Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

sovereigngrace

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Okay I agree there's a spiritual kingdom that Jesus currently rules, I've never debated that.
You just confirmed that Satan rules on the physical earth though, delegated to do so by God.
I'm just telling you, that Jesus will reclaim rightful rulership of the physical Earth AS WELL. You deny that. When Jesus takes that rulership of the physical Earth, when he strips Satan and the beast of the delegated authority, He establishes a physical kingdom on this Earth, and everyone, believer or not, WILL Acknowledge Him as King of King and Lord of Lords. This isn't only believers, EVERYONE EVERY SINGLE ONE. They could be a totally committed Luciferian, but they WILL NOT BE ABLE to deny that Christ is THEIR King, when He returns and the kingdoms of the earth are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

EVERY Knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall swear.

"The world" is the ungodly environment around us. He is not God oof this globe, Jesus is. The world is the ungodly system out there that is captivated with sin and selfishness. It is the rule of man in society instead of the rule of God. The world is the ungodly cultural norm out there that man has invented to entertain himself and advance himself. It is the devil’s playing ground around us.

The world wants to conform you to its way of thinking, which is the complete opposite to the Word of God and the will of God.

A W Pink describes the world as “the human family, fashioning the framework of human society in accord with its own tendencies. It is the organized kingdom of the ‘carnal mind’ which is ‘enmity against God’ and which is ‘not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be’ (Romans 8:7).”

Evangelical writer Dr. Greg Bahnsen (writing on the subject of Satan) describes it well: “it denotes the immoral realm of disobedience rather than the all-inclusive, extensive scope of creation. The ‘world’ represents the life of man apart from God and bound to sinful impulses.”

“The world is that realm which is under God's condemnation (I Cor. 11:32), for to walk ‘according to the course of this world’ is to follow Satan and to be a ‘son of disobedience’ and therefore a ‘child of wrath’ (Eph. 2:2-3) … it is evident that ‘world’ denotes the ethical sphere of sinful rebellion.”

Can you see that “the world” is identified as the sinful environment that we live in on this earth that is controlled by Satan.

That is what John is referring to in 1 John 5:19 when he says: the whole world lieth in wickedness.

No wonder the Bible commands us in Romans 12:2: "be not conformed to this world.”

The world is the wicked realm where Satan rules.

True believers have always gone against the popular culture and thinking of the day they live in. They have been created to go against the current of the river and challenge the greed, sin and pride that arises. Why? Because popular culture is normally wrong.
 
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sovereigngrace

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no ..... not amil

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ marks the beginning of the Millennium. At the second coming, the righteous dead will be resurrected (the "first resurrection", Revelation 20:5), and both they and the righteous living at that time will be taken to heaven to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

The rest of mankind (the wicked, or unrighteous) living at His coming will be killed at the second coming, leaving the earth devoid of human life with the 2nd resurrection of the dead lost happening after the 1,000 years in heaven are spent.

The earth is desolate for the 1,000 years and satan has no one to tempt.

After the 1,000 years ... the 2nd resurrection happens ... the battle of Gog and Magog happens and God then destroys the earth and everything in it with eternal fire... including all the wicked lost, satan and his minions.

God then makes everything new.

Do you believe in corroboration?
 
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sovereigngrace

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no ..... not amil

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ marks the beginning of the Millennium. At the second coming, the righteous dead will be resurrected (the "first resurrection", Revelation 20:5), and both they and the righteous living at that time will be taken to heaven to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

The rest of mankind (the wicked, or unrighteous) living at His coming will be killed at the second coming, leaving the earth devoid of human life with the 2nd resurrection of the dead lost happening after the 1,000 years in heaven are spent.

The earth is desolate for the 1,000 years and satan has no one to tempt.

After the 1,000 years ... the 2nd resurrection happens ... the battle of Gog and Magog happens and God then destroys the earth and everything in it with eternal fire... including all the wicked lost, satan and his minions.

