The Two Witnesses

fwGod said:

I don't mean to insult you and here follows the but.. you must not have been paying attention to what you posted. They can make fire come out of their mouth. So would you stand in their way and be burned quicker than a dried out autumn leaf?

They'd also be surrounded by and protected by angels as prophets of old have been. Able to do the miracles of the prophets of old.

They'd eat at their leisure, drink purified water by using cedar as was done in the old testament, and find natures toilet and water it without fear of being caught with their pants down.

How would they sleep? They'd put blood at their doorposts like what was done on Passover. Or if not, the angels would be encamped around them. They'd sleep like babies with no enemies to invade.

They are untouchable by the devil (1 Jhn.5:18), which would include the antichrist, and any people under his influence. They will enjoy the rare that is in the word of God for every believer. But who of us have called for them to work for us?

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Not insulted at all and what you said makes sense and indeed answers my question

throughfireytrial said:

Where do you read two MALE witnesses?
The traditional interpretation is that these two witnesses are Christ and the Church (the true believers known only by God). Jesus opens in Revelation 1:5 that He is the faithful witness. The Church as witnesses can be found recorded in various places...Acts 1:8 , Mark 13:9 as well as many others.
The picture language of Revelation is both figurative and riddle-like in nature all brought to light by the other Scriptures.

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Not sure that is the traditional view ( see above post). You are right there is nothing in passage that says they are male. A lot of the identities people have congregated around in past are male ones. But since I do not know cannot say what gender. It might be problematic to have a mixed gender team though and the harshness of the job works better with males IMO

fwGod said:

All old testament prophets were male, all new testament apostles were male. These two witnesses will be doing the same works and wonders of the old testament prophets. God does not change His patterns, therefore they will both be male.

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Not all, in OT we have Deborah in NT the daughters of Phillip for example

throughfireytrial said:

I continue to believe the traditional interpretation: The two witnesses are Christ and the body of true believers.
We all testify and must in our various forms with the gifts God has given us.

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One major problem with that view is that the witnesses die. How would that be possible with the glorified Christ who has already conquered death, why would sackcloth be fitting raiment for one who has already been cruicified for us

TribulationSigns said:

The symbolism in Revelation of sackcloth is to signify that the elect prophecy in mourning. And if anyone doesn't think that the true Church's testimony is with sackcloth, then they either don't know the true state of most of mankind, or they don't really know what the sackcloth represents.

Matthew 5:4

• "Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted."

We mourn both for our own sins, and the sins of others. And those who do not mourn, do not know their sins, or the sins of the world, nor what is the end of such sin. As lot's soul was vexed by sin, so all true believers souls are troubled by sin. We grieve for the world, andsackcloth is that material which in scripture illustrates that grieving or mourning. This can be seen when people of the old testament would have reason to mourn they would cover themselves in sackcloth and/or ashes to signify their vexation.

Genesis 37:34

• "And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days."

2nd Samuel 3:31

• "And David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes, and gird you with sackcloth, and mourn before Abner. And king David himself followed the bier."

Ester 4:1-3

• "When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry.
• ..there was a great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and Ashes."

The sackcloth in scripture signifies a cloak of mourning. And that's what the two witnesses prophecy in. They are mourning for the fact that so few will receive the Word of God that they testify of, that they might be Saved. They know the end of such actions, and they are saddened by the[18] in that we know what it means to those who reject it. True Believers love their neighbor as themselves, and therefore desire the same for them which they themselves have received of God. And it is a great sadness when man rejects the truth they bring, for they know it is then judgement unto them. Therefore do they witness in mourning, their souls vexed or saddened knowing the judgement of God.

2nd Corinthians 5:10-11

• "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
• Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

We know the terror of the Lord, and we know these are under judgement and thus do we prophecy in sadness mourning because of what we know.

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Jesus is not currently dressed in sack cloth and that was the point. He does not fit the part of a witness in sackcloth and cannot be cruicified twice. The witnesses await his return, they are not him. Given what you have already said you do not disagree with this view.

