Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

sovereigngrace said:

Christ is reigning over Satan as King of kings. Like a prisoner in a prison, Satan has movement but abides within carefully defined boundaries.

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Why did God let Satan go into the Garden of Eden?

sovereigngrace said:

No. Incorrect. I showed this above but you avoided. Satan has been banished from heaven forever. Sin has been fully paid for. He has no more authority to point the finger.

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This means that you are currently perfect without sin. Do you accept sinless perfection of all humanity, then?

Satan does not stop pointing the finger because sin has been paid for. Satan keeps pointing the finger, because even believers, still have sinful thoughts. Remember this is a spiritual battle, not a physical one. It is now in the mind, not the physical act of a daily sacrifice on a physical alter.

A small point on church. Church has become a safety net, and humans do not have their own spiritual consecrated life, except perhaps one day a week. Church is supposed to be daily fellowship with other believers. Every minute we should be in fellowship with other believers. Satan and worldly economy has always attempted to turn the hearts of believers onto the cares of this world, instead of fellowship with like minded people fighting the spiritual battles.

Christian Gedge said:

It just occurred to me. The experience of Job? Was his experience with Satan a 'type', so to speak, of Satan's little season?

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Job is the type for the church. This last 1990 years has been the test to see if the church would get it right like Job did. Seems to me the church played the harlot more than "getting it right".

sovereigngrace said:

To disobey the explicit instruction of God to fellowship is sin. It is selfish and prideful for someone to think they do not need the body of Christ, and the body of Christ does not need you.

Why should we attend the local church regular?

1. God’s Word commands it.
2. God’s people have always done it throughout history, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament and since Bible times.
3. Jesus (our ultimate example) did it.
4. The very word “church” (ecclesia) actually means gathering or assembly of God’s people.
5. It allows us to build up healthy spiritual relations with others of a kindred spirit.
6. It enables you to receive spiritual edification from the rest of the body. There is strength for each member when the whole body is functioning as one. One member possesses something the other doesn’t.
7. Church fellowship is another means of crushing our flesh. Being under the Gospel and being around godly people keeps us on fire and on the straight and narrow.
8. God’s people meeting together means more talent being employed to reach more people. An active local church affords opportunities for God’s people to serve God. They can employ their gifting for the Lord. It provides an opportunity for you to exercise your gifts, callings and abilities among God’s people and among the lost.
9. How else are you able to fulfil the many crucial spiritual demands to the body to “receive ye one another” (Romans 15:7), “consider one another” Hebrews 10:24), “comfort one another” (1 Thessalonians 4:18), “edify one another” (1 Thessalonians 5:11), “admonish one another” (Romans 15:14), “exhort one another” (Hebrews 3:13, 10:24), “do good … unto them who are of the household of faith” (Galatians 6:10) “care one for another” (1 Cor 12:25), ‘prefer one another’ (Romans 12:10), “serve one another” (Galatians 5:13), “forbearing one another in love” (Ephesians 4:3), “forgiving one another” (Ephesians 4:32), “pray one for another” (James 5:16)?
10.You receive (or should receive) the Word of God on a regular basis from a Pastor that God has called and separated specifically to minister. He in turn should be able to give his life, his time and his efforts to tending to the spiritual needs of the local body. Being able (as an occupation) to focus exclusively upon the ministry, he should be more capable of hearing from God and then in turn bringing the heart of God to the local body.
11.There is an intensification of spiritual power when believers meet together in faith, unity and truth. There is spiritual power in agreement.
12.It curtails the influence and power of Satan.
13.When things get tough there is a Christian support base able to uphold and support you through the trials of life. Church fellowship facilitates mutual encouragement.
14.Having a local church/congregation means there is a local place to congregate for local believers to praise, worship and thank Jesus and collectively pray.
15.When some searching or hurting sinner is seeking spiritual help and hope, they know there is a spiritual lighthouse in that community where they can receive assistance.
16.It offers converts to the faith a place of worship and a place to grow and be nurtured in the faith.
17.It stops us from backsliding. If you wander there are others to point you back to where you should be.
18.There is accountability. There is a covering. Being part of a body ministry provides protection from the false accuser. Your submission to godly authority shows the depth of your spirituality.
19.It provides a wholesome spiritual environment for our kids and grandkids to build godly relationships with other young people who love Christ. It stops them looking in the wrong places for friendships. When they get to an age where they are looking for a Christian spouse there is a suitable place where they can find a righteous partner.
20.The gathering together of believers and the combining of their financial and material resources and their natural abilities allows the church to achieve more practically for the kingdom of God.
21.The uniting of a church’s finances allows a local church to employ a man of God to give himself full-time to the ministry.
22.You have a credible accountable organised leadership (Pastor, Elder, and Deacons) set up to minister to all the different needs that confront Christians on their Christian journey.

