TribulationSigns

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I understand you take a Symbolist approach to revelation. You connect these symbols to a wide range of biblical references in a voluminous exposee as in your link. My view is essentially false in your view because of its literalism which you believe is not the way that scripture works and explains itself.

Correct! Not I, but God said:

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


My disagreement with this approach is bible wide. God speaks in history at definite moments and places and through persons.

I think you misunderstood. All the "literal" events in the Old Testament are only an example for our understanding of the New Testament. It doe snot means that the prophecies for the New Testament will be literal in nature too. You have same blindness of the Old Testament Jews who are looking for literal kingdom, city, throne, war, etc.

Revelation 11:3-13 specifies 2 men in a definite location which has to be Jerusalem as Jesus was cruicified in no other city

The link I provided comes with Scripture that obviously refutes your position. God is not talking about the physical city of Jerusalem on the pile of dirt in the Middle East, but the church which spiritually symbolically Jerusalem in the New Testament where Christ is now a chief cornerstone. The church is the holy temple of the New Testament that is where prophecies will be about! Selah!

Ephesians 2:19-22 KJV
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
 
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tranquil

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I just read the two chapters, but must admit am struggling to see an obvious connection. Can you explain how these passages connect to 2 witnesses

Revelation 11:1-4
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court
outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the
holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will
prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the
earth.​

Zechariah 2:1-2
And I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, a man with a measuring line in his hand! 2 Then I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see what is its
width and what is its length.
”​
[...]
Zechariah 3
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and
Satan[a] standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD
rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand
plucked from the fire?” 3 Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy
garments. 4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy
garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.
”​

Zechariah 4
3 And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”
4 And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who
talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my
lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor
by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts. 7 Who are you, O great mountain? Before
Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of
‘Grace, grace to it!’”
[...]

12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive
trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?” 13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
Also note, 'Joshua' is the same name as 'Jesus'/ 'Yeshua'.

It's important because of the timing elements associated with them. They are given power on 24 Kislev (Haggai 2:18-24). When you add 1260 days to that (plus the 3.5 days of lying dead in Revelation 11:11) you get to 17 Iyyar which is the '1st day of Noah's Flood' (17th day of the 2nd month in Genesis 7:11) (in the context of Matthew 24:37-44).

Also, when you go through the time elements of Daniel 9 & 12 (starting from the establishment of the state of Israel), you get
Dec 21, 2020 as the abomination of desolation
Add 1335 days to get to Aug 17, 2024
Add a literal 70 weeks to 'finish the transgression' (technically exactly 69 weeks) to that to get to 24 Kislev again (dusk Dec 13, 2025): the 'major Earthquake' associated with Haggai 2 becomes the 7th Bowl of wrath.

20 The word of the Lord came a second time to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I am about to shake the heavens and the earth, 22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms. I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.”

the 2 witnesses time would go from 24 kislev, 2021 (dusk Nov 27, 2021) to dusk May 10, 2025, then they lie dead for 3.5 days until May 14, 2025 (the 77th solar anniversary of Israel). Dusk May 14, 2025 is 17 Iyyar, the aforementioned '1st day of Noah's flood' referenced in Genesis 7:11. When you add 9 months (270 days) to Aug 17, 2024 you get to May 14, 2025 - the 9 months 'birth' referenced in Revelation 12.

Zerubabbel getting anointed ties in with the anointing in Daniel 9's 70 weeks prophecy.
 
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mindlight

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Revelation 11:1-4
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court
outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the
holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will
prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the
earth.​

Zechariah 2:1-2
And I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, a man with a measuring line in his hand! 2 Then I said, “Where are you going?” And he said to me, “To measure Jerusalem, to see what is its
width and what is its length.
”​
[...]
Zechariah 3
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and
Satan[a] standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD
rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand
plucked from the fire?” 3 Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy
garments. 4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy
garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.
”​

Zechariah 4
3 And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”
4 And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who
talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my
lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor
by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts. 7 Who are you, O great mountain? Before
Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of
‘Grace, grace to it!’”
[...]

