What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

prodromos

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There's a sort of logical problem that you're building there.

If Our Lady did something wrong by asking for a miracle then, by your own logic, Our Lord must've necessarily done something even more wrong by complying with her request.

If Our Lady did wrong in the wedding celebration, so did He. If He did nothing wrong at the wedding celebration, she didn't either. Pick one.
It would also mean that Jesus was encouraging His mother to sin, by His not simply honouring her request, but blessing it abundantly.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.
Yes, your passage is a good one, however some here believe Mary was not really so very human so one must take another step and cite the Romans passage Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— (NIV2011)
So everyone born after Adam sinned...to say Mary did not sin is to say she was not human.
 
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prodromos

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some here believe Mary was not really so very human
Complete nonsense. If Mary wasn't completely human then neither was her Son, so it wasn't our flesh that died on the cross and rose to life but some other kind, thus leaving us dead in our sins.
So everyone born after Adam sinned...to say Mary did not sin is to say she was not human
Enoch walked with God and was taken up. Was he not human?
 
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prodromos

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Yes, Enoch was human and he too sinned...your point?
I understand, "Enoch walked with God" to mean that he was righteous and blameless, otherwise why would such a statement be made? Enoch did not suffer death, which is the wages of sin, so there is a strong implication that Enoch did not sin.
As to your first comment, I totally agree...was my point...though implied.
Then you mischaracterise the beliefs of some Christians.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I understand, "Enoch walked with God" to mean that he was righteous and blameless, otherwise why would such a statement be made? Enoch did not suffer death, which is the wages of sin, so there is a strong implication that Enoch did not sin.

Then you mischaracterise the beliefs of some Christians.
Genesis 5:22:
22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years.

Hebrews 11:5:
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6:
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

As you see these passages speak of the necessity of faith. And, our faith credits us with righteousness...Romans 4

Too much to be said against your argument that Enoch did not sin. Elijah did not taste death. Scripture (God) tells us ALL have sinned and tells us this in many ways.

No I do not mischaracterize the beliefs of some people; I know this to be true and you may google it.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Yes, your passage is a good one, however some here believe Mary was not really so very human ...
So everyone born after Adam sinned...to say Mary did not sin is to say she was not human.
Who here ever said THAT? Yes, there are some here, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Traditional Christians, who think that to be sinless is to be God or a god. Then Adam was a god, by that odd logic, at least until he sinned. Then Eve was a god, at least until she sinned. Absurd.

Those of us who are Catholic, or Orthodox, or are otherwise Traditional Christians know that Mary was human, as human as Adam and as human as Eve. We know she was not divine, just as Adam was not divine, just as Eve was not divine.

Figure out here who thinks Mary was 'not really so very human'. Get back to me when you have it figured out,
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Who here ever said THAT? Yes, there are some here, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Traditional Christians, who think that to be sinless is to be God or a god. Then Adam was a god, by that odd logic, at least until he sinned. Then Eve was a god, at least until she sinned. Absurd.

Those of us who are Catholic, or Orthodox, or are otherwise Traditional Christians know that Mary was human, as human as Adam and as human as Eve. We know she was not divine, just as Adam was not divine, just as Eve was not divine.

Figure out here who thinks Mary was 'not really so very human'. Get back to me when you have it figured out,
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Who here ever said THAT? Yes, there are some here, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Traditional Christians, who think that to be sinless is to be God or a god. Then Adam was a god, by that odd logic, at least until he sinned. Then Eve was a god, at least until she sinned. Absurd.

Those of us who are Catholic, or Orthodox, or are otherwise Traditional Christians know that Mary was human, as human as Adam and as human as Eve. We know she was not divine, just as Adam was not divine, just as Eve was not divine.

Figure out here who thinks Mary was 'not really so very human'. Get back to me when you have it figured out,
I stand by what I've posted.
One of the churches you mentioned believes that Mary was immaculately conceived and that is so wrong! That is to say, "not quite human" . In fact, to be sinless is to be "not quite human" just as I stated.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I stand by what I've posted.
One of the churches you mentioned believes that Mary was immaculately conceived and that is so wrong! That is to say, "not quite human" . In fact, to be sinless is to be "not quite human" just as I stated.
You stand by what you said. OK. So Adam was created 'not quite human' and Eve was created 'not quite human'. Glad I understand you. They were not human until they sinned. And by your exact logic then Jesus Christ was 'not quite human' either. Catholics and the Orthodox and Traditional Christians would say that Jesus Christ was 'fully human' and yet so much more. We Catholics say Mary was fully human too, but nothing more. Fully human but sinless. Like Adam started out, and like Eve started out. And you think we think she is 'not quite human'. Stand on it if you want to.
 