Christians are saved to be part of a healthy collective body. Christians are meant to build up fruitful relationship with other believers and have a heart for reaching out to the lost.

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You really have no idea of how many believers there are that do not attend organized church and what help among the community they are doing, how they are getting the gospel out, what charities they engage in, give to etc. How they live their lives, how they raise their children.

Church if fine for those who want to attend. However there are many ways to serve the Lord outside of it and many do.

Your submission to godly authority shows the depth of your spirituality.

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JESUS is God .... JESUS is the only godly authority.

Who are you or any church to judge one's spiritual depth? Only Jesus knows the heart, including the secret things.

sovereigngrace said:

I don’t believe Satan can ever again access heaven. He must wreak havoc alone on earth.

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So you are saying the NT is wrong and only those under the Law were being accused by Satan? Was Jesus the advocate even before He was born to all the OT believers, for thousands of years, but no longer the advocate for the church?

sovereigngrace said:

Where does the NT teach the restoration of the abolished old covenant? Where does it describe the blood sacrifices anywhere in Scripture as memorial?

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yo will have to ask Jesus why He is still doing them in the Ezekiel temple. Redemption is clearly accomplished in Jesus sacrifice. The fact is that is what it says is coming and since you cannot in your understanding see how it is congruent with what you think you dismiss it. At the end of the millennium all those who's names are not written in the lamb's book of life do not make it. In Rev 5 we see all the redeemed are their by the blood of the lamb from Adam onward only the blood of Jesus atones. So too when it is all over all who's names are in the Lamb's book of life are redeemed by His blood. The literal sense is playing out right now before your eyes. There are simple tests to consider if modern Israel is part of the prophetic destiny. One is in the law the land is supposed to revert to a barren desolation when Israel is expelled and then bloom like the garden of Eden when they return. This has truly played out in history. It was completely desolate for many generations and look at Mark Twain's description of Israel and then look at it today. Also the 1967 war and research the miraculous victories where literally one guy in a tank held off the entire tank brigade and left a field of bullseye shots leaving the battleground filled with destroyed tanks by one guy. In Zech 14 looking further after the LORD has come and is king over all the earth note this little detail. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.[fn] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. The little detail given to Moses to drive the Canaanites out is now accomplished here. The day the kingdom comes is a day when Jerusalem is saved from enemies. It is clear in Zech 14, Dan 7 and rev that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our LORD and his Christ and he shall reign forever. We see the kingdom coming clearly in Dan 2, 7 Zech 14 and Rev. Look over all those passages and consider that the world looks as though Satan is not bound and if you can think of all the abortion, drugs, inappropriate content, murder, lies of evolution, witchcraft, violence which abound as being part of what is normal when Jesus is reigning you have a different view of having dominion and righteousness with justice begin established than I do.
The before and after picture of the world and Israel is the theme or next climax of the story. In the Millennium all will see Jesus and probably with the scars and all and He will have dominion and the saints reigning with them. So Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness but when he died he had to wait for the atonement. So those who live and die in the millennium will be seeing a world more like the angles saw when Satan led rebellion there. They are going to be tested we will not be handing them Bible tracts with John 3:16 on it. The purpose of the sacrifices will be revealed when Jesus reigns but for sure it is not a replacement for Jesus blood. These people will be tested and those who believe will be like Abraham accounted to them for righteousness.

