Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

Jamdoc

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Where did he say this?
Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is why the great tribulations were not 70AD, or Antiochus, or any other historical event.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes the revelation was revealed to other ascension apostles and prophets AFTER the apostle Paul first received it as God`s word says.

`How that by revelation He (Christ) made known to ME (Paul) the mystery...` (Eph. 3: 3)


You are ignoring what happened with Peter at the house of Cornelius in order to make your doctrine work.


Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?



Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I always thought all Christians were premillennialists. Even in my most heretical Catholic upbringing (in the defense of Catholics my Catholic upbringing was NOT a traditional one. My mom and the Catholic churches my mom brought us to were NOT Catholic in any way, shape, or form, they were mostly new age churches and beliefs) was I not brought up in premillennialism. So I knew the doctrine from a VERY young age.

So I agree with the OP. To deny a basic teaching of Christianity is like saying Preserverence of The Saints for example isn't true. There's a reason a majority of the church believes in preserverence of the saints and that isn't because of the New Age movement. Its because if you take a literal view of scripture and if you actually open up your Bibles and read them, its an undeniable fact of scripture. Scripture all over teaches the doctrine. Just like premillennialism. Its in your bibles folks. If you say its not in scripture, I suggest you read scripture more closely. Because, its there.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I just don't see how you guys can think that Jesus ONLY has a spiritual kingdom.
He has a spiritual kingdom now, He will get an earthly kingdom after the 7th trumpet, and He will have an eternal kingdom in a new heavens and new earth after final judgement. Why is the assumption that if you believe in an earthly kingdom that you don't believe in the spiritual kingdom? Why does Jesus only get 1 kingdom or the other? He gets them all in scripture.

He introduces the NHNE after His coming. The OT kingdom was physical, earthly and temporal. It was an imperfect type of Christ's kingdom which He introduced at the beginning of His earthly ministry. Premils have nothing in the NT, not even Rev 20. It does not say what they want it to say. They therefore foist it upon the sacred text. Premils constantly present the Old Testament as if the new covenant has never arrived. It is as if Jesus Christ has not come and fulfilled the old imperfect typical arrangement and introduced the new perfect eternal arrangement. It is as if the Old Testament promises have not been interpreted by the New Testament writers. What Premils insist is literal, physical, visible and earthly, the New Testament writers interpret as figurative, spiritual, invisible and heavenly. What Premils locate in their supposed future millennium, the New Testament writers locate in our current intra-Advent period.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jesus also taught that He'd return to earth. That's also premillennial. To discard premillennial is to discard Revelation 20, a new testament book written by an Apostle, who very much knew that Jesus WAS on the right hand of the Father in heaven. Or at the very least, discard its meaning and claim that what it describes is hyperbole.

Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Notice the fulfilled Prophecy many still blindly look for.

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, And close up the breaches thereof; And I will raise up his ruins, And I will build it as in the days of old:” Amos 9:11 (KJV 1900)

Speaking of the present times; “And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:” Acts 15:13–16 (KJV 1900)

Please note how Premils are careful to duck around repeated clear-as-crystal NT passages like this that show OT fulfillment because it exposes the error of the Premil theory. They have no answer to the truth of Scripture.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Easy, Jesus sits on the RIGHT HAND of the Father right now, He is not given the title King of Kings and Lord of Lords until the end times, He is not given the kingdoms of the earth that He is to rule until the 7th trumpet of God's wrath, as 1 Timothy 6 puts it that's when "his times" are come.

Revelation 11:15


Right now what He rules, sitting at the right hand of the Father is heaven, the current spiritual kingdom not of this world. Right now who rules the earth (even though God is sovereign over it, He allows Satan control of the earth), is Satan. Satan was able to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world, if only Jesus would worship him, in Luke 4:5-8.

I want you to notice this in the verse


Our sovereign father has PERMITTED Satan to have rulership of the earth, and has even given Satan authority to give rulership to whoever Satan chooses. In the end times, after Satan is cast out of heaven forever, Satan delegates his power to the beast, to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:2


This I find fascinating. Even after God has cast Satan out of heaven for good, Satan still has control over the earth and is able to delegate that authority to who he chooses. God still permits him that, for His purposes, it's beyond our comprehension, on WHY God would still grant this authority to His enemy that He just threw down from heaven and plans to destroy forever. His ways are higher.

Here's some food for thought.. in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 we have someone preventing the Antichrist from rising, like it cannot happen, until someone who is currently holding him back is taken out of the way. Have you ever thought that the person holding back and restraining is actually Satan? He's the one who wouldn't want these prophecies to happen because they mean he's doomed. He wants to stave them off from actually happening for as long as he can because right now he enjoys privilege, he has rulership of the earth AND he can accuse people before the throne in heaven. That's kind of a cushy arrangement for someone who rebelled against God and led humans created in God's image into sin against God. Once Satan gets kicked out he knows his time is short so he goes for maximum damage at that point, he stops restraining "all hell breaking loose". Anyway there's also the case for Michael which is one of the more traditional people filling the role of the restrainer. This is just speculation that makes some sense too.

