Covenant and New Covenant theology

BABerean2 · Aug 29, 2020

Guojing said:
By the time Paul came into the picture, yes, the previous gospel of the kingdom can no longer save.

Are you saying David was saved by animal sacrifices?

Or was he saved by faith in his offspring who was promised to be the Messiah?

See Hebrews chapter 11, if you are not sure.

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Guojing · Aug 29, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying David was saved by animal sacrifices?

Or was he saved by faith in his offspring who was promised to be the Messiah?

See Hebrews chapter 11, if you are not sure.

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I already stated one is always saved by showing faith in God, by obeying what the Lord commanded. That is what Hebrews 11 also states.

During OT, those born after Moses, had to keep the law of Moses, and offer the animal sacrifice everytime they failed to do so. That was what God commanded them do so (Exodus 19:3-6).

At the end, so long as they are not cut off from the nation Israel, they will all be placed in paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

BABerean2 · Aug 29, 2020

Guojing said:
I already stated one is always saved by showing faith in God, by obeying what the Lord commanded. That is what Hebrews 11 also states.

During OT, those born after Moses, had to keep the law of Moses, and offer the animal sacrifice everytime they failed to do so. That was what God commanded them do so (Exodus 19:3-6).

At the end, so long as they are not cut off from the nation Israel, they will all be placed in paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

Apparently, you need to read Hebrews 11 again.
What was the promise the Old Testament Saints were looking for in Hebrews 11:1-16?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

It is the same city promised in Revelation 3:12, and once again proves the error of the Two Peoples of God/Two Kingdoms of God doctrine.

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Thera · Aug 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I'm not sure.....but I believe they were excluded from the Israelite assembly. That's why this event was so meaningful:

Acts 8
Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”c 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.

But....it wasn't supposed to be that way. Gentiles and eunuchs were never supposed to be excluded from the assembly.

Isaiah 56
3Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

4For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—5I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

Interesting. I hadn't read it that way before. I thought it was referring to the leadership of Israel, which fits in better with the passage from Isaiah, and Daniel (possibly an eunuch) and Ruth (a Moabitess). But Daniel may not have been an eunuch, and Ruth was a Moabitess rather than a Moabite (as David was only 3rd generation from Ruth).

Deut 23:1 - 6 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:
Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.
Nevertheless the Lord thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.
Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

I think from the passage most Gentiles were allowed in the assembly (other than Moabites and Ammonites). For females essentially straight-away, and males once they had been converted.

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2020

Guojing said:
Well that was what Acts 2 literally stated, so I am just repeating it.

I never stated any of them could keep the Law fully, but God commanded them to follow the Law, so to show faith in God, they had to do it. God provided the system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to keep it.

The Law was meant to point to Christ:

Galatians 3:24 ~ So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law was fulfilled in the faithful Jewish remnant and the early Gentile believers.....that was accomplished by God’s work....not any work of humanity (just faith....faith like Abraham....faith like David....etc):

Romans 8:3-4 ~ For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh [external laws of Old Covenant] but according to the Spirit [New Covenant].

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2020

Guojing said:
Again, that only happen after the nation rejected their Messiah.

All those you quoted were a mystery hidden in God until Paul was raised.

Where are you getting this word "nation" from?

Israel was a called out assembly in covenant with God. Their covenant time period was coming to an end. God changed His last will & Testament (so to speak)....but a remnant from that Mosaic Covenant were faithful....and brought into the New Covenant. That was the New Israel of God. God gave the inheritance of His kingdom to those that were faithful.

IOW....the Old Covenant Israelites were divided between those that were apostate....and those that were faithful.

Parable of the Wicked Tenants
Matthew 21:33-45; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-18

Matthew 21
43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l”45When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2020

Thera said:
Interesting. I hadn't read it that way before. I thought it was referring to the leadership of Israel, which fits in better with the passage from Isaiah, and Daniel (possibly an eunuch) and Ruth (a Moabitess).

When you write, "I thought it was referring to the leadership of Israel ".....what do you mean by "it"? The word, "eunuch"?

mkgal1 · Aug 29, 2020

Thera said:
I think from the passage most Gentiles were allowed in the assembly (other than Moabites and Ammonites). For females essentially straight-away, and males once they had been converted.

Wasn't Ruth a Moabite?

What you're pointing out, though - that Gentiles were allowed into the Israelite assembly - is what a lot of futurists miss when attempting to make the Israelite assembly about race/DNA. It was about covenant and faith (although corruption was mixed in as well).

Guojing · Aug 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Where are you getting this word "nation" from?