Timtofly said:

This means that you are currently perfect without sin. Do you accept sinless perfection of all humanity, then?

Satan does not stop pointing the finger because sin has been paid for. Satan keeps pointing the finger, because even believers, still have sinful thoughts. Remember this is a spiritual battle, not a physical one. It is now in the mind, not the physical act of a daily sacrifice on a physical alter.

A small point on church. Church has become a safety net, and humans do not have their own spiritual consecrated life, except perhaps one day a week. Church is supposed to be daily fellowship with other believers. Every minute we should be in fellowship with other believers. Satan and worldly economy has always attempted to turn the hearts of believers onto the cares of this world, instead of fellowship with like minded people fighting the spiritual battles.

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How does Satan's banishment from heaven 2000 years ago through the life, death and resurrection of Christ equate to sinless perfection? That doesn't make sense. Satan has no charges on us because the blood of Jesus has paid for our FULL pardon.

sovereigngrace said:

One of my biggest issues with Premil is: it is always lauding the power and influence of Satan during this intra-Advent period.

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I think this is an excuse of Satan. I have spent 53 years in church, and never once heard any one give glory and credit to Satan. It is Paul in the NT, who warns us to be spiritually equipped for spiritual war. It has nothing to do with a coming Millennium. God declares a physical kingdom in both the OT to Adam, to Abraham, to the prophets, and in the NT to John in Revelation 20. Also to King David. Amil deny this and calls God a liar.

Timtofly said:

So you are saying the NT is wrong and only those under the Law were being accused by Satan? Was Jesus the advocate even before He was born to all the OT believers, for thousands of years, but no longer the advocate for the church?

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You really twist what people say don't you? I am of the opinion you do it deliberately because you are devoid of actual Scripture. The NT supports my contention. When such is presented you just ignore it and continue to repeat your error. This exposes how beret your position is to the reader.

I do not engage to change you, I do so for the reader who is open-minded to the truth.

The NT exposes your position, that is why you do not quote actual Scripture for the reader to analyze but list unrelated references.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection / ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Here, in correlation with Revelation 20, we see the end of Satan unchallenged deceiving of the Gentiles. John declares: "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ." How?

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Timtofly said:

I think this is an excuse of Satan. I have spent 53 years in church, and never once heard any one give glory and credit to Satan. It is Paul in the NT, who warns us to be spiritually equipped for spiritual war. It has nothing to do with a coming Millennium. God declares a physical kingdom in both the OT to Adam, to Abraham, to the prophets, and in the NT to John in Revelation 20. Also to King David. Amil deny this and calls God a liar.

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You are definitely running out of arguments if you have to hurl nasty slurs at Amils.

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14

14 I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases.

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

You might respond: I do not believe that I have power or authority today to cast out devils or to see the sick healed. Well, according to your faith! If you don’t believe it, then you can be 100% sure that there is no way you will operate it.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

Brian Mcnamee said:

