Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

Marilyn C

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Jesus Christ "IS" Israel, that we grafted into it...in Him. Not national Israel. Once the building of the church is finished, there will not be any more salvation after this. Therefore, there won't be national salvation for national Israel in the Middle East in the future as premillennialists believe. Sorry.

Jesus is before Israel and it is only part of God`s great plan & purpose for every realm in His kingdom to come under the authority of His Son.

To make us Israel is saying that God made a mistake and that His working with an earthly nation was in vain.

Of course there is salvation after the Body of Christ is gone. God`s hand is not so short that He cannot save people in the trib and the millennium.

The Body of Christ is NOT the centre of God`s purposes BUT Christ is.
 
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Marilyn C

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If read in context, we find that it was not revealed to the "sons of men" in the past, by now it is revealed to His holy "apostles", and "prophets" PLURAL, not singular as in only Paul.

`How that by revelation He made known to me the mystery;....which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs and of the SAME BODY; and partakers of His promise in Christ...` (Eph. 3: 3 - 6)


The text does not say what you are claiming.


.

Yes the revelation was revealed to other ascension apostles and prophets AFTER the apostle Paul first received it as God`s word says.

`How that by revelation He (Christ) made known to ME (Paul) the mystery...` (Eph. 3: 3)
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi Dave,

The kingdom rule of Christ over Israel is but one of the Lord`s many kingships.


Remember Jesus when with His disciples did not speak to them concerning the Body of Christ, just that He was going to build His `called out ones.` The disciples only knew of the Lord`s coming rule over Israel. They did not know of the Body of Christ as that revelation was first given to the apostle Paul. Peter even tried to get the Gentile believers to act like Jews. Paul had to rebuke him. (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)

Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:25-36).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Some Premillennialists try to explain away this clear passage that confirms Christ assumed David’s throne at the resurrection by arguing that the throne referred to in Acts 2:30 is not David’s throne, but the Father’s throne. But are they right? The passage in question states: “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ.” What they seem to miss is that this is talking about Christ’s humanity and not His deity. This passage is demonstrating how “according to the flesh” (or as a man) He fulfilled the Davidic expectation and consequently took David’s Messianic throne.

Christ taking David’s throne does not refer to Him sitting on some long-preserved literal physical in the Middle East (as non-believing Jews and Premils apply this to in the future), but rather Him assuming heavenly authority over the people of God and fulfilling the Messianic prophecies as Israel’s true king. As we see in the New Testament, the people of God or true Israel does not relate exclusively to a physical race but to spiritual grace on God’s elect. Peter is showing that Christ now reigns over His people in fulfilment of the Old Testament predictions.

Peter made it clear that Christ was currently sitting by the right hand of God exalted.” He immediately demonstrated that this was the fulfilment of the Messianic hope. We see this in the fact he quotes Psalm 110 as part of his argument in Acts 2:34-35.

Peter ties up his whole argument in Acts 2:36 by saying: “let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Many miss the significance of this summing up by failing to grasp the importance of our Saviour’s titles. The title “Lord” here refers to His divine role as the “Son of God” whereas the title “Christ” relates to His Messianic office. He carries a dual kingship as king of kings and Lord of lords.

The English word “Christ” is interpreted from the Greek word Christos. This word interestingly derives from the word chrio, meaning ‘to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate / anoint to an office or religious service’. The Greek word Christos correlates with the Old Testament Hebrew word mashach meaning “anointed.”

I don't believe this means that there are two literal physical thrones but rather two aspects to His kingship – human over His new creation, and divine over all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship – He is both God and man. This does not in any way mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ's kingship - human and divine. As God Christ reigns over all creation; as Messiah He reigns over His new creation.

Jesus said in Revelation 22:16, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

This confession from Christ and this appellation describes both His humanity and His deity in the statement “root and the offspring of David.” In this reading, the Lord reveals a great mystery but yet also a great truth, how He is both before and after king David. (1) He is after David in the sense that He is of his natural “offspring” according to the flesh. However, equally, He is likewise before Him in that He is the spiritual “root of David” (Revelation 5:5, 22:16).

Christ existed before the incarnation. He was the eternal Son of God, and therefore before David. Jesus testified in John 6:62, “ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before.” The Lord testified in John 8:58, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus declared, in His great intercessory petition to His Father, in John 17:5, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Through these we understand the great mystery of the two aspects of Christ’s nature – His humanity and His deity.

We see Christ exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, in Matthew 22:42-46, when He asked, “What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Here He employs the Old Testament passage in Psalm 110:1 to impress His point. In His last question, Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity) – a truth that evidently perplexed the religious Pharisees. The religious Pharisees had absolutely no grasp of that great truth. They had no comprehension that He was both before and after David. The answer to the enquiry was that He was before David (being the root of David) in His divine office as the eternal Son of God; therefore, David called Him Lord. Nevertheless, He was also his offspring in a natural sense, through the incarnation at Bethlehem, and was therefore a son of David by way of lineage.