12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive
trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?” 13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
Also note, 'Joshua' is the same name as 'Jesus'/ 'Yeshua'.

It's important because of the timing elements associated with them. They are given power on 24 Kislev (Haggai 2:18-24). When you add 1260 days to that (plus the 3.5 days of lying dead in Revelation 11:11) you get to 17 Iyyar which is the '1st day of Noah's Flood' (17th day of the 2nd month in Genesis 7:11) (in the context of Matthew 24:37-44).

Also, when you go through the time elements of Daniel 9 & 12 (starting from the establishment of the state of Israel), you get
Dec 21, 2020 as the abomination of desolation
Add 1335 days to get to Aug 17, 2024
Add a literal 70 weeks to 'finish the transgression' (technically exactly 69 weeks) to that to get to 24 Kislev again (dusk Dec 13, 2025): the 'major Earthquake' associated with Haggai 2 becomes the 7th Bowl of wrath.

20 The word of the Lord came a second time to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I am about to shake the heavens and the earth, 22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms. I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.”

the 2 witnesses time would go from 24 kislev, 2021 (dusk Nov 27, 2021) to dusk May 10, 2025, then they lie dead for 3.5 days until May 14, 2025 (the 77th solar anniversary of Israel). Dusk May 14, 2025 is 17 Iyyar, the aforementioned '1st day of Noah's flood' referenced in Genesis 7:11. When you add 9 months (270 days) to Aug 17, 2024 you get to May 14, 2025 - the 9 months 'birth' referenced in Revelation 12.

Zerubabbel getting anointed ties in with the anointing in Daniel 9's 70 weeks prophecy.

Loads of biblical meat in that post but disagree that precise dates can be drawn out of this. The day and the hour are unknown. I believe the Two witnesses will be told when to start not be able to work it out from the text we have all had for 2000 years+

Also sceptical that the similar measuring activity of Joshua and Zerrubabel can be so easily related to that of two witnesses. First and foremost cause it was John who was told to go measure not the two witnesses.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Based on view that they did not die and Hebrews says each man is appointed to live once and then die?

Appointed to live once? Read the context and the verse carefully.

Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
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tranquil

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Loads of biblical meat in that post but disagree that precise dates can be drawn out of this. The day and the hour are unknown. I believe the Two witnesses will be told when to start not be able to work it out from the text we have all had for 2000 years+

Also sceptical that the similar measuring activity of Joshua and Zerrubabel can be so easily related to that of two witnesses. First and foremost cause it was John who was told to go measure not the two witnesses.

You asked in question 6 of the OP
6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?​

Satan is not trying to change the script - he is / will fulfill it to the letter. He is using prophecy to give himself the appearance of fulfilling prophecy to make himself look holy.

That's why the fulfillment of prophecy will not be just a random date, which is normally what people assume. And prophecy is written to accommodate a faulty interpretation so as to facilitate the separation of the wheat & tares.
 
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BABerean2

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In Revelation 11:3-13 there is an account of two male witnesses that will stand in a Jerusalem under judgment for her sins and overrun by gentiles. This occurs during the reign of the AntiChrist and the general oppression of that city by a global gentile order. These witnesses (symbolised by lampstands and olive trees) will stand like an island of Light and Life in a city of darkness and they will testify to Christ during a period of 42 months (3.5 Jewish years of 360 days). This witness occurs at a time when evil is given free reign for the time set for it. They appear similar in character to Moses and Elijah. They are clothed in Sackcloth and their message appears to be one of judgment and a call to repentance in expectation of the Returning King of Kings Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God equips them for this testimony giving them various powers that echo OT powers given to prophets there:

1) fire comes from their mouth and devours their enemies: (2 Kings 1)
2) They have power to shut up the sky so that it does not rain while they prophesy (1 Kings 17:1)
3) They have power to turn waters into blood (Exodus 7:17-21)
4) They have powers to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want