yo will have to ask Jesus why He is still doing them in the Ezekiel temple. Redemption is clearly accomplished in Jesus sacrifice. The fact is that is what it says is coming and since you cannot in your understanding see how it is congruent with what you think you dismiss it. At the end of the millennium all those who's names are not written in the lamb's book of life do not make it. In Rev 5 we see all the redeemed are their by the blood of the lamb from Adam onward only the blood of Jesus atones. So too when it is all over all who's names are in the Lamb's book of life are redeemed by His blood. The literal sense is playing out right now before your eyes. There are simple tests to consider if modern Israel is part of the prophetic destiny. One is in the law the land is supposed to revert to a barren desolation when Israel is expelled and then bloom like the garden of Eden when they return. This has truly played out in history. It was completely desolate for many generations and look at Mark Twain's description of Israel and then look at it today. Also the 1967 war and research the miraculous victories where literally one guy in a tank held off the entire tank brigade and left a field of bullseye shots leaving the battleground filled with destroyed tanks by one guy. In Zech 14 looking further after the LORD has come and is king over all the earth note this little detail. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.[fn] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. The little detail given to Moses to drive the Canaanites out is now accomplished here. The day the kingdom comes is a day when Jerusalem is saved from enemies. It is clear in Zech 14, Dan 7 and rev that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our LORD and his Christ and he shall reign forever. We see the kingdom coming clearly in Dan 2, 7 Zech 14 and Rev. Look over all those passages and consider that the world looks as though Satan is not bound and if you can think of all the abortion, drugs, inappropriate content, murder, lies of evolution, witchcraft, violence which abound as being part of what is normal when Jesus is reigning you have a different view of having dominion and righteousness with justice begin established than I do.
The before and after picture of the world and Israel is the theme or next climax of the story. In the Millennium all will see Jesus and probably with the scars and all and He will have dominion and the saints reigning with them. So Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness but when he died he had to wait for the atonement. So those who live and die in the millennium will be seeing a world more like the angles saw when Satan led rebellion there. They are going to be tested we will not be handing them Bible tracts with John 3:16 on it. The purpose of the sacrifices will be revealed when Jesus reigns but for sure it is not a replacement for Jesus blood. These people will be tested and those who believe will be like Abraham accounted to them for righteousness.

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Ok, as i thought, you have no Scripture to support your private opinion that the old covenant will be resurrected and there will be sin offerings in your alleged future millennium as memorials.

sovereigngrace said:

Ok, as i thought, you have no Scripture to support your private opinion that the old covenant will be resurrected and there will be sin offerings in your alleged future millennium as memorials.

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in a debate you would be toasted as I totally answered that argument and you have not really read or possibly understood my post.

Marilyn C said:

I agree with much of what you say as per scriptures and the Lord being both human and divine. Now just a couple of points.

You say that Christ `ASSUMED` the Father`s throne. The word `assumed,` can mean to usurp, to take for granted, to be arrogant. And obviously the Lord did not assume the Father`s throne in that sense.
Then the word `assumed` can also mean `to take or begin to have power or responsibility. So I think you mean that.

So we know that the Lord is sitting at the Father`s right hand till His enemies are brought to His footstool for judgment.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Son), "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool." (Ps. 110: 1)

And what is the Lord doing at the Father`s right hand? He said " I will build my `called out ones.` (Matt. 16: 18) The details of that building is in Eph. 4: 11 - 16, Col. 2: 18 & 19.

So when the Lord`s enemies are brought to the Lord for judgment, what happens then? We know from God`s word that the Lord will begin to reign over those nations bringing judgments and putting down all rule and authority. When that is complete then the Son will subject Himself to the Father.

`...when He puts an end to all rule and authority .....when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 28)

Thus we see that the Lord is on the Father`s throne and the Father will always have that throne. Then we also see that the Lord has authority over ever rule and authority in every realm. So where does the Lord exercise His great authority that the Father has given Him?

On the Father`s throne? I don`t believe so.
I believe that the Father has set up His Son`s own throne in another area. So where does God`s word tell us the Son`s `OWN THRONE` will be?

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Christ`s OWN THRONE is revealed in Ps. 2. The Father says -

`... I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

And where is that?

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So we see that the Lord`s own throne will be in the highest realm of God`s great Kingdom where He will rule over every authority in every realm.

1. The Body of Christ with the Lord on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)
2. The OT saints in the New Jerusalem. (Heb. 11: 16)
3. Israel over the nations of the earth. (Rev. 21: 24, Isa. 66: 22)

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The old covenant is gone forever. Israel lost her theology forever and her place of special favor. There will be no return to the same. The nations today are the focus of God's favor, not one small lone Christ-rejecting nation.