He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees. As man, He has assumed the throne of David, as God He has assumed the Father's throne. This is speaking about authority. He has totally fulfilled every demand as man and God and He therefore reigns on high upon the throne of David and His Father's throne.

It is clear from Matthew 22:42-46 that Christ applies this text to Himself thus rightly claiming the dualistic divine offices of king and of priest for Himself. It was still prior to His atoning death and glorious ascent to the throne, but He explicitly draws their eyes towards His person. In doing so, He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees.

A passage often overlooked on this subject is Romans 1:3-4, which declares, “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared (or exhibited) to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.”

Here we see the duality to the nature of Christ. He was the son of David, but also the Son of God. These two titles are knitted together in the one person. Once again, they see their apex in the resurrection of the Saviour. It does matter how partial one is in their Dispensationalism these passages are irrefutable. There can be no debate from these that Christ has already assumed David’s throne.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi Dave,

The kingdom rule of Christ over Israel is but one of the Lord`s many kingships.


Remember Jesus when with His disciples did not speak to them concerning the Body of Christ, just that He was going to build His `called out ones.` The disciples only knew of the Lord`s coming rule over Israel. They did not know of the Body of Christ as that revelation was first given to the apostle Paul. Peter even tried to get the Gentile believers to act like Jews. Paul had to rebuke him. (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)

Pretribbers need to think and search out the Word before they repeat what they have been taught. The Gospel embracing the Gentiles was a revelation made before there was even an Israel, the 12 tribes or before there was a Jew. This was a revelation given to Abraham in the book of Genesis.

It has always been God's plan that His glory would be seen throughout the whole earth. Time after time in the Old Testament the ancient seers foresaw it, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God spoke about the nations it was always in regard to salvation and global influence not mere real estate in the Middle East. The Old Testament prophets prophesied for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth.

Abraham

Genesis 12:1-3: “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

God in His Sovereignty had specially chosen Abraham to be the spiritual father of the faith. Through his wife Sarah he would receive a seed that would be blessed of all nations.

Gen 13:16 declares: “I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.”

Again in Genesis 17:5-6, God says, “a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

Genesis 18:18 says, “And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?”

Genesis 22:17-18: “in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

The spiritual blessing of Abraham is only spiritually realized in a spiritual seed. That spiritual seed pertains to God’s redeemed – all those since Abraham that have experienced God’s grace through saving faith. Whilst the, elect were largely contained within the natural seed of Abraham in the Old Testament that was branched out through and since Christ to embrace all nations. All those from throughout the nations who get saved become the children of Abraham and consequently partake in his covenant blessing. To apply the blessing of Abraham to the unregenerate is not only unscriptural but ludicrous.

These were spiritual promises to a spiritual people of all nations. Abraham and the Old Testament saints looked for the heavenly land, not some real estate in Palestine. Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Book says that "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country." This was talking about "the land of promise." The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another's, or not one's own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem.

The promise to Abraham and his seed was not merely a little strip of land in the Middle East, he and his Seed were promised the whole world, and all nations would be blessed by his Seed. Even when God made a covenant with Abraham it was not limited to one particular ethnic group or people but embraced all nations.

The references to the “nations” or “families of the earth” being “of” Abraham alludes to the global spread of the Gospel – post-Calvary. It is speaking of those of all nations who come to faith in Jesus Christ and enter His Church. It doesn’t in any way automatically indicate that every single person in every single nation be subjected to any specific blessing, but rather is used as a general term to describe a particular chosen people (the Church) from the many varying nations (all kindred’s and kinds) throughout the world.

His Wife

Genesis 17:15-21 records, “And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her … but my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”

Isaac

In Genesis 17:18-19 we learn, “And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."

Whilst Abraham had eight sons by three different women, God revealed that it would be Sarah's son Isaac that the physical and spiritual covenant would be continued. In the physical covenant to Isaac, the land was promised to Isaac and his seed. In the spiritual covenant, the Gentiles would one day be blessed.

The everlasting covenant is expressly realized in Isaac. He is the promised child. The elder natural son Ishmael was not counted as the inheritance. The inheritance goes to Isaac through Abraham. Undoubtedly Ishmael gets his own blessing, but the everlasting covenant is in Isaac.

Contrary to what most Dispies imagine, the true seed of Abraham – those that enjoy the favour and blessing of God are all those (irrespective of nationality) that have entered into salvation through faith in Christ. That was revealed to Abraham right back in the book of Genesis. The true seed of Abraham was always international in make-up. Whilst it was kept to a singular nation – natural Israel – in the old economy, when Christ (the Messiah came) it was widened out to include all the nations of the world. This was the fulfilment of God’s promise to Abraham many thousands of years ago.