The devil is furious at them and the damage that their witness does to his plans. These witnesses though supernaturally powerful are not conquerors and are ultimately martyred like Jesus was also in this city. They are overpowered after the 42 months by the Beast that comes out of the Abyss
He just leaves their bodies in the street ( an effort at shaming them and what they stood for) where they are viewed by people from all over the world. Burial is refused them as these wicked people just want to gloat. This because the prophets had tormented them. The martyrdom of these prophets stands as a symbol of a worldwide attempt to crush the church but the temporary exultation of the evil people at their apparent victory over the church is shortlived.
3.5 days after dying the breath of God enters these witnesses and they stand up striking terror into those who were watching
A loud voice from heaven says "Come up here" and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud with their enemies watching
Then there is a severe earthquake that collapses 1/10th of the city killing 7000 people
Fear grips the survivors who glorify God.

I have some questions about this passage:

1) To what extent are the 7 trumpets, 7 seals and 7 bowls judgments coordinated by these witnesses. Or do the judgments called down by the witnesses operate on an independent path?

2) Do you think they are Moses and Elijah or someone else, why? What would be the qualification for such a witness, who or what kind of person would God choose for this role?

3) Why does God give them these 4 powers: fire to annihilate enemies, control of weather in the air, ability to turn water into blood, ability to strike the earth and human biology with plagues

4) To what extent do you think that the AntiChrist will be able to control the news feed from these 2 witnesses, will only the people of Jerusalem be able to hear their message?

5) Maybe a silly question, but how do they eat and drink at a time when there is no water, go to the toilet and sleep in such a highly public scenario. I doubt if the surrounding authorities would be that cooperative.

6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

7) Do you have an alternate reading of Rev 11:3-11


Who are the two witnesses based on Revelation 11:4, and Romans 11:24, and Revelation 1:20?

Are they two men made of wood, and metal?


.
 
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Berean Tim

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You are referring to Luke 23 and Acts 1 which both refer to angels not human witnesses. This is clarified in Luke 23:24 and in Acts 1 by fact that apostles did not recognise Moses and Elijah whom they had already met at transfiguration
The word in messenger it can be either. Luke records it as men
 
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mindlight

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Here is a very interesting take on the two witness and their identity

Watched through that thanks. The video brought the text alive even if i did not agree with some of what he said.

The references to the two olive trees and lampstands could be to 2 communities, church and Hebrews as he argues or simply identifying markers of the witnesses themselves as Jewish Christians. We are grafted into ONE vine and his interpretation puts too great a divide between those saved as Jews or Gentiles

He dodges the phrase , "the city in which the Lord was cruicified" which ties the city to Jerusalem in his effort to draw an analogy with the great city elsewhere in Revelation, a symbol of a corrupt world order.

He suggests that all Christians of this tribulation period will be witnesses on a par with the power shared here.But this was not the experience of the earrlychurch where miracle workers were apostles anda few others and not all believers

The Bodies lie in the street of a specific city with figurative associations with corruption and immorality but nonetheless identified as a literal place by the cruicifixion,a literal historical event. There is no reason to say 1260 days is 3.5 years and then do the same with 3.5 days. The more likely interpretation is of actual bodies, gloated over which rise after 3.5 days. The effort to interpret by association of other uses of same words in scripture has led to licence in interpretation which has more to do with justifying a broader assumed theology than with what the text actually says

He makes me more inclined to believe these 2 individual witnesses were Jewish Christians as they would then represent both olive trees and lampstands.
 
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mindlight

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Appointed to live once? Read the context and the verse carefully.

Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It does not say all men. It was not Gods original intention that men should die, it was a punishment inflicted for sin, and two men at least never did die. There is no requirement given that Christ died for our sins on cross that all men must experience death.

If there is no necessity that all men must die then Enoch and Elijah, as the only men in scripture who have been identified as not dying, do not have to be the witnesses.
 