Premils are faced with an insurmountable obstacle here: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s coming, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

Where is this so-called future thousand years in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28? Nowhere! With you fixation of this supposed period, you force it into text after text where it does not belong.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 outlines the climactic reality of Christ's coming and the fact it is "the end." You have nothing to query that.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Firstly, the usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The repeated usage of the word “for” in this reading demonstrates what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

Christ, the OT prophets and the NT writers repeatedly enlarge on a truth or recap a matter when relaying truth. This is a common way of teaching. That is all Paul is doing here. After explaining the finality of the second coming he then explains that he will reign until the last enemy is subdued.

Even though it might not seem it at times, God has got his providential hand on our lives. Moment by moment he watches over us. With a Father’s eye He sovereignly brings circumstances and situations into our lives at the right time in order to conform us unto His purposes. When we disobey, He takes the rod of correction to the seat of our understanding.

Second, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Premils delay the moment when “all things shall be subdued unto him” by 1,000 years, holding that “the bondage of corruption” with all its awful facets like sin death and decay is only eliminated 1,000 years after the coming of the Lord. They therefore postpone the final “put down” of all “all rule and all authority and power” till after the Gog / Magog battle in Revelation 20, where they insist Christ finally removes all wickedness from the earth. However, that is not what is being intimated in this passage. This reading actually locates all this at the Lord’s “coming.” It is there that “all things shall be subdued unto him” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power” (1 Corinthians 15:24).

Third, Scripture repeatedly presents a truth and then explains or enlarges upon that truth. After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness. This comes at the second coming of the Lord.

Paul is simply reinforcing the thought that he just stated about the climactic coming of Christ. It is the time “when he shall have put down (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Corinthians 15 verses 24 and 28 repeat the same all-consummating truth.

For Christ to be reigning over His enemies does not in any way suggest these foes are finally and effectively subjugated unto the Lord. No! No more than the rebellious subjects of an earthly monarch who are determined to overthrow the rule of that leader would considered not under the rule of that said king or queen. Whether they like it or not and whether they believe it or not they are subject to the ruler and his laws.

Ephesians 1:20-23 repeats the great truth that Jesus now reigns over His enemies since the cross. We learn that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Hebrews 2:6-11 says, "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

Brian Mcnamee said:

in a debate you would be toasted as I totally answered that argument and you have not really read or possibly understood my post.

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Stop avoiding. Give me one Scripture that teaches your supposed future "memorial" blood sacrifices, one?

Jamdoc said:

I just don't see how you guys can think that Jesus ONLY has a spiritual kingdom.
He has a spiritual kingdom now, He will get an earthly kingdom after the 7th trumpet, and He will have an eternal kingdom in a new heavens and new earth after final judgement. Why is the assumption that if you believe in an earthly kingdom that you don't believe in the spiritual kingdom? Why does Jesus only get 1 kingdom or the other? He gets them all in scripture.

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Premils fail to see that David’s earthly kingdom, reign and throne was only an imperfect type of Christ's heavenly kingdom, reign and throne. They fail to fully comprehend that we have moved away from the Old Testament shadow and type into the fullness of the New Testament reality.

The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His Divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven), the place where with the kingdom is centred and administrated. That is why Matthew rightly frequently described the kingdom of God as the Kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of true Church, the spiritual temple of God or the body of Christ, on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness is pre-eminent. Romans 14:17-18 says, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.”

When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined, like you, He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation. Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the Kingdom of God, saying, He was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Jesus answered “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21).

The Lord revealed, in His response, that the Kingdom of God – His Kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendour, impressive power and magnitude. It was, rather, a spiritual Kingdom, which could only be spiritually entered. The Kingdom of God is not a physical temporal kingdom that can be naturally observed or enjoyed but rather a spiritual kingdom, which is spiritually entered.

John Gill says of this passage, “it [the Kingdom of God] reigns, through righteousness, unto eternal life; and by it, Christ, as king of saints, dwells and reigns in his people. Now this is not to be understood of the Scribes and Pharisees, as if they had any such internal principle in them, who were as painted sepulchres, and had nothing but rottenness and corruption in them.”

