Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

Marilyn C

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Notice the fulfilled Prophecy many still blindly look for.

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, And close up the breaches thereof; And I will raise up his ruins, And I will build it as in the days of old:” Amos 9:11 (KJV 1900)

Speaking of the present times; “And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:” Acts 15:13–16 (KJV 1900)

Yes the Gentiles were prophesied to be a part of God`s plan. Then we read further -

`I will plant them in their land and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them, says the Lord your God.` (Amos 9: 15)

And that has just come about in our time.

BTW you have not addressed the scripture that I posted.
 
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Marilyn C

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You are ignoring what happened with Peter at the house of Cornelius in order to make your doctrine work.


Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?



Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


I am NOT disputing that God has written in His word (OT) that the Gentiles will have a part in His plan. This is a good scripture -

`Rejoice O Gentiles, with His people; for He will avenge the blood of His servants and render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)

However we do NOT see that God has revealed that the Jews and the Gentiles come together and make the Body of Christ. Because that is a further part of God`s purposes that was hidden till revealed to the apostle Paul.

Peter, (& the other disciples) only knew of Jesus as Lord and Christ and that the promise of the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles. They DID NOT know of the Body of Christ and had great trouble understanding what it was all about. That is why Peter tried to get the Gentile believers to act like the Jews. For that is how Gentiles, (eg Ruth etc) came into the nation of Israel.
 
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Dave L

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Yes the Gentiles were prophesied to be a part of God`s plan. Then we read further -

`I will plant them in their land and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them, says the Lord your God.` (Amos 9: 15)

And that has just come about in our time.

BTW you have not addressed the scripture that I posted.
James said it happened when Jesus came. You and the Pharisees missed it.

Are you part of God's kingdom plan now? Then you are not part of the Pharisees plan which will never come about. God blinded them so they could not understand the bible. Why do you prefer their kingdom ideas over Jesus' kingdom teaching?
 
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BABerean2

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However we do NOT see that God has revealed that the Jews and the Gentiles come together and make the Body of Christ. Because that is a further part of God`s purposes that was hidden till revealed to the apostle Paul.

Your claim is often made by those attempting to make modern Dispensational Theology work.
That claim stands in direct conflict with Peter's words concerning what happened at the house of Cornelius.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George


.
 
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eleos1954

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Does going to church save you? No

I prefer to study on my own ... on topics the Lord brings to my mind and heart.

In a sense this forum is how I attend church. Get a lot of different viewpoints and I compare those with scripture.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

The "end game" for everyone whether they attend church or not is individual.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
 
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Jamdoc

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Does going to church save you? No

I prefer to study on my own ... on topics the Lord brings to my mind and heart.

In a sense this forum is how I attend church. Get a lot of different viewpoints and I compare those with scripture.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

The "end game" for everyone whether they attend church or not is individual.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

I hate to kinda be a hypocrite because I haven't been able to attend church in quite some time because of my physical disabilites preventing me from being able to get out to church, but I do really pray for healing so that I can go every day. I'd really like to go back, being alone as a Christian is hard, online community helps a little bit and can be somewhat edifying but it is better to go to church, be around other believers, have that community, and not be alone. I'd advise going to church if you can because it does edify your faith, it can teach you good doctrine and it is a place of worship. We can read and we can pray but honestly how much worship do we do on our own? I dislike singing and only do it out of obedience at church, there's no way for me to goad myself into singing hymns home by myself. So while these forums can be profitable to discuss, debate, and share scripture, what I at least lack, is devoted worship. I read psalms I don't sing them.

Is there a particular reason you don't go to church? Do you also lack the physical capability to? Lack the means of transportation? Have financial hardship and feel guilt about being unable to afford to chip in for missionaries and collection plates? Unable to find a good church doctrine wise? That last one can be difficult, I realize most churches teach pretrib, so I definitely have to compromise on that doctrine.
 
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BABerean2

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Does going to church save you? No

I prefer to study on my own ... on topics the Lord brings to my mind and heart.

In a sense this forum is how I attend church. Get a lot of different viewpoints and I compare those with scripture.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

The "end game" for everyone whether they attend church or not is individual.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


We are commanded to spread the Gospel. This is one of the most important aspects of our faith.

I thank God for those who were my friends that had the courage to share the Gospel with me.

One of the most memorable moments of my life was when a former student shared that she had come to faith after hearing a lesson I had taught to a group of students at my school, which met before the school day began.
She wanted me to know the part I had played in her conversion.

