan and the beast have power, but God has all-power. Jesus holds all power. He is sovereign. Jesus rules over His enemies today until they bare finally destroyed at His climactic return.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan and his emissaries have not been rendered immobile or inoperative but are limited in their power, control and influence. Satan is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled. Get close to him and he will hurt. Many have opened themselves up to Satan and got hurt. The Church defeats Satan by invading his territory with the light of the Gospel and exercising our delegated power in subjugating devils through the power of the Holy Ghost and by the exercise of faith.
 
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