Jesus, whilst speaking to Pilate shortly before His death, declared, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice” (John 18:36-37).

No longer would God’s Kingdom be restricted to the physical nation of Israel. From now on it would be open to a spiritual nation, comprised of people from all nations, kindred’s and tongues.

Jesus asked the Jews in Matthew 21:42-44, saying, “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

The physical dimension of the kingdom had now become a spiritual one in which Christ would be the sole King. 1 Corinthians 4:20 says, “the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.”

The Kingdom of God exists wherever the King – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction. His Kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s Kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

Many Christians today, like many Jews before them, are mistakenly looking forward to a physical reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth. Such people, who call themselves Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly Kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is NOT coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

Timtofly said:

Job is the type for the church. This last 1990 years has been the test to see if the church would get it right like Job did. Seems to me the church played the harlot more than "getting it right".

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Well, I'm part of the Church, and whenever I speak to God he doesn't growl me.

sovereigngrace said:

How does Satan's banishment from heaven 2000 years ago through the life, death and resurrection of Christ equate to sinless perfection? That doesn't make sense. Satan has no charges on us because the blood of Jesus has paid for our FULL pardon.

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"Transgression is finished" for those who believe! (Daniel 9:24) "No Condemnation" for those who believe! (Romans 8:1) What a God!

sovereigngrace said:

I am not a Preterist. I am an Idealist. Most Amils that I know are, maybe not on this forum. I agree with Partial Preterists on many key points, but not most of Revelation and Matthew 24.

One of my biggest issues with Premil is: it is always lauding the power and influence of Satan during this intra-Advent period. Amil is always exalting the power, authority, influence and dominion of Christ and the Church as it brings the good news of Christ to the nations. You present an overcoming devil, Scripture presents an overcoming Christ and an overcoming Church. You constantly ignore anything that is positive in Scripture regarding the power and glory of the kingdom of God.

Satan was bound after the victory of the cross - where every enemy was defeated. He has no power over the Church. The Church has power over him. Stop exalting and lauding Satan. The Bible exalts Christ and reveals His power and glory over the kingdom of darkness. It shows the power the Church has over Satan as the Gospel enlightens the nations today.

Premil strips Christ of His lofty position and argues He is not currently reigning as King. Premil presents a BIG devil and a small god, a powerful kingdom of darkness and a weak kingdom of God. Amil is the opposite. The Premil new earth is a dysfunctional age of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption.

Premil argues that Satan is going to lead the biggest religious turn-around in history 1,000 years after the glorious and climactic Coming of Christ on the 1st NHNE (their supposed future millennial kingdom) when the nations will wholesale abandon Christ at the first sight of Satan and partake in a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Amils obviously oppose this and hold that it is never going to happen. Thank about it: you have Christ reigning in His glorified majesty along with the glorified saints being challenged by countless mortal sinners, Satan and his minions. This is simply not going to happen!

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

In Matthew 16:16 we see authority (or keys) being delegated to the Church. After Simon Peter declared to Christ, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” He replied, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind (or chain or shackle) on earth shall be bound (or chained or shackled) in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (vv 17-19).

The true Church is a spiritual organism that is built brick by brick on Christ. It is spiritually connected to Christ and totally dependent upon Him for its strength. Because of this union the devil is totally incapable of prevailing against it. It is built upon a solid foundation, secure in standing.

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of this victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this intra-Advent period that the devil cannot in any way thwart. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is torn down.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.
You have to realize the Church is a conquering spiritual body overcoming Satan everywhere she faithful shines the truth. Premil always seems negative and defeatist - lauding the strength and power of Satan all the time. You will see this in discussions like this. Unfortunately, is it normally left to Amils to highlight the victorious nature of Christ's current reign over all His enemies and the delegated power that was given to the Church by Christ in this new covenant period.