I was dying, and found the only doctor with the cure.
I now want to share this doctor with the whole world.
He is the only one who has overcome death.


You can share the Gospel with your friends, family, and co-workers, or through a church body.

They need you, and there will be times when you need them.

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No it doesn't it expressly throws a monkey wrench in the Amill position and forces you to throw out the chapter or pretend it means something else.
It forces you to make the statements made in it into exaggerations and hyperbole.

We've been over this. It says "satan will deceive the nations no more" and you qualify it as a "well, some people are preaching the gospel, it must mean that" while Islam rises up with 1.6 billion people following it, the largest deception that Satan has ever done.

You read a viewpoint INTO scripture. Rather than read scripture and anticipate things that will come that fit scripture as written.

I wasn't raised in a Christian household, I wasn't really a regular church goer, I didn't have other people's teachings forced onto me as you keep accusing. I don't read other christian books. I read the bible and came to my conclusions based on scripture itself. If it was because of doctrines from the outside being impressed into me? I'd be pretrib. Because that's the most common thing that gets thrown at me, pretrib. Preterism is very common too, in fact I was pitched preterism heavily as I was going into my own bible study. The whole Kaiser Nero theory.
I read the bible, and discarded that theory, because I refuse to jam a square peg into a round hole. Same thing with pre trib, I got thrown that heavily. I read the bible, I didn't see a pre trib rapture, I did see a pre wrath rapture, so that's my position.
100% based on scripture.
You see some sort of half baked fulfillment of prophecy happening in the past, I see the stage setting up for prophecy to be fulfilled in the future, how soon? I don't know until we see the abomination of desolation we really have no idea.
But I can guarantee you that the abomination of desolation wasn't Antiochus, 200 years before Jesus told His disciples to look for the abomination of desolation. Any "great theologian" throwing around that theory should just be laughed at. I can also guarantee it wasn't Nero, or Titus, because that was a regional confronation, not global, and the temple was destroyed, not cleansed 2300 evenings and mornings later, and Jesus didn't return then, and our world still has sin and death in it.

That means that it's future events, and that also means that Revelation 13:2 has Satan giving the beast power, position, and authority.
Things you claim he does not have to give.

I am not a Preterist. I am an Idealist. Most Amils that I know are, maybe not on this forum. I agree with Partial Preterists on many key points, but not most of Revelation and Matthew 24.

One of my biggest issues with Premil is: it is always lauding the power and influence of Satan during this intra-Advent period. Amil is always exalting the power, authority, influence and dominion of Christ and the Church as it brings the good news of Christ to the nations. You present an overcoming devil, Scripture presents an overcoming Christ and an overcoming Church. You constantly ignore anything that is positive in Scripture regarding the power and glory of the kingdom of God.

Satan was bound after the victory of the cross - where every enemy was defeated. He has no power over the Church. The Church has power over him. Stop exalting and lauding Satan. The Bible exalts Christ and reveals His power and glory over the kingdom of darkness. It shows the power the Church has over Satan as the Gospel enlightens the nations today.

Premil strips Christ of His lofty position and argues He is not currently reigning as King. Premil presents a BIG devil and a small god, a powerful kingdom of darkness and a weak kingdom of God. Amil is the opposite. The Premil new earth is a dysfunctional age of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption.

Premil argues that Satan is going to lead the biggest religious turn-around in history 1,000 years after the glorious and climactic Coming of Christ on the 1st NHNE (their supposed future millennial kingdom) when the nations will wholesale abandon Christ at the first sight of Satan and partake in a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Amils obviously oppose this and hold that it is never going to happen. Thank about it: you have Christ reigning in His glorified majesty along with the glorified saints being challenged by countless mortal sinners, Satan and his minions. This is simply not going to happen!

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

In Matthew 16:16 we see authority (or keys) being delegated to the Church. After Simon Peter declared to Christ, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” He replied, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind (or chain or shackle) on earth shall be bound (or chained or shackled) in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (vv 17-19).

The true Church is a spiritual organism that is built brick by brick on Christ. It is spiritually connected to Christ and totally dependent upon Him for its strength. Because of this union the devil is totally incapable of prevailing against it. It is built upon a solid foundation, secure in standing.