God then makes everything new.

Who are Gog and Magog? And where do they come from?
 
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Jamdoc

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"The world" is the ungodly environment around us. He is not God oof this globe, Jesus is. The world is the ungodly system out there that is captivated with sin and selfishness. It is the rule of man in society instead of the rule of God. The world is the ungodly cultural norm out there that man has invented to entertain himself and advance himself. It is the devil’s playing ground around us.

The world wants to conform you to its way of thinking, which is the complete opposite to the Word of God and the will of God.

A W Pink describes the world as “the human family, fashioning the framework of human society in accord with its own tendencies. It is the organized kingdom of the ‘carnal mind’ which is ‘enmity against God’ and which is ‘not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be’ (Romans 8:7).”

Evangelical writer Dr. Greg Bahnsen (writing on the subject of Satan) describes it well: “it denotes the immoral realm of disobedience rather than the all-inclusive, extensive scope of creation. The ‘world’ represents the life of man apart from God and bound to sinful impulses.”

“The world is that realm which is under God's condemnation (I Cor. 11:32), for to walk ‘according to the course of this world’ is to follow Satan and to be a ‘son of disobedience’ and therefore a ‘child of wrath’ (Eph. 2:2-3) … it is evident that ‘world’ denotes the ethical sphere of sinful rebellion.”

Can you see that “the world” is identified as the sinful environment that we live in on this earth that is controlled by Satan.

That is what John is referring to in 1 John 5:19 when he says: the whole world lieth in wickedness.

No wonder the Bible commands us in Romans 12:2: "be not conformed to this world.”

The world is the wicked realm where Satan rules.

True believers have always gone against the popular culture and thinking of the day they live in. They have been created to go against the current of the river and challenge the greed, sin and pride that arises. Why? Because popular culture is normally wrong.

Yeah.. and..
God will pour out His wrath in judgement of the world
and then declare that the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.
That's scripture buddy. The current world is something God is sovereign over but has given stewardship of to Satan. In the Future, that will not be the case. God is claiming what He has sovereignty over back.

We're in agreement that God rules heaven, that God rules a spiritual kingdom.
There was never an argument about that.

I THINK we're in agreement that Satan rules this physical world right now
Now do you come to agree that Jesus will rule this physical earth in person as well?
He's not limited to a spiritual kingdom, on His head are MANY diadems.
 
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eleos1954

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

You highlight the statement “the dead in Christ shall rise first” as proof that “the first resurrection” occurs at the second coming. The only problem is: there is another group here outside of “the dead in Christ” who Premils insist are actually participants in “the first resurrection” that are not included in “the dead in Christ” and who are actually raised second – those “which are alive and remain.” The very usage of “first” is used to simply distinguish between the raising of the dead in Christ at the second coming and the raising of the live in Christ, not between the resurrection of the righteous when Jesus comes and the raising of the wicked 1,000 years+ after Jesus comes. Premil is faced with a major conundrum here: those “which are alive and remain” when Jesus comes are excluded from the Premil “first resurrection” and therefore the only expressed means of victory over “the second death.”

What they need to see is: there are two parties here. The "first" are "the dead in Christ" alone! The second are the 'live in Christ' alone! The word "first" is simply to show order at the general resurrection. The dead rise first and the “live” rise second. 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply showing order.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
Who are Gog and Magog? And where do they come from?

well should have said battle with Gog and Magog ..... too lengthly to post in here .... but Gog and Magog are all the wicked from all time .... attacks the New Jerusalem that has descended from heaven to earth .... this is the battle of Armageddon.
 
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sovereigngrace

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2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.


well should have said battle with Gog and Magog ..... too lengthly to post in here .... but Gog and Magog are all the wicked from all time .... attacks the New Jerusalem that has descended from heaven to earth .... this is the battle of Armageddon.

But I thought "all the wicked from all time" are dead? How can they attack "the New Jerusalem that has descended from heaven to earth"? That sounds far-fetched.
 