Anyway, Jesus is not King of Kings and Lord of Lords on this earth yet, after the 7th Trumpet He is given the earth as His kingdom, the wedding supper of the lamb happens, then He returns to earth to establish the millennial kingdom and Satan is bound and can deceive the nations no more. He has an earthly kingdom for 1000 years there is 1 final act of rebellion, for unknown reasons, just what scripture says, and then the earth is destroyed, final judgement, and a new heaven and new earth are created and Jesus is the eternal king of those.

I see NOTHING in scripture that contradicts that view. In fact I only see confirmation.
If you want to call the spiritual kingdom of heaven that Jesus rules now as "Amillennial" fine, but we are also pre millennial of an earthly kingdom.

Premillennialists are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. As we have seen, that is not what Scripture depicts.

Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

Jesus declared in Matthew 28:18 after His resurrection, All power (exousia – ex-oo-see'-ah – or right, privilege and authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

He was given us His power. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

But how possibly can we exercise God’s authority when it is supreme? Surely that is ludicrous!

Jesus said in Mark 13:34: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

This authority that Jesus was speaking about has been left for you and me that love Him. We are His servants and we have been given His authority. It is delegated power and authority. This is incredible!

This word interpreted “authority” here is the exact same word that is used to describe God’s authority and Christ authority in the New Testament. Again, like we learned last week, this is the Greek word exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah) which means right, privilege and authority.

Remember, as it says in Romans 13:1: “For there is no power (or exousia – ex-oo-see'-ah – or right, privilege and authority) but of God:

That should be very gratifying, because this authority you possess and this power you exercise is the highest known or created.

While we are physically located on earth as Christians, we are spiritually located in heavenly places with Christ. Our authority could not be greater or higher.

· It is divine authority.
· It is heavenly authority.
· It is supernatural authority.
· It is spiritual authority.

But authority means nothing unless you use it. It must be enforced.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

Jesus said in Luke 10:18-19: Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14

14 I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases.

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in. Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.
 
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Jamdoc

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He introduces the NHNE after His coming. The OT kingdom was physical, earthly and temporal. It was an imperfect type of Christ's kingdom which He introduced at the beginning of His earthly ministry. Premils have nothing in the NT, not even Rev 20. It does not say what they want it to say. They therefore foist it upon the sacred text. Premils constantly present the Old Testament as if the new covenant has never arrived. It is as if Jesus Christ has not come and fulfilled the old imperfect typical arrangement and introduced the new perfect eternal arrangement. It is as if the Old Testament promises have not been interpreted by the New Testament writers. What Premils insist is literal, physical, visible and earthly, the New Testament writers interpret as figurative, spiritual, invisible and heavenly. What Premils locate in their supposed future millennium, the New Testament writers locate in our current intra-Advent period.

No if you take Revelation 20 plainly as it's written it's the strongest evidence of a millennial kingdom, it's the only place where it's described as being 1000 years and where we get the "Millennial" part from in the first place.

It's your unwillingness to take the bible as meaning what it says and having to abstract it into meaning something different that is the problem, YOU don't want to believe scripture you want to twist it into meaning what YOU WANT it to mean.
 
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Jamdoc

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Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

Not at all, what I do discard is that anyone aside from Jesus has been resurrected, they've gotten a guarantee of a resurrection in Christ but it hasn't happened yet, because what is taught is a BODILY resurrection.

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Have we had many who were dead and buried come out of their graves as living people again? No.

PAUL says your position is in error too.

2 Timothy 2:17-18
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 
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Jamdoc

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Premillennialists are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. As we have seen, that is not what Scripture depicts.

Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

Jesus declared in Matthew 28:18 after His resurrection, All power (exousia – ex-oo-see'-ah – or right, privilege and authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

He was given us His power. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

But how possibly can we exercise God’s authority when it is supreme? Surely that is ludicrous!

Jesus said in Mark 13:34: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

This authority that Jesus was speaking about has been left for you and me that love Him. We are His servants and we have been given His authority. It is delegated power and authority. This is incredible!

This word interpreted “authority” here is the exact same word that is used to describe God’s authority and Christ authority in the New Testament. Again, like we learned last week, this is the Greek word exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah) which means right, privilege and authority.

Remember, as it says in Romans 13:1: “For there is no power (or exousia – ex-oo-see'-ah – or right, privilege and authority) but of God:

That should be very gratifying, because this authority you possess and this power you exercise is the highest known or created.

While we are physically located on earth as Christians, we are spiritually located in heavenly places with Christ. Our authority could not be greater or higher.

· It is divine authority.
· It is heavenly authority.
· It is supernatural authority.
· It is spiritual authority.

But authority means nothing unless you use it. It must be enforced.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

Jesus said in Luke 10:18-19: Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14

14 I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases.

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in. Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

God is sovereign, but He has permitted Satan stewardship and control of this world. That is part of sovereignty, giving stewardship of what you are sovereign over to someone else. In the original creation, Adam was given stewardship of the earth. He lost it and Satan gained it in the fall, and Satan still maintains it.