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of this victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this intra-Advent period that the devil cannot in any way thwart. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is torn down.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

1 John 5:18: he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.
You have to realize the Church is a conquering spiritual body overcoming Satan everywhere she faithful shines the truth. Premil always seems negative and defeatist - lauding the strength and power of Satan all the time. You will see this in discussions like this. Unfortunately, is it normally left to Amils to highlight the victorious nature of Christ's current reign over all His enemies and the delegated power that was given to the Church by Christ in this new covenant period.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Does going to church save you? No

I prefer to study on my own ... on topics the Lord brings to my mind and heart.

In a sense this forum is how I attend church. Get a lot of different viewpoints and I compare those with scripture.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

The "end game" for everyone whether they attend church or not is individual.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

This board is not church. It does not constitute the biblical gathering together of the saints. It is both disobedience and selfish for you not to attend church, unless it is physically impossible. Listen to what Hebrews 10:24-25 says:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


It is my experience in Ireland and here that people that argue they don’t need to go to church are selfish. Their Christian walk is all about what they want or think. They have little to give others, and have little care either.

They have no concept of serving the body.

The context of Hebrews 10:24-25 is fellowship and the necessity of it. We should not miss the Holy Spirit’s introductory remarks on the subject in v 24 is: “let us consider one another.” Being a Christian is not about us, it is about (1) God and (2) about others and (3) us. In fact ministry is about all about God and others. It is a selfless thing. It is a giving thing. It is dying to self and self-interest.

The phrase “let us consider” is taken from the singular word katanoeo (kat-an-o-eh'-o) meaning ‘to observe fully’ or ‘consider with the mind attentively fixed’. Therefore, as believers, we should be sensitive to “one another” and continually contemplate the needs of our brethren, so as to render mutual help and counsel.

We need the fellowship of others, but others need us. If you can go to church and you don’t, what you are showing is that you are selfish and that you have no interest in the needs of your brethren.

The text goes unto to say: “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is.”

The Greek word here for “manner” is ethos (eth'-os); meaning “habit.” In short, this is saying that some have got into the bad habit of not attending their local church. Don’t be like them.

What happens when believers pull back from fellowshipping with the rest of the body?

They lose out and the body loses out.

1 Cor 12:12, 15-18, 20-23

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ…

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him…


21 the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.


When the New Testament church was in its infancy one thing that marked it was the faithfulness of its members in attending the meeting place. This should equally mark the end-time church.

The Bible says that the on-fire early church continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers” (Acts 2:42).

This word “stedfastly” means ‘to be earnest towards’, ‘to attend assiduously to a particular exercise’, or ‘to adhere closely to (as a servitor)’.

Plainly, the early believers were earnestly committed to fellowshipping together regularly.

Acts 2:46 then goes on to tell us: “they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God.”

If you don’t continually pitch your tent at Bethel you will never be strong in the Lord. It is indeed the house of God.

When things are tough or you can’t make sense of what is going on around you visiting the house of God helps.

The man of God testified in Psalm 73:12-19

12 Behold … the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.


You get revelation and perspective in the house of God that you will not get out there in that sinful world.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am NOT disputing that God has written in His word (OT) that the Gentiles will have a part in His plan. This is a good scripture -

`Rejoice O Gentiles, with His people; for He will avenge the blood of His servants and render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)

However we do NOT see that God has revealed that the Jews and the Gentiles come together and make the Body of Christ. Because that is a further part of God`s purposes that was hidden till revealed to the apostle Paul.

Peter, (& the other disciples) only knew of Jesus as Lord and Christ and that the promise of the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles. They DID NOT know of the Body of Christ and had great trouble understanding what it was all about. That is why Peter tried to get the Gentile believers to act like the Jews. For that is how Gentiles, (eg Ruth etc) came into the nation of Israel.

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament ekklesia as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no origin prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is a “mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say, because the New Testament Church is expressly called “the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God” that it is a brand-new construction started in the upper room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss, or deliberately distort, is that Paul was actually teaching the complete opposite to what they assert. Ephesians 3:1-9 tells us: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

The debate is not over whether the ekklesia was some new innovation or whether it has replaced Israel or not (because it hasn’t) but rather, (1) is the new covenant congregation of God’s people spiritually connected to the old covenant congregation of God’s people and (2) do believing Gentiles after the cross enjoy an equal status with believing Jews?