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mindlight

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You asked in question 6 of the OP
6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?​

Satan is not trying to change the script - he is / will fulfill it to the letter. He is using prophecy to give himself the appearance of fulfilling prophecy to make himself look holy.

That's why the fulfillment of prophecy will not be just a random date, which is normally what people assume. And prophecy is written to accommodate a faulty interpretation so as to facilitate the separation of the wheat & tares.

Interesting take, Satan the fake, loads the true words of God with self glorifying interpretation but trusts the sequence and uses its reliable structure.
 
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mindlight

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Correct! Not I, but God said:

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.




I think you misunderstood. All the "literal" events in the Old Testament are only an example for our understanding of the New Testament. It doe snot means that the prophecies for the New Testament will be literal in nature too. You have same blindness of the Old Testament Jews who are looking for literal kingdom, city, throne, war, etc.



The link I provided comes with Scripture that obviously refutes your position. God is not talking about the physical city of Jerusalem on the pile of dirt in the Middle East, but the church which spiritually symbolically Jerusalem in the New Testament where Christ is now a chief cornerstone. The church is the holy temple of the New Testament that is where prophecies will be about! Selah!

Ephesians 2:19-22 KJV
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus literally died on cross in Jerusalem , that pile of dirt you mentioned in the middle east.

Jesus literally rose from the dead

It is a literal expectation that Jesus will return.

A proper interpretation of scripture requires the discernment to determine when the language references literal events, places and people and when it is speaking figuratively. In this text Revelation 11 we are told that the words Egypt and Sodom are used figuratively while the city in which Jesus was crucified ties the verse to a specific place.

There is too much licence in your use of associations and symbols and too much of a disconnect with described biblical realities
 
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TribulationSigns

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Jesus literally died on cross in Jerusalem , that pile of dirt you mentioned in the middle east.

Jesus literally rose from the dead

It is a literal expectation that Jesus will return.

A proper interpretstion of scripture requires the discernment to determine when the language references literal events, places and people and when it is speaking figuratively. In this text Revelation 11 we are told that the words Egypt and Sodom are used figuratively while the city in which Jesus was cruicified ties the verse to a specific place.

There is too much licence in your use of associations and symbols and too much of a disconnect with described biblical realities

No, you do NOT have correct proper interpretation because you did not even compare Scripture with Scripture. Revelation 11 is not talking about a physical temple in the physical city. God is talking about His New Testament Congregation, the Holy City of the New Testament. Not Jerusalem in the Middle East.

Revelation 11:4-8 KJV
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Two olive trees and Two Candlesticks symbolize the Church which is the earthly representation of Christ. Remember The rule of sound hermeneutics, "The Bible is its own interpreter." You must not start with preconceived ideas about what it signifies, and search out the pertinent Scripture, it is not long before we see that the Olive Tree is indeed used by God to symbolize the Church, the New Testament Israel. Check yourself out with Hosea 14.

Hosea 14:5-7 KJV
[5] I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
[6] His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
[7] They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.

Christ (He) is Israel of God and the children of God who dwell under the shadow of THIS tree will have no scorching sun on them. When we are in Christ, we are like a green olve tree in the house of the Lord, Psalms 52:8. This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. Therefore, we are the Olive tree BECAUSE Christ "IS" this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. This is why the Gentile nations are grafted into THIS New Covenant Israrel, which is symbolized by the Olive Tree:

Romans 11:17 KJV
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Clearly! God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted in. For example, we, join with Paul, and the Apostles into Chirst, the TRUE ISRAEL of God, Ephesians 2:11-19), which this covenant tree merely represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and its is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the believing Jews) according to the promised made to Israel.

Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

Zechariah 4:2-6 KJV
[2] And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[3] And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[4] So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[5] Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Lampstands and olive trees stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrating what we've been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth.

Zechariah 4:14 KJV
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

1 John 2:27 KJV
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So we have seen from God's Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

We, Christians, are the Two Witnesses as God defined it. Not two men. We spew fire out of our mouth. It is not what you think it is. Please check with Scripture yourself on what God actually means by this.

