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Dan1988

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But Revelation 21:4 doesn't say God wipes anyone's memory. It doesn't even remotely say that.

So the question remains, when and where did God say He would wipe anyone's memory?

-CryptoLutheran
Nobody suggested that He would just wipe out our memory completely, but the scriptures are very clear that there will be no mourning. Now how hard is it to put one and one together, and realize that you don't mourn for those you forgot ever existed.

Sometimes one needs to study the scripture to understand what they are teaching us. You can't just read the Bible like a comic book, you actually need to study it.

God does have access to our hard drives, He can add or delete anything He wants to since He is the One who designed and created it in the first place. I'm sure you wouldn't want the knowledge of your loved ones burning im hell for all eternity while you enjoy eternal paradise.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Nobody suggested that He would just wipe out our memory completely, but the scriptures are very clear that there will be no mourning. Now how hard is it to put one and one together, and realize that you don't mourn for those you forgot ever existed.

This is called eisegesis. Adding one's own ideas into the text. Exegesis means we draw the meaning from the text, rather than inserting what we want into the text.

Sometimes one needs to study the scripture to understand what they are teaching us. You can't just read the Bible like a comic book, you actually need to study it.

God does have access to our hard drives, He can add or delete anything He wants to since He is the One who designed and created it in the first place. I'm sure you wouldn't want the knowledge of your loved ones burning im hell for all eternity while you enjoy eternal paradise.

Hence why I'm challenging your claim, it's not biblical.

Not only not biblical, but even the purpose for which this false doctrine is being promoted--to comfort those worried about their eternity even as those they love suffer in hell--is not a doctrine of comfort. It is a doctrine of manipulation--that God is going to gaslight us all in order to make us not think about the horrors millions of human beings are experiencing.

This is pretty much a textbook example of mis-using the Bible to concoct bad doctrines based on bad theology.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Dan1988

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This is called eisegesis. Adding one's own ideas into the text. Exegesis means we draw the meaning from the text, rather than inserting what we want into the text.



Hence why I'm challenging your claim, it's not biblical.

Not only not biblical, but even the purpose for which this false doctrine is being promoted--to comfort those worried about their eternity even as those they love suffer in hell--is not a doctrine of comfort. It is a doctrine of manipulation--that God is going to gaslight us all in order to make us not think about the horrors millions of human beings are experiencing.

This is pretty much a textbook example of mis-using the Bible to concoct bad doctrines based on bad theology.

-CryptoLutheran
I notice you didn't provide any scriptures to support your private view. I can list around 120 verses to support what have stated.

You can't just dismiss those scriptures which contradict your views, you must embrace the whole counsel of God's Word, because "a little leaven, leavens the whole lump". So the idea is, when one embraces one false doctrine he needs to pervert the rest of Gods Word to keep his false doctrine afloat.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I notice you didn't provide any scriptures to support your private view. I can list around 120 verses to support what have stated.

You can't just dismiss those scriptures which contradict your views, you must embrace the whole counsel of God's Word, because "a little leaven, leavens the whole lump". So the idea is, when one embraces one false doctrine he needs to pervert the rest of Gods Word to keep his false doctrine afloat.

I haven't provided "my view", all I've done is point out that what you claimed isn't biblical.

And, no, you can't list 120 verses to support what you've said, because nothing in the Bible supports the view that God is going to take away our memories of people in hell.

All I'm suggesting is that you actually look to what Scripture says, that you think about things carefully and think them through. Because fundamentally our theology is what we say about God, what we say about Jesus, what we say about salvation--and that matters.

To suggest that God is going to gaslight us, give us some kind of amnesia, or otherwise hack our memories to manipulate us is a horrible thing to say about God, it paints God as a monster. God isn't a monster. God is the One who saves us, because He loves us--that's the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Sketcher

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If they go to Heaven, at least some of them will be different, or there will be some . . . interesting logistics. Some beloved dogs for instance, have been horrible with other dogs, and would instantly give chase to other peoples' beloved pet cats and rabbits.
 
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Dan1988

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I haven't provided "my view", all I've done is point out that what you claimed isn't biblical.