The mystery regarding the congregation is not that it was unknown to the Old Testament prophets, but rather that believing Gentiles were integrated into the believing congregation on an equal footing (as fellow heirs) as existing Jewish believers. Dispensationalists fail to see that the ekklesia is not a New Testament novelty introduced at Pentecost but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning.

The new covenant congregation is not something entirely unique and new in God’s plan and purposes, totally separated from His old covenant people, but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. The New Testament assembly is the ongoing continuation of faithful old covenant Israel. Whilst the New Testament gathering has taken on a different form under the new covenant, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul identifies “the mystery” here in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” Here is the crux of his argument: he demonstrates that the notable metamorphosis that occurred as the old covenant ekklesia changed into the new covenant ekklesia resulted in the Gentiles assuming an equal footing to the Jews. There is no longer any favoritism. The mystery is the parity that occurred from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

Paul never said that the ekklesia wasn’t about before Pentecost, as Dispensationalists wrongly argue. In fact, he teaches the opposite. The Dispensational interpretation is the exact reverse to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body.

It was always God’s heart to expand His old covenant congregation (the ekklesia) out beyond the borders of national Israel, to reach the Gentile people. The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God’s great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” Dispensationalists make the existence of the ekklesia the “mystery” in order to support their theology, even though it has been around as long as there have been believers.

Thomas Croskery explains in his in-depth classic research from 1879: “Though the prophets foretold that the Gentiles were to be blessed in Abraham, it was not made known to them in what manner the blessing was to be realized. This was the special revelation to which the apostle alludes when he speaks of the dispensation committed to himself as the apostle to the Gentiles.”

He adds: “we, of this dispensation, were to be incorporated into the ‘one commonwealth’, from which we were alienated, into the ‘one body’, the ‘one household’, the ‘one building fitly framed together’. The mystery was the admission of Gentiles to share on equal terms with the Jews all the blessings purchased by Christ” (Plymouth-Brethrenism: A Refutation of Its Principles and Doctrines).

Ephesians 3:1-9 is just another example of the gradual spiritual unfolding of the progressive revelation of God. In this instance, it shows how New Testament Gentiles would possess an equal status to that of New Testament Jews under the new covenant arrangement. This was something that was largely veiled in the Old Testament.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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But Jesus taught Amillennialism. And all the things you say from the Old Testament are symbols of the spiritual realities of the Kingdom. They are not the kingdom. You are essentially saying Christianity returns to Judaism which is a serious sin.
You are quite mistaken on so many levels. The USA is a nation the USA had a Christian heritage and now is mostly apostate. Israel has many covenants with God going for them. The covenant with Abraham, that they will be a great nation and inherit the land of Canaan. They have the covenant with David that one of his heirs will sit upon the throne forever and Jesus is promised to sit on David's throne. They have the covenant with Moses which was the law and that was a conditional covenant. The church is covenant is Noah's to all men and then also Abraham that in his seed all the nations would be blessed and then the new covenant which most importantly is the one Jesus made with his death on the cross. We are grafted into the new covenant as it is a promise to the nations of Israel. So here is the fork in the road where you maintain God has cast off national Israel and all that is left is spiritual Israel. I say whoa the covenant in Jer 31 is still going to be received by national Israel and that is the result of the great tribulation or day of vengeance in Isaiah 61 or time of Jacobs trouble in Jer 30-31. The nations of Israel becomes grafted back in and they are no longer under the law but under the new covenant.
There may be elements of the traditions kept as memorials and all in the millennium but the born again experience is promised in Jer 31 and then again in Eze to those brought back in the later days. The prophecies are so specific in details there is no allegorizing them. My church is premil and open facing fines and in law suits with the state of California. Yesterday our church is more than doubled in size since the pandemic and 40 people made a new confession of faith yesterday. If this is the result of holding views with grave sin I think you better think over what you mean by that. My friend it is you who are on the wrong fork and you will see the 3rd temple being built an the one world government with 10 regional heads rise and still won't get it.
 