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Marumorose

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Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.
Mary was raised in the temple of God and the angles looked after her, making sure that she does not commit sins. (Read the Book: The gospel of birth of Mary):hug:
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Mary was raised in the temple of God and the angles looked after her, making sure that she does not commit sins. (Read the Book: The gospel of birth of Mary):hug:
No thanks, I read the Bible only for my doctrine...all else is or well could be just doctrines of man. One should guard their heart against false testimony.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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All believers in OT times and before were born-again.

Totally FALSE.

NOBODY was Born Again, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit until it became possible AFTER the Crucifixion - the reason being that the Temple sacrifice ONLY HID SIN, but never "Eliminated it". The Old Testament Faithful were held in a place Jesus referred to as "Abraham's Bosom" - UNTIL their redemption was made possible by Jesus' SIN OFFERING. THEN they became Clean, and could enter Heaven.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Probably beause of people like you, eastern orthodox, catholics and similar, who are trying to make Mary to be somebody supernatural.

That leads to reactions like "is there something in the Bible that disproves that?".

Eastern Orthodox doesn’t teach that Mary never sinned.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Are you suggesting Our Lady acted against God's will in some way by asking Our Lord to perform that miracle?

Mary never used the word miracle. She may only had in mind for Jesus to send people somewhere to buy more wine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Totally FALSE.

NOBODY was Born Again, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit until it became possible AFTER the Crucifixion - the reason being that the Temple sacrifice ONLY HID SIN, but never "Eliminated it". The Old Testament Faithful were held in a place Jesus referred to as "Abraham's Bosom" - UNTIL their redemption was made possible by Jesus' SIN OFFERING. THEN they became Clean, and could enter Heaven.

I think Luke 9 is an indication that Moses and Elijah were already cleansed before Jesus’ sacrifice. Since Jesus’ sacrifice transcends time those who died before His crucifixion could possibly be cleansed before it actually took place and since God is omniscient and omnipresent it’s possible that they were not stained by their sin in the presence of God before Christ’s sacrifice.


“And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:30-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Complete nonsense. If Mary wasn't completely human then neither was her Son, so it wasn't our flesh that died on the cross and rose to life but some other kind, thus leaving us dead in our sins.

Enoch walked with God and was taken up. Was he not human?

Sirach 44:14
The Lord was pleased with Enoch's life and quickly took him out of this wicked world. People were aware of his departure but didn't understand. They never seemed to learn the lesson

Sirach 44:16
Enoch
Enoch pleased the Lord and was taken up into heaven. He became an inspiration for repentance for all time to come.

Sirach 49:14
The Patriarchs
No one else like Enoch has ever walked the face of the earth, for he was taken up from the earth.

Hebrews 11:5
It was faith that kept Enoch from dying. Instead, he was taken up to God, and nobody could find him, because God had taken him up. The scripture says that before Enoch was taken up, he had pleased God.

Who declared Enoch sinless?

1 Maccabees 2:58
Elijah, because of his great devotion to the Law, was taken up into heaven.

James 5:17
Elijah was the same kind of person as we are. He prayed earnestly that there would be no rain, and no rain fell on the land for three and a half years

Who declared Elijah sinless?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Mary was raised in the temple of God and the angles looked after her, making sure that she does not commit sins. (Read the Book: The gospel of birth of Mary):hug:

THE GOSPEL OF THE BIRTH OF MARY
CHAPTER 1
1. The parentage of Mary. 7. Joachim her father, and Anna her mother, go to Jerusalem to the feast of dedication. 9. Issachar the high priest reproaches Joachim for being childless.

1. The blessed and ever glorious Virgin Mary, descended from the royal race and family of David, was born in the city of Nazareth and educated at Jerusalem in the temple of the Lord.

From the earliest Church times this Gospel (or one bearing this name) was attributed to St. Matthew and received as authentic by some but not all of the ancient Christian communities. A few clearly corrupted copies were in circulation, for the sect of the Collyridians imagined that Mary herself was born of a virgin, and they established the worship and offering of manchet bread and cracknels, or fine wafers, as sacrifices to her. (The relatively recent Roman Catholic dogma in 1952 of the Immaculate Conception affirms only that Mary was conceived without Original Sin by a special grace of God, not that she herself was born of a virgin. The Eastern Orthodox Church never believed in this doctrine as stated, but only that Mary lived without actual sin. However, the whole Church has always believed emphatically in the Virgin Birth of Christ.)