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eleos1954

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But i thought "all the wicked from all time" are dead? How can they attack "the New Jerusalem that has descended from heaven to earth"? That sounds ridiculous.

They are resurrected (2nd resurrection) .... everybody get's resurrected ...

John 5:29

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life,

and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment
 
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Timtofly

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no ..... not amil

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ marks the beginning of the Millennium. At the second coming, the righteous dead will be resurrected (the "first resurrection", Revelation 20:5), and both they and the righteous living at that time will be taken to heaven to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

The rest of mankind (the wicked, or unrighteous) living at His coming will be killed at the second coming, leaving the earth devoid of human life with the 2nd resurrection of the dead lost happening after the 1,000 years in heaven are spent.

The earth is desolate for the 1,000 years and satan has no one to tempt.

After the 1,000 years ... the 2nd resurrection happens ... the battle of Gog and Magog happens and God then destroys the earth and everything in it with eternal fire... including all the wicked lost, satan and his minions.

God then makes everything new.
This is post mill view. Sorry but if no one is on earth, why do saints in heaven rebel? It is this post mill position that amil started to argue against. Then they were emboldened and started to attack God's Word and pre-mill teachings.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yeah.. and..
God will pour out His wrath in judgement of the world
and then declare that the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.
That's scripture buddy. The current world is something God is sovereign over but has given stewardship of to Satan. In the Future, that will not be the case. God is claiming what He has sovereignty over back.

We're in agreement that God rules heaven, that God rules a spiritual kingdom.
There was never an argument about that.

I THINK we're in agreement that Satan rules this physical world right now
Now do you come to agree that Jesus will rule this physical earth in person as well?
He's not limited to a spiritual kingdom, on His head are MANY diadems.

But, there is nowhere in Scripture that states that God has "given stewardship to Satan." You have forced that into the Bible to support your flawed beliefs.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Here you have it: “all rule and all authority and power” are “put down” at “Christ's … Coming.” It is that simple, and that clear. Those who take a clear, objective and literal straightforward reading of this text will see that it spells the end of all rebellion. However, this is the opposite to the Premil millennium: which has more wicked and more enemies arising and culminates in the greatest uprising in human history – as the wicked, against the saints of God “as the sand of the sea.”

Paul then reminds us:

1 Corinthians 15:25-26: “For he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!

There you have it! The second coming sees the final subjugation of all:

· rule
· authority
· power
· death

Paul then reinforces this thought:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 “For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotasso) subdued (or subordinated or submitted to) unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to), that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.

The whole focus here is the current reign of Christ upon the heavenly throne that will culminate in the final downfall of all his enemies when he appears. Then we'll his enemies finally be subdued, put down, and made his footstool.

Hebrews 1:2, 3, 2:9 says, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.”

There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn't. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
 
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sovereigngrace

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eleos1954

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This is post mill view. Sorry but if no one is on earth, why do saints in heaven rebel? It is this post mill position that amil started to argue against. Then they were emboldened and started to attack God's Word and pre-mill teachings.

The saints don't rebel in heaven ... where does that come from?
 
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Jamdoc

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I just had an insight brother, I read the book of Esther and I thought, this doesn't even mention God, how is this scripture profitable at all?

But I see it now.. I see how it paints this picture of Christ, as every book in the Old Testament contains an illustration of Christ.

Okay so the King in Persia represents Jesus in a way, He has sovereignty, and what happens? He marries Esther, a new bride. The King delegates power to a wicked steward, Haman. Haman demands that Mordecai the Jew bow before him, and Mordecai refuses. Haman then decides to exterminate ALL of the Jews for this slight. The bride, Esther, intercedes with the King on behalf of Mordecai, and the King is reminded that Mordecai has favor with him as Haman is planning to execute Mordecai. Instead, Haman is stripped of his authority and hung from the gallows that were prepared for Mordecai, and the King delivers his bride, and Mordecai, and their people.