After Abraham’s death, the LORD appeared unto his son Isaac, in Genesis 26:2-5, and confirmed the great hope of the Promised Land: “And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

Jacob

Isaac had two sons and God chose to confirm the covenant with Jacob only (Genesis 28:13‑15). In the confirmation of the covenant to Jacob, one specific provision was made: The Land is promised to both Jacob and Jacob's seed (28:13, 15). After that, it was confirmed through all of Jacob's twelve sons who fathered the twelve Tribes of Israel (Gen. 49).

Genesis 27:29 declares, “Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.”

This blessing was given to the one carrying the birthright. It was a spiritual blessing and was not made with Esau. Therefore, it relates to a spiritual seed not a natural seed.

Genesis 28:14 says, “And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”

Genesis 35:10-11: “And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jesus is before Israel and it is only part of God`s great plan & purpose for every realm in His kingdom to come under the authority of His Son.

To make us Israel is saying that God made a mistake and that His working with an earthly nation was in vain.

The Body of Christ is NOT the centre of God`s purposes BUT Christ is.

You really do not get it. The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

Of course there is salvation after the Body of Christ is gone. God`s hand is not so short that He cannot save people in the trib and the millennium.

Instead of constantly presenting these Dispy soundbites that have no basis in Scripture: how about actually showing us in Rev 20 where you get this stuff.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Guess I'm not cause I'm not Amill. :rolleyes: But the Jesus I believe in is Post-Trib and Pre-Mill.


The Glorious Return

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Really? Do you believe in supporting Scripture with Scripture to prove a biblical truth?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jesus Christ "IS" Israel, that we grafted into it...in Him. Not national Israel. Once the building of the church is finished, there will not be any more salvation after this. Therefore, there won't be national salvation for national Israel in the Middle East in the future as premillennialists believe. Sorry.

Right from the beginning, Christ was God’s promised seed. He was the elect one. He was the perfect personification of the divine blueprint for obedient servanthood and holy living. He was Israel’s ultimate prophet, priest and king. All others were a pale, imperfect and at times a corrupted representation of Him. The nation also habitually fell short of its mission to be a faithful witness of Yahweh. It fell short of its earthly calling through constant rebellion and repeated offence. Christ alone performed a service that no other creature could undertake. The prophet ably describes Him in Isaiah 42:1 as “My servant, whom I uphold, my elect one in whom I delight."

Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, and their taking of the Promised Land, gave them the autonomy they desired and needed. They were now independent of the bondage of slavery. But Israel as a national theocratic people only existed (in between Moses and Christ) as an earthly temporary prelude and foreshadowing of the coming Messiah and the creation of the new covenant arrangement – where no ethnic distinctions existed.

We see the same truth in Isaiah 49:1-6. There, the “servant” mentioned is identified in verse 1 as “Israel” (“Thou art my servant, O Israel”). But it is notable who the prophet addresses his message to. It is to the Gentiles: “Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far.” Also, this servant is responsible for bringing salvation to both Jews and Gentiles. He predicts: “It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth (v6). There can be little doubt through the wording that this alludes to Christ and His monumental first advent. Most commentators rightly acknowledge this to be a Messianic passage. Only Christ could fulfil such a monumental task.

Christ is the manifest embodiment of true Israel. Jesus is presented here in clear tones by the prophet Isaiah as true Israel, through whom salvation is experienced. Notably, that realization relates to both Jews and Gentiles. Israel is shown to be open to all who receive Jesus Christ. Christ is the representative head of the corporate spiritual body. This reminds us that true Israel is a spiritual designation pertaining to a spiritual people, who embrace the Messiah, wherever they are found.

The usage of the term “servant” is another example of biblical dualism. This description is applied to both the nation of Israel and the Messiah in the Old Testament. We see this especially in the prophetic book of Isaiah. In some texts the servant is Israel, in others it is a reference to the coming Messiah. Isaiah initially identifies God’s servant as Israel (41:8-9 & 44:1–2). He serves as God’s witness (43:10) and as a light to the Gentiles (9:2-7, 42:6 & 49:6). In other passages we have a record of the Messiah bringing Israel back to God (42:1, 49:6 & 53:11). The servant here is the Messiah. He is represented as the ultimate personification of the nation. But He didn’t come in military power, as many expected, but as a suffering servant (Isaiah 53:3-12, Daniel 9:24-26, Ezekiel 36:26-27, 37:26-28, Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Zechariah 12:10).

It is not just that He possessed all the spiritual attributes ascribed to Jacob (Israel), albeit in a perfected form, but Matthew shows (in Matthew 2:14-15) direct evidence that our Lord’s flight into the land Egypt and subsequent return to Palestine fulfills a prophecy recorded in Hosea 11:1 pertaining to Israel. Matthew 2:14-15 records of Joseph: “he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.”