Jeremiah 5:14 KJV
[14] Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

The Gospel, Word of God, comes out of our mouth as fire, as a witness upon those who reject the Gospel.

Now the city is the church, the New Testament representative of God's Kingdom on earth. The Lord was crucified was just outside the great city Jerusalem. He is talking about where Two Witnesses will be killed, in the external church! This great city Jerusalem is the representation of the church which is this city of the great king. It is not the indivisible city itself, but the EXTERNAL COVENANT CHURCH is the earthly representation of the city of peace. This is WHERE true witnesses (two witnesses) of God dwelled and prophesied. What city is this? Check with Scripture yourself!

Matthew 5:35 KJV
[35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Galatians 4:26 KJV
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Revelation 21:10 KJV
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

All believers are residents of 'that great city' Jerusalem, and the external covenant church is the earthly representation of that Holy City. When Jesus spoke saying, 'ye are the light of the world, a city that is set on an hill cannot be hid,' He was talking of the Church equating it to a city. The Church reigning on earth is the representation of this great city of light which Christ spoke about.

Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure, or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritually' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in the bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

Selah.

Now, let see if you do your homework and come back with biblical rebuttal with SCRIPTURE, not personal opinions. Let hear this out from you else your interpretation of Revelation 11 is fatal flawed.
 
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fwGod

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5) Maybe a silly question, but how do they eat and drink at a time when there is no water, go to the toilet and sleep in such a highly public scenario. I doubt if the surrounding authorities would be that cooperative.
I don't mean to insult you and here follows the but.. you must not have been paying attention to what you posted. They can make fire come out of their mouth. So would you stand in their way and be burned quicker than a dried out autumn leaf?

They'd also be surrounded by and protected by angels as prophets of old have been. Able to do the miracles of the prophets of old.

They'd eat at their leisure, drink purified water by using cedar as was done in the old testament, and find natures toilet and water it without fear of being caught with their pants down.

How would they sleep? They'd put blood at their doorposts like what was done on Passover. Or if not, the angels would be encamped around them. They'd sleep like babies with no enemies to invade.

They are untouchable by the devil (1 Jhn.5:18), which would include the antichrist, and any people under his influence. They will enjoy the rare that is in the word of God for every believer. But who of us have called for them to work for us?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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In Revelation 11:3-13 there is an account of two male witnesses that will stand in a Jerusalem under judgment for her sins and overrun by gentiles. This occurs during the reign of the AntiChrist and the general oppression of that city by a global gentile order. These witnesses (symbolised by lampstands and olive trees) will stand like an island of Light and Life in a city of darkness and they will testify to Christ during a period of 42 months (3.5 Jewish years of 360 days). This witness occurs at a time when evil is given free reign for the time set for it. They appear similar in character to Moses and Elijah. They are clothed in Sackcloth and their message appears to be one of judgment and a call to repentance in expectation of the Returning King of Kings Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God equips them for this testimony giving them various powers that echo OT powers given to prophets there:

1) fire comes from their mouth and devours their enemies: (2 Kings 1)
2) They have power to shut up the sky so that it does not rain while they prophesy (1 Kings 17:1)
3) They have power to turn waters into blood (Exodus 7:17-21)
4) They have powers to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want

The devil is furious at them and the damage that their witness does to his plans. These witnesses though supernaturally powerful are not conquerors and are ultimately martyred like Jesus was also in this city. They are overpowered after the 42 months by the Beast that comes out of the Abyss
He just leaves their bodies in the street ( an effort at shaming them and what they stood for) where they are viewed by people from all over the world. Burial is refused them as these wicked people just want to gloat. This because the prophets had tormented them. The martyrdom of these prophets stands as a symbol of a worldwide attempt to crush the church but the temporary exultation of the evil people at their apparent victory over the church is shortlived.
3.5 days after dying the breath of God enters these witnesses and they stand up striking terror into those who were watching
A loud voice from heaven says "Come up here" and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud with their enemies watching
Then there is a severe earthquake that collapses 1/10th of the city killing 7000 people
Fear grips the survivors who glorify God.