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I think you're misinterpreting acknowledgement of what scripture says about Satan having power, position, and authority over this wicked world, as lauding.
We don't give Satan any more power than scripture attributes to him, and we don't love him and we want that power taken away by Jesus ASAP.
All we're doing is acknowledging what scripture says.
If scripture says that Satan gives the beast his power, his seat, and great authority, that means that Satan has those things, from God, for God's purposes, to give. We trust God's judgement on this and at the same time we hate that he has anything like that. I pray that Satan is without power and authority the way you see it, but that is just not scriptural.

What is also not scriptural, and what I see your position falling into a trap in, is this concept that the gospel conquers the entire world, that things will get continually better and better, that instead of having a great falling away, we'll have great revivals...
The problem is, scripture and prophecy don't indicate that. Scripture and prophecy indicate a world that is decaying into further and further wickedness, things get worse and worse and it is only when Jesus comes in the clouds that anything better happens. I can't pretend to understand the purposes of a millennial kingdom, it doesn't make sense that there would be a revolt after 1000 years of peace living under Christ's rule, it doesn't make sense why not just make the new earth and eternity now and just throw Satan into the lake of fire forever and ever at the 2nd coming of Christ. I would want that.
But scripture says otherwise... so I have to trust that God is wiser than me and there is a REASON for these things to happen.

sovereigngrace said:

Where does the NT teach the restoration of the abolished old covenant? Where does it describe the blood sacrifices anywhere in Scripture as memorial?

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Thing is, Isaiah shows that these sacrifices will happen but they will be displeasing to the Lord. Even using their old testament, modern orthodox Jews do not seem to grasp that animal sacrifices will not be pleasing to God, and any temple they build, will not be inhabited by His spirit.
They will still build it and sacrifice in it anyway in their blindness.
They've been weeping and touching and praying to a wall of a Roman fort, a Roman fort that destroyed their temple (remember Jesus said not one stone of it would be left standing on the other, it was completely destroyed, there isn't an intact wall left)... just utter blasphemy is what they do and what they will do. Their temple if they build it on the site of that roman fort, will also be blasphemy, their sacrifices will be blasphemy. But they still want to do it.

Note something... Matthew 23:39, as Jesus was leaving the temple.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

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Until they acknowledge Jesus, until they say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord".. He won't enter any temple they build.
Then He predicted the temple would be utterly destroyed.. but He gave a condition on which they would see Him enter a temple again.

eleos1954 said:

compromise? We are not suppose to compromise.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

• Revelation 17:1-2
  Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
  
• Revelation 17:4-6
  The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written:
  MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 18:4
Berean Study Bible
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her (false teaching systems), My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.

The only way to do that is diligently studying His Word for yourself.

Did Jesus compromise? Certainly not. We are to walk in His steps ... He is our example in everything.

Follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

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Is rapture timing an essential doctrine? No
Can we fellowship with people who love the Lord, believe in our ESSENTIAL doctrines like salvation, the trinity, the resurrection of Jesus, the divinity of Jesus? Yes.

I'll fellowship with pretrib, posttrib, amill, postmill, whatever those eschatology definitions.. even if we get heated on these forums, I know sovereigngrace and I both believe that salvation is by grace, a sovereign act of God to give us faith and that Jesus is the way the truth and the life.
Eschatology positions are not essential. We should all be prepared to change our eschatology positions in mid air. Cause we might be proven wrong suddenly on our way to meet Him in the clouds.
I believe certain eschatology positions to be potentially dangerous... preterism, historicism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism and pretrib rapture, can all lull people into not watching and waiting as our Lord said to do, and I'm worried that if we go into the Tribulations and you were expecting to escape from them utterly and you find yourself in a jail cell starving waiting to be executed for your testimony that you might lose faith and renounce Jesus. I worry about that more than anything. But if you can keep your faith, even if your rapture timing turns out to be wrong.. it'll be okay eventually Christ will receive you.

It'd be extremely hard to find a church that does not teach Pretrib rapture in these days.