Matthew essentially uses Israel’s history as a point of reference, and identification, between Israel and the nation’s Messiah. The apostle here spiritually connects the story of Jesus to the story of Israel, to give Israel’s history a new depth of meaning. National Israel serves a typology of Jesus Christ. What happened with God’s son (Israel), so it happened with God’s greater Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Dennis J. McCarthy suggests: “We have, then, an idea of father-son relationship which is essentially that of the covenant” (Old Testament Covenant).

Jesus the Messiah fulfilled all the conditions, hopes and expectations for ethic Israel. He did what they could never do. He lived a sinless life and thus perfectly fulfilled God’s holy law. He also died an atoning death on man’s behalf so that we could be reconciled unto an offended God. In doing so, He accomplished every righteous demand that the Father made of Him thus making Him faithful Israel. He was Israel’s representative. He was man’s advocate and substitute. He is the only one who ever kept God’s covenant perfectly, and He is the only one, on merit, who inherits the full blessings of God's covenant. He therefore unlocks all of the promises and blessings of God and shares them with His people. As true Israel, all those united to Him find their identity in Him.

Galatians 3:13-14 teaches: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

Verse 16 continues, “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Paul the Apostle looks back here to the covenant promise made with Abraham in Genesis and shows us who it applies to. Paul attributes the fulfilment of the promise to Christ, and not physical Israel. Our Savior is presented as the true seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16). Jesus the Messiah is the only seed of Abraham through whom the nations have been, and will be, blessed. Those who have put their faith in the Christ (the redeemed congregation) are presented here as Abraham’s offspring (Galatians 3:7 and Romans 4:11, 16). These include the people of God (Jew and Gentile) in both the Old Testament and the New Testament – all those who have put their trust in Jesus. There is no alternative explanation here!

The Messianic blessing for the entire world would come through the offspring of Abraham. The blessing promised to Abraham is centered on the person of Christ. Jesus has brought about the fulfillment of the covenant promise to Abraham. He is the realization of every single Old Testament covenant. God’s covenant with Abraham is to his seed (singular) not to his seeds (plural). And the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises to Abraham pertain is Christ. The nation of Israel and the old covenant arrangement that God made with them were ultimately a means to the end of furnishing us a Savior.

Israel took on a more nationalistic character under Moses. After years of living in the land of Egypt, the children of Israel grew to such a significant number as an ethnic people group that they became a serious threat to Egypt. The Hebrews had become so well established in Egypt, and were such a significant racial, political and cultural entity, that it was perceived by the Egyptians as an increasing liability. They had been in Egypt for generations, and had become so numerous, that Pharaoh feared them. He was concerned that the descendants of Jacob would keep expanding in number and strength and increasingly become a threat to Egypt’s security. He thus forced them to become his slaves and harshly punished them. Notwithstanding, at this stage they were still an ethnic group rather than an organized state.

While the overriding meaning of true Israel is spiritual, the term Israel took on a broader natural identity over the years. That name became a national designation for all those who belonged to the natural lineage of Abraham, who gave outward allegiance to Israel’s God, and were part of the visible assembly of the nation, whether by birth or personal choice. While Israel consisted overwhelmingly of the direct physical descendants of Abraham, many Gentiles who accepted Israel’s God and desired to become part of the covenant community were considered Israeli (see Isaiah 56:1-8 and Ezekiel 47:22–23). Christian Zionists Monte Judah and Eddie Chumney even admit: “Together, the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob along with the mixed multitude are called the house of Jacob (Exodus 19:3).”

To be viewed as a natural Israeli, men were required to be circumcised as an outward sign of loyalty to the living God and also commit to the old covenant ceremonial arrangement. This was a visible proof of submission and obedience. But this did not automatically equate to a real inward spiritual relationship, and therefore participation in true spiritual Israel – the redeemed of God. Old Testament Scriptures shows that there were many unbelievers who abode within the national covenant. There was always a visible congregation of outward professing Israelis, and an invisible community of true elect believers – the faithful remnant. This is confirmed in Romans 9:6. The visible community related to those who outwardly gave allegiance to the Jewish religion, including its traditions, feasts, and temple ordinances. The visible assembly contains both believers and nonbelievers. The invisible community was the sum total of the elect in Israel, who were spiritually transformed and truly known of God.

We should never forget, Israel was never intended to be an exclusive ethnic club. This is seen by the many Gentiles that became part of Israel under the old covenant. God always intended Israel to be a spiritual entity that would reach the nations. Christ (true Israel) was man’s only hope of salvation. Since His earthly life, the Gospel went out to all nations, seeing countless Gentiles ushered into an intimate covenant relationship with the Messiah. Israel was ordained to become a massive international family.