Israel was a called out assembly in covenant with God. Their covenant time period was coming to an end. God changed His last will & Testament (so to speak)....but a remnant from that Mosaic Covenant were faithful....and brought into the New Covenant. That was the New Israel of God. God gave the inheritance of His kingdom to those that were faithful.

IOW....the Old Covenant Israelites were divided between those that were apostate....and those that were faithful.

Parable of the Wicked Tenants
Matthew 21:33-45; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-18

Matthew 21
43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l”45When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them

Israel is a nation born of God. The only nation in the world that had and will have a covenant with God.

Guojing · Aug 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The Law was meant to point to Christ:

Galatians 3:24 ~ So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law was fulfilled in the faithful Jewish remnant and the early Gentile believers.....that was accomplished by God’s work....not any work of humanity (just faith....faith like Abraham....faith like David....etc):

Romans 8:3-4 ~ For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh [external laws of Old Covenant] but according to the Spirit [New Covenant].

That is correct, but Christ had not come during David's time.

I don't anticipate revelation and think "David must have known about Christ during his time, and when he sacrifice the animal, he is thinking about Christ on the cross"

Guojing · Aug 29, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Apparently, you need to read Hebrews 11 again.
What was the promise the Old Testament Saints were looking for in Hebrews 11:1-16?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

It is the same city promised in Revelation 3:12, and once again proves the error of the Two Peoples of God/Two Kingdoms of God doctrine.

.

That passage you quote does not contradict the point I was making.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2020

Guojing said:
That is correct, but Christ had not come during David's time.

I don't anticipate revelation and think "David must have known about Christ during his time, and when he sacrifice the animal, he is thinking about Christ on the cross"

I never posted that when David sacrificed animals, He was thinking about Christ on the Cross. ???

However.....we know that King David was a prophet (as Peter had stated)....and had wisdom about Christ Jesus:

Acts 2:25 ~ King David said this about him: ‘I see that the LORD is always with me. I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

Psalm 16:8-11

I know the LORD is always with me.

I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

No wonder my heart is glad, and I rejoice.b

My body rests in safety.

For you will not leave my soul among the deadc

or allow your holy oned to rot in the grave.

You will show me the way of life,

granting me the joy of your presence

and the pleasures of living with you forever.

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2020

Guojing said:
Israel is a nation born of God. The only nation in the world that had and will have a covenant with God.

What Scripture informs you of that (and includes the word, "nation")?

Guojing · Aug 30, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I never posted that when David sacrificed animals, He was thinking about Christ on the Cross. ???

However.....we know that King David was a prophet (as Peter had stated)....and had wisdom about Christ Jesus:

Acts 2:25 ~ King David said this about him: ‘I see that the LORD is always with me. I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

Psalm 16:8-11

I know the LORD is always with me.

I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

No wonder my heart is glad, and I rejoice.b

My body rests in safety.

For you will not leave my soul among the deadc

or allow your holy oned to rot in the grave.

You will show me the way of life,

granting me the joy of your presence

and the pleasures of living with you forever.

But my point was that David had to follow the law, and sacrifice an animal when he failed

you don’t disagree with that correct?

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2020

Guojing said:
But my point was that David had to follow the law, and sacrifice an animal when he failed

you don’t disagree with that correct?

Is that what David told Nathan when it was revealed to him that his sin was known to God?

Did David tell Nathan to go and sacrifice an animal for him, or did David repent of his sin?

2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

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Guojing · Aug 30, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Is that what David told Nathan when it was revealed to him that his sin was known to God?

Did David tell Nathan to go and sacrifice an animal for him, or did David repent of his sin?

2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

.

U mean Nathan had to do the animal sacrifice for him?

how did you know he didn’t sacrifice any animal after that?

Guojing · Aug 30, 2020

mkgal1 said:
What Scripture informs you of that (and includes the word, "nation")?

Many verses

Genesis 12:2
Exodus 4:22
Exodus 19:5-6
Exodus 32:9-10

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2020

Guojing said:
U mean Nathan had to do the animal sacrifice for him?

how did you know he didn’t sacrifice any animal after that?

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

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Guojing · Aug 30, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

.

That is true. Again, do you think anyone in the OT could have read Hebrews?

God commanded them to sacrifice animals when they sin, they do it. By doing it, they showed God they had faith in him.

We now know it only covered sins, and that Jesus was the final sacrifice, but that is because we had the chance to read Hebrews

BABerean2 · Aug 30, 2020

Guojing said:
That is true. Again, do you think anyone in the OT could have read Hebrews?

Do you think God stands outside of time and space?

There is nothing in the Old Testament text about King David sacrificing an animal after he was confronted by Nathan about his sin, but that does not keep you from inventing it.

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Covenant and New Covenant theology

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