This translation is made from a copy in the works of Jerome, a Church Father in the fourth century. His contemporary, Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, also mentions a gospel under this title.

From a corrupted copy, a native of Britain named Faustus who became Bishop of Riez in Provence, endeavored to prove that Christ was not the Son of God until after his baptism, and that he was not of the house of David and the tribe of Judah, because, according to the version of this gospel he cited, the Virgin herself was not of this tribe, but of the tribe of Levi; her father being priest of the name of Joachim.

Jerome's copy is considered the most accurate; thus it begins with the synopsis, "The blessed and ever glorious Virgin Mary, descended from the royal race and family of David, was born in the city of Nazareth and educated at Jerusalem in the temple of the Lord."

2. Her father's name was Joachim, and her mother's name was Anna. The family of her father was of Galilee and the city of Nazareth. The family of her mother was of Bethlehem.

Because Jesus is the Son of God (God the Son), the Church considers it theologically proper to call Mary "the Mother of God." The Eastern Orthodox Church venerates her as "the Theotokos, the Birth-Giver of God." In the same vein, its Liturgy of Preparation commemorates "the holy and righteous Ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna."

3. Their lives were plain and right in the sight of the Lord, pious and faultless before men. For they divided all their substance into three parts:

This does not necessarily mean three equal parts.

4. One of which they devoted to the temple and officers of the temple; another they distributed among strangers and persons in poor circumstances; and the third they reserved for themselves and the uses of their own family.
5. In this manner they lived for about twenty years chastely, in the favor of God and the esteem of men, without any children.

"...they lived for about twenty years chastely." That is, devoutly and in marital fidelity. If it meant without sexual relations, their vow "that if God should favor them with any offspring" (verse 6) would be an unreasonable expectation.

6. But they vowed that if God should favor them with any offspring, they would devote it to the service of the Lord; on which account they went at every feast in the year to the temple of the Lord.
7. [New paragraph in the oldest extant manuscripts] And it came to pass that when the feast of the dedication drew near, Joachim, with others of his tribe, went up to Jerusalem, and at that time Issachar was high priest;

The Old Testament festivals of the Jewish calendar are: the Feast of Passover, held on the fourteenth of the first month, Abib (April) and commemorates the Exodus from Egypt; it is mentioned in Leviticus 23:6, Numbers 9:5, Joshua 5:10, 2 Kings 23:22, 2 Chronicles 35:1, Matthew 26:17, Luke 2:41 and 22:15, and Hebrews 11:28.

The Feast of Pentecost, held at the end of the wheat harvest, the sixth of the third month, Sivan (June), commemorates the giving of the Law; it is mentioned in Exodus 23:16 and 34:22, Leviticus 23:16, Numbers 28:26, Deuteronomy 16:10, and Acts 2:1.

The Feast of Trumpets, held the first of the seventh month, Ethanim (October), is mentioned in Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1,, and Nehemiah 8:2.

The Feast of Tabernacles, held from the fifteenth to the twenty-second of the seventh month, Ethanim (October), when the people dwelt in booths to commemorate life in the wilderness and thanksgiving for the harvest; it is mentioned in Leviticus 23:34,39, Numbers 29:12, Deuteronomy 16:13, 2 Chronicles 8:13, Ezra 3:4, Nehemiah 8:14, Zechariah 14:16, and John 7:2.

The Feast of Purim, held the fourteenth and fifteenth of the twelfth month, Adar (March), commemorates the deliverance of the Jews from Haman; it is mentioned in Esther 9:17,22 and 26.

However, the Feast of Dedication mentioned here in the Gospel of the Birth of Mary, held the twenty-fifth of the ninth month, Chisien (December), commemorates an event found only in the Apocrypha -- the reconsecration of the Temple at Jerusalem after its pollution by the Syrians. It is mentioned in the Bible only in John 10:22.

8. Who, when he saw Joachim along with the rest of his neighbors, bringing his offering, despised both him and his offerings, and asked him,
9. Why he, who had no children, would presume to appear among those who had? Adding, that his offerings could never be acceptable to God, who had judged him unworthy to have children; for the Scripture said, Cursed is every one who shall not beget a male in Israel.
10. He further said that he ought first to be free from that curse by begetting some offspring and then come with his offerings into the presence of God.
11. But Joachim, being much confounded with the shame of such reproach, retired to the shepherds, who wee with the cattle in their pastures;
12. For he was not inclined to return home, for fear that his neighbors, who were present and heard all this from the high-priest, should publicly reproach him in the same manner.