The Bible student should pause and recognize that Christ was, and is, the center-point of human existence. He was the only one qualified to take man’s sinful hand and reconcile him to a holy God. He is not just the New Testament Savior, He was also the Old Testament Savior. In Matthew 22:42 Jesus asked the religious Pharisees: “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity) – a truth that evidently perplexed the religious Pharisees. They had no comprehension that He was both before and after David. The answer to the enquiry was that He was before David (being the source of David) in His divine office as the eternal Son of God; therefore, David called Him Lord. Jesus was not just “the offspring of David,” he was also “the root” of David (Revelation 22:12-16).

We see the international scope of the salvation plan in God’s promise to Jacob in Genesis 35:10-11: “And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.”

After changing his natural name to a spiritual name, God immediately predicted that nations will be of Israel (gôy and qâhâl gôy). The Hebrew word qâhâl means assembly, company, congregation, multitude. This literal describes a nation (natural Israel) and a congregation of nations (spiritual Israel). Clearly, the integration of the Gentiles into Israel was God’s ultimate plan from the very beginning.

Isaiah 27:6 declares: “He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.”

According to Holy Writ, those who become part of Israel will assuredly take root. There is clearly a sense of enjoinment in this text. Israel would decisively expand her influence throughout the globe. She would likewise be fruitful. This is talking about a worldwide community of believers. Those who have received Christ have taken spiritual root and have consequently blossomed throughout the nations.

When you consider the meaning of the word “Israel” and how it ultimately finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ, it forces us to ask, what people, then, today, could possibly meet the criteria and designation of true Israel? It has to be a spiritual people, because that is, ultimately, the core sense of the word. But it also must be a company that recognizes, identifies and embraces Christ (true Israel). That certainly isn’t natural Israel over this past 2000 years. It was them that rejected Him and nailed Him to a tree. What is more, this company is not limited to the Middle East but is rather expressly found throughout “the world” (Isaiah 27:6) and relates to “a company of nations” (Genesis 35:10-11).

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people (of all nations), the New Testament congregation. Only they can meet the description. They alone belong to Christ. Only they are His ambassadors on this earth. Only they enjoy favor with God and with man. Scripture proves that Gentile believers would be thoroughly blended into the harmonious whole of faithful Israel. This is supported many Old Testament prophecies that tells us that Israel will be enjoined by others and will incorporate the nations. This is talking about the full spiritual expanse of true Israel. If one is in Christ they belong to spiritual Israel.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Many reject the gospel of the Kingdom Jesus and the disciples preached and replace it with the Millennial Kingdom of the Pharisees. How can you separate a king from his kingdom and still have a king? How can you embrace the Pharisee's Millennial Kingdom and not have their version of the Messiah?
The Jews do not think God can be a man. And of course we know Jesus is God incarnate. The Jews expect a king to bring peace and judge the world but do not expect it to be God incarnate. The king that the Jews expect can be God incarnate and fulfill all those expectation along with bringing Israel into the new covenant at that time. If you look at all the before and after details of when the kingdom comes you will see a substantial change from the last 2000 years of world history. The idea of the kingdom of God being spiritual and actually coming to the earth are not mutually exclusive ideas.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

So in this passage when the throne of David is established there is judgement and justice from that time forever.

You have a hard time proving that there judgment and justice has been established. The throne of David in Jer 3 is called the throne of the LORD because Jesus is LORD. I know you are very set in your beliefs but I see the literal fulfillment of these verses coming in the future and all the promises to national Israel will be fulfilled too. I am not a pharisee and I believe that Dan 7 is literal and future so is Dan 9 Zech 14 and many many other places where the before and after picture is covered. You can talk about the new covenant all you want and I agree it is established and so too will Israel be grafted back into it. All the before and after pictures give great detail and so many specifics that an allegorical approach is not consistent. The events are future and is you took time to isolate the many specifics that futurist hold you will see current events following those specifics like a dot to dot picture.
 
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Timtofly

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The Jews were wrong in their expectation. They missed it. They had the same faulty hyper-literal expectation of an earthly ethnic territorial political system that Premils have today. Premils are simply repeating the error of history. They rejected Christ's spiritual kingdom and it was redirected to the Gentiles. Millions of Gentiles have now entered that kingdom by faith.

The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an earthly ethnic territorial political system. The kingdom He spoke of was spiritual and heavenly. This did not fit in with their carnal expectation. Sadly, Premils still seek after such a faulty expectation in order to justify their flawed future hope. What is more, the natural, physical, earthly ceremonial aspects of the old covenant are obliterated in the New Testament by the new covenant reality. This was presented by the legalistic religious Jewish leaders as evidence of Christ phony credentials.

I believe Premils make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees did with their belief of an earthly political kingdom and a physical material throne of David. Christ is not coming to reign for a thousand yrs over a subjugated bunch of rebels, He is Coming to destroy the wicked.

The reality is, one needs eyes to see in order to grasp the spiritual, heavenly and eternal nature of the kingdom. Jesus told us that. Unfortunately, the hyper-literalist Judaizing Pharisees did not see this with their misguided hyper-literal racist physical carnal earthly kingdom. Premil makes the same mistake. The Pharisaic expectation was completely different from God’s plan. Christ brought a spiritual heavenly kingdom to this earth not a physical natural kingdom as some imagined from their understanding of Old Testament readings.