First mention of Jesus as being "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" is 1 Timothy 6:15

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Paul didn't say He was King of Kings and Lord of Lords now. Paul said He WOULD be at a future date, in His times.

When are His times? They start with this.

Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

are become, that is, this just happened now. The kingdoms of this world were not His prior to this, but now they are.

This is now when He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and it is evidenced in Revelation 19:16
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Did He have that name on Him when John described Him in chapter 1 of Revelation? No. Now, I'm not saying He doesn't have those titles because Satan is keeping Him from having them or anything like that. He can be done with Satan anytime He wants to at an instant. But HE, the sovereign has chosen to LET Satan have authority on Earth for the time being, and to accuse us before the throne. That will change at a LATER date just before the Great Tribulations.

AND LET'S BE CLEAR, that it IS God who has the supreme authority, NOT the steward, but the steward is given management of the thing by the Sovereign. Someday, Jesus will delegate stewardship and authority over some things to us. HE is still sovereign over us and is still our King, but we will be entrusted to manage some things on His behalf. Satan is not sovereign, but he is granted stewardship right now to manage things on earth, and yes he is making an awful mess of it and is very bad at it.but that will just make us appreciate it more when he's gone.
 
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eleos1954

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Sad to say Dave, you sound like a Sadducee. :D

Everything is spiritual until He returns ... then the 1st resurrection happens and He takes the saved to heaven ... He reigns from the sanctuary in heaven from the time when He ascended and on into eternity. He will reign on the new earth when he makes everything new.
 
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Not at all, what I do discard is that anyone aside from Jesus has been resurrected, they've gotten a guarantee of a resurrection in Christ but it hasn't happened yet, because what is taught is a BODILY resurrection.

Daniel 12:2


Have we had many who were dead and buried come out of their graves as living people again? No.

PAUL says your position is in error too.

2 Timothy 2:17-18

There we go. You make the second general resurrection the first resurrection to fit your false teaching.

So, those in Revelation who are reigning in Rev 20 do so because Jesus defeated the grave and opened Hades 2000 years ago and led the redeemed dead into glory. They now reign with Him since the first resurrection. Rev 20 is ongoing and will finish at the coming of Christ which sees the general resurrection, judgment and the regeneration of this current world.

Revelation 20:11-15 gives us another view of the second coming: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up THE DEAD which were in it; and death and hell delivered up THE DEAD which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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Everything is spiritual until He returns ... then the 1st resurrection happens and He takes the saved to heaven ... He reigns from the sanctuary in heaven from the time when He ascended and on into eternity. He will reign on the new earth when he makes everything new.

The first resurrection has already occurred. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).
 
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Jamdoc

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The first resurrection has already occurred. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Paul said you are in error.

You want to jam a square peg into a round hole on this, by making things abstract.
preterism and historicism are trying to read things that have happened INTO scripture, rather than read scripture and extract OUT of scripture what will happen.
 
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eleos1954

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The first resurrection has already occurred. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

no ... He was the first fruits of the harvest (of the earth) to follow.

Berean Study Bible
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
 
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sovereigngrace

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God is sovereign, but He has permitted Satan stewardship and control of this world. That is part of sovereignty, giving stewardship of what you are sovereign over to someone else. In the original creation, Adam was given stewardship of the earth. He lost it and Satan gained it in the fall, and Satan still maintains it.

First mention of Jesus as being "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" is 1 Timothy 6:15



Paul didn't say He was King of Kings and Lord of Lords now. Paul said He WOULD be at a future date, in His times.

When are His times? They start with this.

Revelation 11:15


are become, that is, this just happened now. The kingdoms of this world were not His prior to this, but now they are.

This is now when He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and it is evidenced in Revelation 19:16


Did He have that name on Him when John described Him in chapter 1 of Revelation? No. Now, I'm not saying He doesn't have those titles because Satan is keeping Him from having them or anything like that. He can be done with Satan anytime He wants to at an instant. But HE, the sovereign has chosen to LET Satan have authority on Earth for the time being, and to accuse us before the throne. That will change at a LATER date just before the Great Tribulations.

AND LET'S BE CLEAR, that it IS God who has the supreme authority, NOT the steward, but the steward is given management of the thing by the Sovereign. Someday, Jesus will delegate stewardship and authority over some things to us. HE is still sovereign over us and is still our King, but we will be entrusted to manage some things on His behalf. Satan is not sovereign, but he is granted stewardship right now to manage things on earth, and yes he is making an awful mess of it and is very bad at it.but that will just make us appreciate it more when he's gone.

Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth.” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.
 
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sovereigngrace

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no ... He was the first fruits of the harvest (of the earth) to follow.

Berean Study Bible
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Exactly, He was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul said you are in error.

You want to jam a square peg into a round hole on this, by making things abstract.
preterism and historicism are trying to read things that have happened INTO scripture, rather than read scripture and extract OUT of scripture what will happen.

I am an Idealist. They, Partial Preterists, and Historicists, reject the error of Futurism.
 
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