Revelation 1:13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

keras said:

I agree with this.
The two Witnesses will be two young Christian men. They will preach the coming Kingdom in Jerusalem and will be members of the 144,000, who go out to all the world with the Gospel, as per Isaiah 66:19 and Revelation 14:1-7 - the 'angel' in verses 6-7 is an allegory for them.
Those 2 will have special powers, Revelation 11:5-6, but the rest will also have authority and powers; Luke 10:19

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The roles of the two groups seem distinct to me. They do different things.

TribulationSigns said:

yes. Keep in mind that it was their testimony that has been “killed” means their testimony has been silenced.

Again, The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritualy' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

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Revelation 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city —which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt —where also their Lord was crucified.

Jesus was cruicified in Jerusalem. Your speculative symbolism is unwarranted

TribulationSigns said:

No, you do NOT have correct proper interpretation because you did not even compare Scripture with Scripture. Revelation 11 is not talking about a physical temple in the physical city. God is talking about His New Testament Congregation, the Holy City of the New Testament. Not Jerusalem in the Middle East.

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That might be true of the heavenly temple described at the end of the chapter but the reference is to a definite place on this world at the beginning of the chapter

Revelation 11:4-8 KJV

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[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

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The Olive trees are a symbol of life and belonging in Gods community. Those who believe are grafted in. The Lampstands are symbols of light in dark places and of the church. That two men can represent these spiritually significant realities is as unproblematic as that a community can.

These are men that can be hurt were it not for the Holy Spirit powers with which they are blessed and which enable them to carry out their ministry. When their testimony ends they are in fact killed. Does the church cease to exist at this point, no of course not but these are not the only believers in the world and it is not the whole church of billions of people lying in the street being mocked and gloated over by those who are fallen and who belong to this world alone. These powers mirror not the powers given to a church but rather definite people in the Old Testament like Moses and Elijah and Elisha for instance. Most people in the OT and the NT do not have and never will have these powers.

Finally we are talking about a place. Verse 8 distinguishes its figurative reference from its literal reference for us describing Jerusalem as corrupted and immoral as were Egypt and Sodom before the judgments that fell on them. The description of the city also defines how it will be approached with judgments hurled down on it and finally even after the witnesses have departed by a great earthquake sent direct by God.

Two olive trees and Two Candlesticks symbolize the Church which is the earthly representation of Christ. Remember The rule of sound hermeneutics, "The Bible is its own interpreter." You must not start with preconceived ideas about what it signifies, and search out the pertinent Scripture, it is not long before we see that the Olive Tree is indeed used by God to symbolize the Church, the New Testament Israel. Check yourself out with Hosea 14.

Hosea 14:5-7 KJV
[5] I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
[6] His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
[7] They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.

Christ (He) is Israel of God and the children of God who dwell under the shadow of THIS tree will have no scorching sun on them. When we are in Christ, we are like a green olve tree in the house of the Lord, Psalms 52:8. This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. Therefore, we are the Olive tree BECAUSE Christ "IS" this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. This is why the Gentile nations are grafted into THIS New Covenant Israrel, which is symbolized by the Olive Tree:

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And since I accept all these references and affirm them in fact my words do not detract from the fact that two men can witness to the church and indeed to the Jewish remnant also. Did not Jesus send out his own apostles 2 by 2 to witness to himself. Are you saying that two men by themselves could not do this? If so then you contradict Jesus's thoughts on this matter as he clearly thought teams of two were an adequate witness to himself.

“After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.” ~ Luke 10:1

Romans 11:17 KJV

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[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Clearly! God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted in. For example, we, join with Paul, and the Apostles into Chirst, the TRUE ISRAEL of God, Ephesians 2:11-19), which this covenant tree merely represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and its is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the believing Jews) according to the promised made to Israel.

Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

Zechariah 4:2-6 KJV
[2] And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[3] And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[4] So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[5] Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Lampstands and olive trees stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrating what we've been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth.