Premil does not take text, context, and co-text into consideration. They force their hyper-literal pretext into all Scripture. The Pharisees did the same and look how that worked out for them. They misunderstood, misapplied and misinterpreted the First Advent, the kingdom and kingship of Christ.

Premil explains away clear and repeated NT Scripture with their opinion of typical and obscure OT Scripture.
Can you prove there is one pre-mil Jew alive today? There may be some in the church deceived into wanting a pre-mil kingdom, but what is a pre-mill kingdom if the king does not return until after the kingdom is over?

The church is not going to be on earth for the Millennium. That is the error, not that a Millennium does not exist, that is the amil error. Athiest = no God. Amil = God does not get the Sabbath of Revelation 20. It is not about the church going overboard in one direction, so we go to the opposite extreme.

Satan deceived the world with evolution and a 14 billion year old universe. So we get athiest who cannot explain the God of the Bible. No one 2000 years ago was claiming John was a Pharisee or pre-mill heretic, because he put chapter 20 into Revelation. Nor was the early church to even look for an earthly kingdom. Were there Pharisees in the 2nd century church? Did all of 2nd century church think the Second Coming happened 70 years ago? People should think before they jump to so many conclusions.

Preterist claim all has happened thus their 1000 years happened as well. They have nothing in Revelation.

Why would Revelation 20 be in the past at all? Amil in this forum avoid that question like the plague. Revelation was about one and only one climactic Second Coming. One that gets interrupted by Satan. If it is not interrupted by Satan explain why Revelation 13 claims there is one. The final harvest starts after the church is removed. The church is not harvested. Paul said it is caught up, not cut down.

The canon of the NT that included Revelation was used by a church that viewed the whole book as future. It was not about dispensations. It was not about recapping the next indefinite period of time over and over. No early church writer ever interpretated Revelation with their current conditions as fulfillment. They may have tried to come up with their own private interpretation, but they were not spirit led interpretations that would change nor explain future history. Nor could any one explain Revelation until they saw it happen before their own eyes. That has always been the view of Revelation unless private interpretation as heresy did creep in. But using heresy to change whole concepts in Revelation is just as much heretical as every other private interpretation over the last 1990 years. If people here would be honest with themselves even in 400AD, everything in Revelation was still future. Even a future 1000 year physical reign. That was the hope that kept the early church moving forward. Not because they demanded or even taught one was coming. It was always by faith because Revelation 20 is God's literal Word. No one could apply it spiritually. To do so was anathema. Can any one give one logical reason in 400AD the word 1000 would mean an indefinite time, and a physical resurrection on a physical earth, would not be viewed as literal? Did the early church change chapter 20, so it would be argued about hundreds of years later?
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Jews do not think God can be a man. And of course we know Jesus is God incarnate. The Jews expect a king to bring peace and judge the world but do not expect it to be God incarnate. The king that the Jews expect can be God incarnate and fulfill all those expectation along with bringing Israel into the new covenant at that time. If you look at all the before and after details of when the kingdom comes you will see a substantial change from the last 2000 years of world history. The idea of the kingdom of God being spiritual and actually coming to the earth are not mutually exclusive ideas.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

So in this passage when the throne of David is established there is judgement and justice from that time forever.

You have a hard time proving that there judgment and justice has been established. The throne of David in Jer 3 is called the throne of the LORD because Jesus is LORD. I know you are very set in your beliefs but I see the literal fulfillment of these verses coming in the future and all the promises to national Israel will be fulfilled too. I am not a pharisee and I believe that Dan 7 is literal and future so is Dan 9 Zech 14 and many many other places where the before and after picture is covered. You can talk about the new covenant all you want and I agree it is established and so too will Israel be grafted back into it. All the before and after pictures give great detail and so many specifics that an allegorical approach is not consistent. The events are future and is you took time to isolate the many specifics that futurist hold you will see current events following those specifics like a dot to dot picture.

You make the same mistake as the Pharisees. Jesus spoke about a spiritual kingdom that could not be seen with the human eye. It was experienced through the new birth.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Can you prove there is one pre-mil Jew alive today? There may be some in the church deceived into wanting a pre-mil kingdom, but what is a pre-mill kingdom if the king does not return until after the kingdom is over?

The church is not going to be on earth for the Millennium. That is the error, not that a Millennium does not exist, that is the amil error. Athiest = no God. Amil = God does not get the Sabbath of Revelation 20. It is not about the church going overboard in one direction, so we go to the opposite extreme.