On the surface it's just the establishment of the feast of Purim.
But underneath.... our King is Christ, we are His bride, power and authority are delegated to a wicked Steward (Satan) and he seeks to destroy the people of God (Mordecai, the Jews, and also the people of the bride, Christians), the Bride intercedes with the sovereign King, and through the bride, covenants with the Jews are fulfilled, I believe that we will witness to a remnant and they will come to Christ, and through that, all Israel will be saved, that remnant will be brought back into the favor of our King. Finally the King will put his foot down and destroy the wicked steward.

am I crazy for seeing that illustration in there? Is it just random that I read that book last night and found something that illustrates the argument we're having about sovereignty and stewardship?
 
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Timtofly

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However, this is the opposite to the Premil millennium: which has more wicked and more enemies arising and culminates in the greatest uprising in human history – as the wicked, against the saints of God “as the sand of the sea.”
You do realize this is God's Word you are mocking? Premill accepts God's Word as written. We do not mock God's Word. Amil deny God, that is the point Premill mock amil with. I mean, I have seen your own post, mock Premill belief on God many times. But we do not mock God's Word. That goes way above the call of duty for stewardship.
 
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Timtofly

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The saints don't rebel in heaven ... where does that come from?
You are mixing up the verse order of Revelation 20. The second resurrection is after the battle of Gog and Megog, not before. There are people who live on earth for 1000 years.
 
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Jamdoc

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But, there is nowhere in Scripture that states that God has "given stewardship to Satan." You have forced that into the Bible to support your flawed beliefs.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Here you have it: “all rule and all authority and power” are “put down” at “Christ's … Coming.” It is that simple, and that clear. Those who take a clear, objective and literal straightforward reading of this text will see that it spells the end of all rebellion. However, this is the opposite to the Premil millennium: which has more wicked and more enemies arising and culminates in the greatest uprising in human history – as the wicked, against the saints of God “as the sand of the sea.”

Paul then reminds us:

1 Corinthians 15:25-26: “For he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!

There you have it! The second coming sees the final subjugation of all:

· rule
· authority
· power
· death

Paul then reinforces this thought:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 “For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotasso) subdued (or subordinated or submitted to) unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to), that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.

The whole focus here is the current reign of Christ upon the heavenly throne that will culminate in the final downfall of all his enemies when he appears. Then we'll his enemies finally be subdued, put down, and made his footstool.

Hebrews 1:2, 3, 2:9 says, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.”

There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn't. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

Why are you ignoring Luke 4 that I mentioned where Satan said the power over the kingdoms of the world was delivered unto him?

You asked for scripture, I gave it, you ignore it, then spit out walls of text.
 
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eleos1954

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You are mixing up the verse order of Revelation 20. The second resurrection is after the battle of Gog and Megog, not before. There are people who live on earth for 1000 years.

2 Thessalonians 2:8

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Exodus 3:20

Berean Study Bible
But He (God) added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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You do realize this is God's Word you are mocking? Premill accepts God's Word as written. We do not mock God's Word. Amil deny God, that is the point Premill mock amil with. I mean, I have seen your own post, mock Premill belief on God many times. But we do not mock God's Word. That goes way above the call of duty for stewardship.

Not so. I challenge the Premil portrayal that attributes much to Rev 20 that does not exist in it. They pretend that their Millennium is Edenic when in fact it is the total opposite. It is a rerun of our age - exactly. It is full of billions of phonies and continued corruption.
 
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sovereigngrace

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2 Thessalonians 2:8

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Exodus 3:20

Berean Study Bible
But He (God) added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

You sidestepped the question
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why are you ignoring Luke 4 that I mentioned where Satan said the power over the kingdoms of the world was delivered unto him?

You asked for scripture, I gave it, you ignore it, then spit out walls of text.

Something major happened after that that stripped Satan of his power and influence. Guess what happened?
 
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