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Can we agree on all of this and yet say different things! Two witnesses can capture all this symbolism in a definite moment and location in time. A Jewish Christian for instance and a Gentile one are both grafted into the same Vine that is Christ (John 15). Yet we can still describe them as representative of that wonderful mystery by which both Jew and Gentile and therefore the whole world can be saved if only they would heed the words of Gods witnesses.

Zechariah 4:14 KJV

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[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

1 John 2:27 KJV
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So we have seen from God's Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

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And can do at the minimum in the testimony of just two men.

We, Christians, are the Two Witnesses as God defined it. Not two men. We spew fire out of our mouth. It is not what you think it is. Please check with Scripture yourself on what God actually means by this.

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You jump to the view that more than two witnesses are required to funnel these spiritual truthes and realities into the moment and the particular place in history to which the two witnesses are called. You do not demonstrate why this must be so. Jewish law only requires two persons for their testimony to be valid not hundreds, not thousands let alone the whole church. As Jesus says
John 8:17

It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.

Jeremiah 5:14 KJV

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[14] Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

The Gospel, Word of God, comes out of our mouth as fire, as a witness upon those who reject the Gospel.

Now the city is the church, the New Testament representative of God's Kingdom on earth. The Lord was crucified was just outside the great city Jerusalem. He is talking about where Two Witnesses will be killed, in the external church! This great city Jerusalem is the representation of the church which is this city of the great king. It is not the indivisible city itself, but the EXTERNAL COVENANT CHURCH is the earthly representation of the city of peace. This is WHERE true witnesses (two witnesses) of God dwelled and prophesied. What city is this? Check with Scripture yourself!

Matthew 5:35 KJV
[35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Galatians 4:26 KJV
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Revelation 21:10 KJV
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

All believers are residents of 'that great city' Jerusalem, and the external covenant church is the earthly representation of that Holy City. When Jesus spoke saying, 'ye are the light of the world, a city that is set on an hill cannot be hid,' He was talking of the Church equating it to a city. The Church reigning on earth is the representation of this great city of light which Christ spoke about.

Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV
[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure, or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritually' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in the bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

Selah.

Now, let see if you do your homework and come back with biblical rebuttal with SCRIPTURE, not personal opinions. Let hear this out from you else your interpretation of Revelation 11 is fatal flawed.

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There are two temples described in this very chapter. But the first is very much in this world and the boundaries marked out for it by John at the angels instruction demarcate the boundaries between the witness of the light in the general darkness that lies outside of it in the court of the gentiles. But the temple that ends chapter 11 is a different matter. The chapter progresses with the testimony of the witnesses from this world to Gods kingdom and what is shaken on the earth is also shaken in the very heavens. It progresses through the sacrifice of their lives and their slaughter by the beast from the bottomless pit to the heights of Gods throne itself. From death to life, from darkness to light, from defeat to victory and from pain to joy. At the last we see a glimpse of the Heavenly Holy of Holies itself in which is housed the ark of the Covenant. Secrets long hidden are revealed and the world and the heavens are shaken to their very core.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

TribulationSigns said:

Ahem... You do not get it. I can see why you lack spiritual understanding of Revelation 11. Tell me... where exactly did Christ die on the cross in 33AD? Within the city or outside the city? Back your answer WITH Scripture first. THen we can process with Revelation 11 which obviously did not talk about the cross in 33AD or the physical city today.

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It was the Jewish unbelievers that urged Christs crucifixion that celebrated his exclusion from the Jewish community outside the city gates. But Christ was not excluded from that community and indeed it withers and dies if it is not rooted in him (John 15). He warned them as they led him through the streets of Jerusalem not to remove him from their lives but they did not listen. But Jesus remains the heart of Jerusalem. You are playing with semantics here.

Luke 23:28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

Jesus was crucified by the people of the city in the area of the city and so we all know what is meant by the city where our Lord was crucified