Satan deceived the world with evolution and a 14 billion year old universe. So we get athiest who cannot explain the God of the Bible. No one 2000 years ago was claiming John was a Pharisee or pre-mill heretic, because he put chapter 20 into Revelation. Nor was the early church to even look for an earthly kingdom. Were there Pharisees in the 2nd century church? Did all of 2nd century church think the Second Coming happened 70 years ago? People should think before they jump to so many conclusions.

Preterist claim all has happened thus their 1000 years happened as well. They have nothing in Revelation.

Why would Revelation 20 be in the past at all? Amil in this forum avoid that question like the plague. Revelation was about one and only one climactic Second Coming. One that gets interrupted by Satan. If it is not interrupted by Satan explain why Revelation 13 claims there is one. The final harvest starts after the church is removed. The church is not harvested. Paul said it is caught up, not cut down.

The canon of the NT that included Revelation was used by a church that viewed the whole book as future. It was not about dispensations. It was not about recapping the next indefinite period of time over and over. No early church writer ever interpretated Revelation with their current conditions as fulfillment. They may have tried to come up with their own private interpretation, but they were not spirit led interpretations that would change nor explain future history. Nor could any one explain Revelation until they saw it happen before their own eyes. That has always been the view of Revelation unless private interpretation as heresy did creep in. But using heresy to change whole concepts in Revelation is just as much heretical as every other private interpretation over the last 1990 years. If people here would be honest with themselves even in 400AD, everything in Revelation was still future. Even a future 1000 year physical reign. That was the hope that kept the early church moving forward. Not because they demanded or even taught one was coming. It was always by faith because Revelation 20 is God's literal Word. No one could apply it spiritually. To do so was anathema. Can any one give one logical reason in 400AD the word 1000 would mean an indefinite time, and a physical resurrection on a physical earth, would not be viewed as literal? Did the early church change chapter 20, so it would be argued about hundreds of years later?

The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

The phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text.

Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavors starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.

Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomizing the friendliness and hospitality of the place.

People also use ‘a thousand’ as a round figure or as a phrase to describe a general amount. If they had $1053 (literally pronounced one thousand and fifty three dollars) it wouldn't be uncommon or unusual to say I had a thousand dollars. They would simply round it off to a familiar even number. This is where 10, 100, 1,000, and 10,000 are often used. These are not wooden numbers.

This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.

Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’ (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).

People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand but be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.

It is a fact that a thousand is used as much in Scripture to refer to approximate amounts as it is literal ones. The phrase “a thousand” is repeatedly used by the Holy Spirit to describe an indefinite figure/period. Like 10, 100 and 10,000, a thousand is commonly used as an even round figure to represent New Testament truths. Revelation 20, a chapter in the most symbolic book in the Bible, fits this pattern effortlessly. To obtain a broad understanding of the biblical usage of a thousand (even if for the sake of argument it meant 1,000) it is sensible to also study the number 10,000, as both are used in a similar figurative manner throughout Scripture. Involving both in the same study better illustrates the symbolic usage of the number 1,000. One soon discovers, the terms a thousand and ten thousand are employed many times in Scripture, in varying figurative senses, to describe large numbers or vast periods of time. The expressions are also commonly used to symbolically describe great pictures of immeasurable vastness. Notwithstanding, the term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17.

Few will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature.
 
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Timtofly

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The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognise the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

The phrase “a thousand” comes up a lot in every day conversation. For example: “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a familiar saying. This simply tells us that much can be gleaned from a still print. An image can be more revealling and more influential than a substantial amount of text.

Another well-known phrase that some use is: “A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.” This suggests that the greatest of endeavors starts with the first move – a great undertaking must start somewhere.

We may in passing say: “I have a thousand things to do today.” However, the expression is no way intended to delineate an exact number, but rather a notion. It is simply a figure of speech.

Tourists are welcomed to Dublin, Ireland by “Welcome to City of a Thousand Welcomes.” This is simply a figurative expression epitomizing the friendliness and hospitality of the place.

People also use ‘a thousand’ as a round figure or as a phrase to describe a general amount. If they had $1053 (literally pronounced one thousand and fifty three dollars) it wouldn't be uncommon or unusual to say I had a thousand dollars. They would simply round it off to a familiar even number. This is where 10, 100, 1,000, and 10,000 are often used. These are not wooden numbers.

This figure is also used to describe a long indeterminate period of power and government. Hitler boasted that the Third Reich would last a thousand years. The Nazi Party used the terms Drittes Reich and Tausendjähriges Reich (Thousand-Year Reich) to describe the rule, power and vision of the Fascist kingdom. It wasn’t that Hitler limited his wicked dream to that period, but that it symbolically represented a long period of unparalleled supremacy.

Churchill also infamously said of the victory of the war, “if we fail, the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, ‘This was their finest hour’ (Churchill in his speech on June 18, 1940).