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Dave L

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You are quite mistaken on so many levels. The USA is a nation the USA had a Christian heritage and now is mostly apostate. Israel has many covenants with God going for them. The covenant with Abraham, that they will be a great nation and inherit the land of Canaan. They have the covenant with David that one of his heirs will sit upon the throne forever and Jesus is promised to sit on David's throne. They have the covenant with Moses which was the law and that was a conditional covenant. The church is covenant is Noah's to all men and then also Abraham that in his seed all the nations would be blessed and then the new covenant which most importantly is the one Jesus made with his death on the cross. We are grafted into the new covenant as it is a promise to the nations of Israel. So here is the fork in the road where you maintain God has cast off national Israel and all that is left is spiritual Israel. I say whoa the covenant in Jer 31 is still going to be received by national Israel and that is the result of the great tribulation or day of vengeance in Isaiah 61 or time of Jacobs trouble in Jer 30-31. The nations of Israel becomes grafted back in and they are no longer under the law but under the new covenant.
There may be elements of the traditions kept as memorials and all in the millennium but the born again experience is promised in Jer 31 and then again in Eze to those brought back in the later days. The prophecies are so specific in details there is no allegorizing them. My church is premil and open facing fines and in law suits with the state of California. Yesterday our church is more than doubled in size since the pandemic and 40 people made a new confession of faith yesterday. If this is the result of holding views with grave sin I think you better think over what you mean by that. My friend it is you who are on the wrong fork and you will see the 3rd temple being built an the one world government with 10 regional heads rise and still won't get it.
Did you know the Church is Israel and the physical Jews are not? they call themselves that but when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, that was the last generation of physical Israelites. All are now gentiles with Jewish customs. Study Israel's history beginning with Abraham and you might see this with a willing heart.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are quite mistaken on so many levels. The USA is a nation the USA had a Christian heritage and now is mostly apostate. Israel has many covenants with God going for them. The covenant with Abraham, that they will be a great nation and inherit the land of Canaan. They have the covenant with David that one of his heirs will sit upon the throne forever and Jesus is promised to sit on David's throne. They have the covenant with Moses which was the law and that was a conditional covenant. The church is covenant is Noah's to all men and then also Abraham that in his seed all the nations would be blessed and then the new covenant which most importantly is the one Jesus made with his death on the cross. We are grafted into the new covenant as it is a promise to the nations of Israel. So here is the fork in the road where you maintain God has cast off national Israel and all that is left is spiritual Israel. I say whoa the covenant in Jer 31 is still going to be received by national Israel and that is the result of the great tribulation or day of vengeance in Isaiah 61 or time of Jacobs trouble in Jer 30-31. The nations of Israel becomes grafted back in and they are no longer under the law but under the new covenant.
There may be elements of the traditions kept as memorials and all in the millennium but the born again experience is promised in Jer 31 and then again in Eze to those brought back in the later days. The prophecies are so specific in details there is no allegorizing them. My church is premil and open facing fines and in law suits with the state of California. Yesterday our church is more than doubled in size since the pandemic and 40 people made a new confession of faith yesterday. If this is the result of holding views with grave sin I think you better think over what you mean by that. My friend it is you who are on the wrong fork and you will see the 3rd temple being built an the one world government with 10 regional heads rise and still won't get it.

Where does the NT teach the restoration of the abolished old covenant? Where does it describe the blood sacrifices anywhere in Scripture as memorial?
 
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eleos1954

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I hate to kinda be a hypocrite because I haven't been able to attend church in quite some time because of my physical disabilites preventing me from being able to get out to church, but I do really pray for healing so that I can go every day. I'd really like to go back, being alone as a Christian is hard, online community helps a little bit and can be somewhat edifying but it is better to go to church, be around other believers, have that community, and not be alone. I'd advise going to church if you can because it does edify your faith, it can teach you good doctrine and it is a place of worship. We can read and we can pray but honestly how much worship do we do on our own? I dislike singing and only do it out of obedience at church, there's no way for me to goad myself into singing hymns home by myself. So while these forums can be profitable to discuss, debate, and share scripture, what I at least lack, is devoted worship. I read psalms I don't sing them.

Is there a particular reason you don't go to church? Do you also lack the physical capability to? Lack the means of transportation? Have financial hardship and feel guilt about being unable to afford to chip in for missionaries and collection plates? Unable to find a good church doctrine wise? That last one can be difficult, I realize most churches teach pretrib, so I definitely have to compromise on that doctrine.

compromise? We are not suppose to compromise.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

  • Revelation 17:1-2
    Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
  • Revelation 17:4-6
    The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written:
    MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
Revelation 18:4
Berean Study Bible
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her (false teaching systems), My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.

The only way to do that is diligently studying His Word for yourself.

Did Jesus compromise? Certainly not. We are to walk in His steps ... He is our example in everything.

Follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
 
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eleos1954

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We are commanded to spread the Gospel. This is one of the most important aspects of our faith.

I thank God for those who were my friends that had the courage to share the Gospel with me.

One of the most memorable moments of my life was when a former student shared that she had come to faith after hearing a lesson I had taught to a group of students at my school, which met before the school day began.
She wanted me to know the part I had played in her conversion.

I was dying, and found the only doctor with the cure.
I now want to share this doctor with the whole world.
He is the only one who has overcome death.


You can share the Gospel with your friends, family, and co-workers, or through a church body.

They need you, and there will be times when you need them.

.

We are commanded to spread the Gospel. This is one of the most important aspects of our faith.

Yep and many many ways of doing this.
 
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eleos1954

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This board is not church. It does not constitute the biblical gathering together of the saints. It is both disobedience and selfish for you not to attend church, unless it is physically impossible. Listen to what Hebrews 10:24-25 says:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


It is my experience in Ireland and here that people that argue they don’t need to go to church are selfish. Their Christian walk is all about what they want or think. They have little to give others, and have little care either.

They have no concept of serving the body.

The context of Hebrews 10:24-25 is fellowship and the necessity of it. We should not miss the Holy Spirit’s introductory remarks on the subject in v 24 is: “let us consider one another.” Being a Christian is not about us, it is about (1) God and (2) about others and (3) us. In fact ministry is about all about God and others. It is a selfless thing. It is a giving thing. It is dying to self and self-interest.

The phrase “let us consider” is taken from the singular word katanoeo (kat-an-o-eh'-o) meaning ‘to observe fully’ or ‘consider with the mind attentively fixed’. Therefore, as believers, we should be sensitive to “one another” and continually contemplate the needs of our brethren, so as to render mutual help and counsel.

We need the fellowship of others, but others need us. If you can go to church and you don’t, what you are showing is that you are selfish and that you have no interest in the needs of your brethren.

The text goes unto to say: “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is.”

The Greek word here for “manner” is ethos (eth'-os); meaning “habit.” In short, this is saying that some have got into the bad habit of not attending their local church. Don’t be like them.

What happens when believers pull back from fellowshipping with the rest of the body?

They lose out and the body loses out.

1 Cor 12:12, 15-18, 20-23

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ…

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him…


21 the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.


When the New Testament church was in its infancy one thing that marked it was the faithfulness of its members in attending the meeting place. This should equally mark the end-time church.

The Bible says that the on-fire early church continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers” (Acts 2:42).

This word “stedfastly” means ‘to be earnest towards’, ‘to attend assiduously to a particular exercise’, or ‘to adhere closely to (as a servitor)’.

Plainly, the early believers were earnestly committed to fellowshipping together regularly.

Acts 2:46 then goes on to tell us: “they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God.”

If you don’t continually pitch your tent at Bethel you will never be strong in the Lord. It is indeed the house of God.

When things are tough or you can’t make sense of what is going on around you visiting the house of God helps.

The man of God testified in Psalm 73:12-19

12 Behold … the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.


You get revelation and perspective in the house of God that you will not get out there in that sinful world.

It is both disobedience and selfish for you not to attend church

Where in His Word does it state it is a sin not to attend organized church?

Who are you to judge me or others who choose not to?

Your judgmental statement is exactly one of the reasons I do not attend church.

"sinful world" ??? Are there not sinners in church? Yes of course there is.

His Word .... all of it is sufficient and is available to anyone to study and it is our personal responsibility to do so.

The true church is the body of believers that are in Christ and that is an individual relationship with Him and that relationship transcends all church systems. (thank you Jesus)

John 3

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

whoever ... not whoever attends a organized church system.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Where in His Word does it state it is a sin not to attend organized church?

Who are you to judge me or others who choose not to?

Your judgmental statement is exactly one of the reasons I do not attend church.

"sinful world" ??? Are there not sinners in church? Yes of course there is.

His Word .... all of it is sufficient and is available to anyone to study and it is our personal responsibility to do so.

The true church is the body of believers that are in Christ and that is an individual relationship with Him and that relationship transcends all church systems. (thank you Jesus)

John 3

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

whoever ... not whoever attends a organized church system.

To disobey the explicit instruction of God to fellowship is sin. It is selfish and prideful for someone to think they do not need the body of Christ, and the body of Christ does not need you.