I have some questions about this passage:

1) To what extent are the 7 trumpets, 7 seals and 7 bowls judgments coordinated by these witnesses. Or do the judgments called down by the witnesses operate on an independent path?

2) Do you think they are Moses and Elijah or someone else, why? What would be the qualification for such a witness, who or what kind of person would God choose for this role?

3) Why does God give them these 4 powers: fire to annihilate enemies, control of weather in the air, ability to turn water into blood, ability to strike the earth and human biology with plagues

4) To what extent do you think that the AntiChrist will be able to control the news feed from these 2 witnesses, will only the people of Jerusalem be able to hear their message?

5) Maybe a silly question, but how do they eat and drink at a time when there is no water, go to the toilet and sleep in such a highly public scenario. I doubt if the surrounding authorities would be that cooperative.

6) Given that the beast can probably read and knows that this is his scheduled moment why does he not simply try and change the script and burn up the bodies for instance. Why does evil do as it is told in this scenario?

7) Do you have an alternate reading of Rev 11:3-11
Where do you read two MALE witnesses?
The traditional interpretation is that these two witnesses are Christ and the Church (the true believers known only by God). Jesus opens in Revelation 1:5 that He is the faithful witness. The Church as witnesses can be found recorded in various places...Acts 1:8 , Mark 13:9 as well as many others.
The picture language of Revelation is both figurative and riddle-like in nature all brought to light by the other Scriptures.
 
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mindlight

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Did some reading on church tradition regarding what views existed in the history of the church and how people justified these regarding the identity of the two witnesses. In Hebrew scriptures 2 witnesses are needed to identify the truth of a matter, which may also be why Jesus sent out his disciple teams two by two.

1) ENOCH & ELIJAH: This is actually the strongest view in tradition with ECFs like Ireneaus, Tertullian and Hippolytus of Rome in support. There is also an apocryphal book Gospel of Nicodemus (Acts of Pilate) that says this.

2) MOSES & ELIJAH: Or law and the prophets. Based on view that Moses could turn water into blood and sent the plagues of Egypt. This view was favoured by Left Behind series

3) GROUPS - CHURCH & ISRAEL: There are 2 versions: just church and church and Israel. Just church seems to be a relatively recent Protestant view shared by people like Matthew Henry, John Wesley, John Gill. But I cannot find any prominent ECFs or recent theologians/commentators who go for the church and Israel view. Maybe someone can find one for me.

4) ST PETER & ST PAUL: As the two most prominent witnesses of the early church and both having died in Rome, a lot of Catholics like this one. But would involve them both dying twice

5) UNKNOWN 2 persons: This is the view I favour as I believe the bible would name them if they were people from before. Also John would have recognised Moses, Elijah, Peter or Paul having met them all before. Also as with John the Baptist who came in the spirit of Elijah it does not seem necessary for biblical figures to repeat their ministries and in a way distracts from Gods glory if only Moses can call down plagues for instance. Also I think the witness of the two witnesses is a new and unique ministry that requires two new people.
 
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Psalm 27

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Yes that is the positive affirmation that like Jesus both men fasted 40 days. But it does not affirm them as THE two witnesses and if this is the criteria that other potential candidates also did an unmentioned 40 day fast
I recently read somewhere that the two witnesses (of revelation) will be akin to Enoch and Elijah?
 
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I recently read somewhere that the two witnesses (of revelation) will be akin to Enoch and Elijah?

Thst seems to be strongest view in tradition ( see above post). But it depends on a reading of Hebrews 9 as implying a necessity to death. God is not bound by our reading of necessity and Christs sacrifice on the cross has rendered the necessity of death redundant as the punishment of our sins. Otherwise every believer still alive when Christ returns would have to die before saying hi to Jesus.
 
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