It is difficult for us to imagine how infertility should cause such shame, but among the Jews it was considered a curse, as attested to by the following references: "But Sarai (Sarah, wife of Abraham) was barren; she had no child" (Genesis 11:30); "And Abram (Abraham) said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless... Behold, to me thou hast given no seed..." (Genesis 15:2,3); "And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manosah; and his wife was barren, and bare not" (Judges 13:2); "And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hanna had no children" (1 Samuel 1:2); "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death" (2 Samuel 6:23); "And he said, What then is to be done for her? And Gehazi answered, Verily she hath no child, and her husband is old" (2 Kings 4:14); "And they (Elizabeth and Zacharias, parents of John the Baptist) had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years" (Luke 1:7).

This Old Testament curse is the rationale behind the taunt made to Jesus in Luke 20:27-33: "Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she?"

CHAPTER 2
1. An angel appears to Joachim 9. and informs him that Anna shall conceive and bring forth a daughter, who shall be called Mary, 11. be brought up in the temple, 12. and while yet a virgin, in a way unparalleled, bring forth the Son of God: 13. gives him a sign, 14. and departs.

1. But when he had been there for some time, on a certain day when he was alone, the angel of the Lord stood by him in a prodigious light.
2. To whom, being troubled at the appearance, the angel who had appeared to him endeavored to compose him by saying:
3. Be not afraid, Joachim, nor troubled at the sight of me, for I am an angel of the Lord sent by him to you, that I might inform you that your prayers are heard and your alms have ascended to the sight of God.

The existence and nature of angels, their appearances, missions, and works will be discussed at appropriate places in this study, but this single verse summarizes numerous others throughout canonical and non-canonical Jewish and Christian documents. The person seeing the angel is usually frightened initially before being reassured.

The experience of Josachim has an exact parallel to Cornelius the centurion in Acts 10:3,4: "he saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming into him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." (Revelation 8:3 depicts an angel in heaven holding a golden censor with incense "that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.")

4. For he hath surely seen your shame and heard you unjustly reproached for not having children: for God is the avenger of sin and not of nature;

"God is the avenger of sin and not of nature: primarily applies here to miraculous births recorded in Scripture, but secondarily removes shame from those with natural afflictions.

5. And so when he shuts the womb of any person, he does it for this reason, that he may in a more wonderful manner again open it, and that which is born appear to be not the product of lust, but the gift of God.
6. For the first mother of your nation Sarah, was she not barren even till her eightieth year? Yet even in the end of her old age she brought forth Isaac, in whom the promise was made a blessing to all nations.

Sarah's story is found in Genesis 16:2ff., and Genesis 18:10.

7. Rachael also, so much in favor with God, and beloved so much by holy Jacob, continued barren for a long time, yet afterwards was the mother of Joseph, who was not only governor of Egypt, but delivered many nations from perishing with hunger.

Rachael's story is found in Genesis 30:1-23 and Genesis 41.

8. Who among the judges was more valiant than Samson, or more holy than Samuel? And yet both their mothers were barren.

Samson's birth is found in Judges 13:2, and Samuel's in 1 Samuel 6.

9. But if reason will not convince you of the truth of my words that there are frequent conceptions in advanced years, and that those who were barren have brought forth to their great surprise, therefore Anna your wife shall bring you a daughter, and you shall call her name Mary;
10. She shall, according to your vow, be devoted to the Lord from her infancy, and she will be filled with the Holy Spirit from her mother's womb.

Compare the statement to Joachim about Mary with that to Zachariah about his son John the Baptist: "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15).

11. She shall neither eat nor drink anything unclean, nor shall her conversation be outside among the common people, but in the temple of the Lord, so that she may not fall under any slander or suspicion of what is bad.
12. So in the process of her years, as she shall be in a miraculous manner born of one that was barren, so she shall, while yet a virgin, in a way unparalleled, bring forth the Son of the most High God, who shall be called Jesus, and according to the significance of his name, be the Savior of all nations.

Compare "who shall be called Jesus, and according to the significance of his name, be the Savior of all nations" with "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).

13. And this shall be a sign to you of the things which I declare, namely, when you come to the golden gate of Jerusalem, you will there meet your wife Anna, who being very much troubled that you returned no sooner, will then rejoice to see you.
14. When the angel had said this, he departed from him.
 
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