And, no, you can't list 120 verses to support what you've said, because nothing in the Bible supports the view that God is going to take away our memories of people in hell.

All I'm suggesting is that you actually look to what Scripture says, that you think about things carefully and think them through. Because fundamentally our theology is what we say about God, what we say about Jesus, what we say about salvation--and that matters.

To suggest that God is going to gaslight us, give us some kind of amnesia, or otherwise hack our memories to manipulate us is a horrible thing to say about God, it paints God as a monster. God isn't a monster. God is the One who saves us, because He loves us--that's the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
OK, I get it you don't want me to list those scriptures because you would have to twist them to make them conform to your private view of who God is and what He is allowed to do and what He's not allowed to do. You have created your own God and that is breaking the first commandment. I will pray for you.

I noticed you reject Gods Word as it is written, and you superimpose your word over His. You paint God as a monster who is going to torment me for all eternity with the knowledge that many of my loved ones are screaming in the lake of fire. My God is a God who only loves His elect and He hates the rest so much that He casts them into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I believe in the God who revealed Himself to us in the Bible, I have no idea who your god even is.
 
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ViaCrucis

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OK, I get it you don't want me to list those scriptures because you would have to twist them to make them conform to your private view of who God is and what He is allowed to do and what He's not allowed to do. You have created your own God and that is breaking the first commandment. I will pray for you.

This comes across as projection.

I noticed you reject Gods Word as it is written, and you superimpose your word over His. You paint God as a monster who is going to torment me for all eternity with the knowledge that many of my loved ones are screaming in the lake of fire. My God is a God who only loves His elect and He hates the rest so much that He casts them into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

All I've done is challenge your private interpretation, pointed out that Scripture doesn't say what you want it to say, and to have you think more about your beliefs. This is apparently all that is necessary for you to make all kinds of wild and baseless accusations about me.

I believe in the God who revealed Himself to us in the Bible, I have no idea who your god even is.

I mean, I can tell you about the God I believe in, it's the God which Christians have always believed in, He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel, He's the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And this is what I believe:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

I believe in Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord, begotten of the Father before all ages, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made; consubstantial with the Father. Through Him all things were made, and who for us men and for our salvation became flesh, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, and who rose on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures; who ascended into heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and whose kingdom will never end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], and who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, He has spoken by the prophets.

I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal life of the Age to Come.
Amen.

I worship one God in Trinity, Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the substance.

This is the universal faith of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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Doesn't that contradict Him giving us free will, though?
Mindwipe = forcing someone to think differently.
No I don't think so, not when you marry it up with verses such as Rev 21:4-5. I can't remember where I read it but it was written somewhere that when we are finally in the dwelling place of God, the suffering and pain we experienced on earth will no longer be remembered because our focus is on Him.

Having gone through grief, the only way I can interpret that is that the fond memories of my dad is still here but the deep wrenching pain of recalling his last few minutes of suffering has gone, if that makes sense.
 
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ViaCrucis

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No I don't think so, not when you marry it up with verses such as Rev 21:4-5. I can't remember where I read it but it was written somewhere that when we are finally in the dwelling place of God, the suffering and pain we experienced on earth will no longer be remembered because our focus is on Him.

Having gone through grief, the only way I can interpret that is that the fond memories of my dad is still here but the deep wrenching pain of recalling his last few minutes of suffering has gone, if that makes sense.

In Genesis we read about the story of the patriarch Joseph who was sold into slavery by his brothers, when a famine affects the land and Jacob and his children come to Egypt where grain has been stored, Joseph eventually reveals himself. He then tells his brothers this: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." (Genesis 50:20)

At the consummation of history, when the Lord has returned and God makes all things new, and we are there in that good future world in the Age to Come, wouldn't it make more sense that rather than God manipulating our memories that even our memories, and the grief and pain we knew of this life, will also be redeemed? Rather than erase our memories, gaslighting us, or otherwise manipulating us--God will instead allow us to see things as He does, and that even what was intended as evil by evil people in this life, God intended for the good.