Why should we attend the local church regular?

1. God’s Word commands it.
2. God’s people have always done it throughout history, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament and since Bible times.
3. Jesus (our ultimate example) did it.
4. The very word “church” (ecclesia) actually means gathering or assembly of God’s people.
5. It allows us to build up healthy spiritual relations with others of a kindred spirit.
6. It enables you to receive spiritual edification from the rest of the body. There is strength for each member when the whole body is functioning as one. One member possesses something the other doesn’t.
7. Church fellowship is another means of crushing our flesh. Being under the Gospel and being around godly people keeps us on fire and on the straight and narrow.
8. God’s people meeting together means more talent being employed to reach more people. An active local church affords opportunities for God’s people to serve God. They can employ their gifting for the Lord. It provides an opportunity for you to exercise your gifts, callings and abilities among God’s people and among the lost.
9. How else are you able to fulfil the many crucial spiritual demands to the body to “receive ye one another” (Romans 15:7), “consider one another” Hebrews 10:24), “comfort one another” (1 Thessalonians 4:18), “edify one another” (1 Thessalonians 5:11), “admonish one another” (Romans 15:14), “exhort one another” (Hebrews 3:13, 10:24), “do good … unto them who are of the household of faith” (Galatians 6:10) “care one for another” (1 Cor 12:25), ‘prefer one another’ (Romans 12:10), “serve one another” (Galatians 5:13), “forbearing one another in love” (Ephesians 4:3), “forgiving one another” (Ephesians 4:32), “pray one for another” (James 5:16)?
10.You receive (or should receive) the Word of God on a regular basis from a Pastor that God has called and separated specifically to minister. He in turn should be able to give his life, his time and his efforts to tending to the spiritual needs of the local body. Being able (as an occupation) to focus exclusively upon the ministry, he should be more capable of hearing from God and then in turn bringing the heart of God to the local body.
11.There is an intensification of spiritual power when believers meet together in faith, unity and truth. There is spiritual power in agreement.
12.It curtails the influence and power of Satan.
13.When things get tough there is a Christian support base able to uphold and support you through the trials of life. Church fellowship facilitates mutual encouragement.
14.Having a local church/congregation means there is a local place to congregate for local believers to praise, worship and thank Jesus and collectively pray.
15.When some searching or hurting sinner is seeking spiritual help and hope, they know there is a spiritual lighthouse in that community where they can receive assistance.
16.It offers converts to the faith a place of worship and a place to grow and be nurtured in the faith.
17.It stops us from backsliding. If you wander there are others to point you back to where you should be.
18.There is accountability. There is a covering. Being part of a body ministry provides protection from the false accuser. Your submission to godly authority shows the depth of your spirituality.
19.It provides a wholesome spiritual environment for our kids and grandkids to build godly relationships with other young people who love Christ. It stops them looking in the wrong places for friendships. When they get to an age where they are looking for a Christian spouse there is a suitable place where they can find a righteous partner.
20.The gathering together of believers and the combining of their financial and material resources and their natural abilities allows the church to achieve more practically for the kingdom of God.
21.The uniting of a church’s finances allows a local church to employ a man of God to give himself full-time to the ministry.
22.You have a credible accountable organised leadership (Pastor, Elder, and Deacons) set up to minister to all the different needs that confront Christians on their Christian journey.


Christians are saved to be part of a healthy collective body. Christians are meant to build up fruitful relationship with other believers and have a heart for reaching out to the lost.
 
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Timtofly

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2 Thessalonians 2:8

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Exodus 3:20

Berean Study Bible
But He (God) added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”
Yes, all the tares and goats will be consumed in judgment. They will all die.
 
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Timtofly

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Not so. I challenge the Premil portrayal that attributes much to Rev 20 that does not exist in it. They pretend that their Millennium is Edenic when in fact it is the total opposite. It is a rerun of our age - exactly. It is full of billions of phonies and continued corruption.
That is your private interpretation. That does not measure up to any verse in the Bible.
 
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Timtofly

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Something major happened after that that stripped Satan of his power and influence. Guess what happened?
The Holy Spirit was sent to the church to fight a spiritual battle on earth. The church is currently the Spirit filled thorn in the side of spiritual wickedness. Until the church becomes a harlot. Then another body of Christ arises to cover the apostate church. Then when that body becomes apostate a new generation of Christians comes forward. That happens over and over generation after generation.
 
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