After all, what does the Apostle say? "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)

It's not about God destroying, but healing. There is healing in God, healing in the redemption of all creation at the conclusion of all things--that in the new heavens and new earth there is restoration, healing, redemption, renewal.

God does not wipe away our tears by making us forget, but by healing us, and all our wounds. Because He is healing the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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In Genesis we read about the story of the patriarch Joseph who was sold into slavery by his brothers, when a famine affects the land and Jacob and his children come to Egypt where grain has been stored, Joseph eventually reveals himself. He then tells his brothers this: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." (Genesis 50:20)

At the consummation of history, when the Lord has returned and God makes all things new, and we are there in that good future world in the Age to Come, wouldn't it make more sense that rather than God manipulating our memories that even our memories, and the grief and pain we knew of this life, will also be redeemed? Rather than erase our memories, gaslighting us, or otherwise manipulating us--God will instead allow us to see things as He does, and that even what was intended as evil by evil people in this life, God intended for the good.

After all, what does the Apostle say? "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)

It's not about God destroying, but healing. There is healing in God, healing in the redemption of all creation at the conclusion of all things--that in the new heavens and new earth there is restoration, healing, redemption, renewal.

God does not wipe away our tears by making us forget, but by healing us, and all our wounds. Because He is healing the world.

-CryptoLutheran
Amen. This is by far a more eloquent way of conveying what was in my head :) The healing is so so important :)
 
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Dan1988

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This comes across as projection.



All I've done is challenge your private interpretation, pointed out that Scripture doesn't say what you want it to say, and to have you think more about your beliefs. This is apparently all that is necessary for you to make all kinds of wild and baseless accusations about me.



I mean, I can tell you about the God I believe in, it's the God which Christians have always believed in, He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel, He's the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And this is what I believe:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

I believe in Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord, begotten of the Father before all ages, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made; consubstantial with the Father. Through Him all things were made, and who for us men and for our salvation became flesh, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, and who rose on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures; who ascended into heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and whose kingdom will never end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], and who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, He has spoken by the prophets.

I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal life of the Age to Come.
Amen.

I worship one God in Trinity, Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the substance.

This is the universal faith of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran
I must apologize for ever doubting your faith, you have perfectly explained the Christian faith. So it's OK if you don't agree with my interpretation of that particular (non essential doctrine).

We can have different views on many things like eschatology and other things which can be understood in different ways. But those things you listed above are not negotiable, and I was really pleased to read them.

Now I should have made it clear that what I said about God wiping our memory of our unsaved loved ones way in the next life, is my view. This is what I believe God will do out of love for us, I personally can't see God allowing us to mourn over them forever.

I didn't know how to put it in any other terms so I used the computer hard drive analogy, but that not to say that God will use that particular method. Maybe He will give us a Christ like sense of righteousness and justice, which would cause us to see them as He sees them and thus we wouldn't mourn.

So I don't know what method He will use, but I trust He will wipe away every tear and the memory of the former pain and suffering away.

I spoke to my pastor about this and he said the bible is not clear about this, so we can't hold a firm position regarding it.
 
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SubjectObject

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Do our dogs, cats primarily, plus other much loved pets, go to heaven?
It may seem a trivial question but to a person whose dog or cat has died, it is extremely important.
In everything i say and do, i need to bring souls to Christ, start them on their journey to salvation. A vague answer to a person's questions is not good enough. A person grieving for their dead dog needs comfort and surety. If i as a Christian do not supply it, they may go elsewhere, such as a spiritualist church or a medium. Driven by grief. I have a dog, i have been through the deaths of previous dogs. She means a huge amount to me with her huge love.

So, i am not going to ever tell anyone that animals have no soul, no place to rest after this life.
So what is the Christian understanding of animal souls and afterlife? A straight answer which could be what brings a human soul to Christ.
God loves his animals, Isaiah 11 6 referring to after the second advent of Christ: KJV Isaiah 11 :6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." included are Wolf which are canines and Lions which are felines, there you have it spiritual animals dwelling with God and with us in our spiritual bodies. “ little child ” in the manuscripts reads a young person, and those that are there will be forever young
 
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