People often mistakenly concentrate upon the actual figure revealed rather than what that figure represents. One hundred and forty and four thousand on the other hand, whilst rarely used (being found only in the deeply symbolic book of Revelation), is similarly used, only in an increased manner to impress a number that is completely unfathomable by human capability. The figure of one hundred and forty and four thousand but be viewed in relation to the biblical use of a thousand representing vastness and 12 representing authority.

It is a fact that a thousand is used as much in Scripture to refer to approximate amounts as it is literal ones. The phrase “a thousand” is repeatedly used by the Holy Spirit to describe an indefinite figure/period. Like 10, 100 and 10,000, a thousand is commonly used as an even round figure to represent New Testament truths. Revelation 20, a chapter in the most symbolic book in the Bible, fits this pattern effortlessly. To obtain a broad understanding of the biblical usage of a thousand (even if for the sake of argument it meant 1,000) it is sensible to also study the number 10,000, as both are used in a similar figurative manner throughout Scripture. Involving both in the same study better illustrates the symbolic usage of the number 1,000. One soon discovers, the terms a thousand and ten thousand are employed many times in Scripture, in varying figurative senses, to describe large numbers or vast periods of time. The expressions are also commonly used to symbolically describe great pictures of immeasurable vastness. Notwithstanding, the term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17.

Few will surely dispute that “a thousand” is very loosely interpreted in much of the Bible’s literature.
Yet not a single question answered, but a long post of a private opinion interpretation. It is not even logical to bring up a baker's dozen of excuses of why a number cannot be literal. Is God not capable of being specific when it comes to controlling what happens on earth? How do you know, that time coming to an end in Revelation 10:6 is not just another figurative statement that could mean something totally different than your private interpretation? Is picking and choosing "your" correct time schedule not just a private interpretation?

It is the end of sin and physical sin nature. But not the end of God's events on earth. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. That is a warning, not a suggestion.
 
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Marilyn C

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[QUOTE="sovereigngrace, post: 75298814, member: 424622

He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees. As man, He has assumed the throne of David, as God He has assumed the Father's throne. This is speaking about authority. He has totally fulfilled every demand as man and God and He therefore reigns on high upon the throne of David and His Father's throne.[/QUOTE]

I agree with much of what you say as per scriptures and the Lord being both human and divine. Now just a couple of points.

You say that Christ `ASSUMED` the Father`s throne. The word `assumed,` can mean to usurp, to take for granted, to be arrogant. And obviously the Lord did not assume the Father`s throne in that sense.
Then the word `assumed` can also mean `to take or begin to have power or responsibility. So I think you mean that.

So we know that the Lord is sitting at the Father`s right hand till His enemies are brought to His footstool for judgment.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Son), "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool." (Ps. 110: 1)

And what is the Lord doing at the Father`s right hand? He said " I will build my `called out ones.` (Matt. 16: 18) The details of that building is in Eph. 4: 11 - 16, Col. 2: 18 & 19.

So when the Lord`s enemies are brought to the Lord for judgment, what happens then? We know from God`s word that the Lord will begin to reign over those nations bringing judgments and putting down all rule and authority. When that is complete then the Son will subject Himself to the Father.

`...when He puts an end to all rule and authority .....when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 28)

Thus we see that the Lord is on the Father`s throne and the Father will always have that throne. Then we also see that the Lord has authority over ever rule and authority in every realm. So where does the Lord exercise His great authority that the Father has given Him?

On the Father`s throne? I don`t believe so.
I believe that the Father has set up His Son`s own throne in another area. So where does God`s word tell us the Son`s `OWN THRONE` will be?

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Christ`s OWN THRONE is revealed in Ps. 2. The Father says -

`... I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

And where is that?

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So we see that the Lord`s own throne will be in the highest realm of God`s great Kingdom where He will rule over every authority in every realm.

1. The Body of Christ with the Lord on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)
2. The OT saints in the New Jerusalem. (Heb. 11: 16)
3. Israel over the nations of the earth. (Rev. 21: 24, Isa. 66: 22)
 
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Jamdoc

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Many reject the gospel of the Kingdom Jesus and the disciples preached and replace it with the Millennial Kingdom of the Pharisees. How can you separate a king from his kingdom and still have a king? How can you embrace the Pharisee's Millennial Kingdom and not have their version of the Messiah?

Easy, Jesus sits on the RIGHT HAND of the Father right now, He is not given the title King of Kings and Lord of Lords until the end times, He is not given the kingdoms of the earth that He is to rule until the 7th trumpet of God's wrath, as 1 Timothy 6 puts it that's when "his times" are come.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Right now what He rules, sitting at the right hand of the Father is heaven, the current spiritual kingdom not of this world. Right now who rules the earth (even though God is sovereign over it, He allows Satan control of the earth), is Satan. Satan was able to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world, if only Jesus would worship him, in Luke 4:5-8.

I want you to notice this in the verse
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Our sovereign father has PERMITTED Satan to have rulership of the earth, and has even given Satan authority to give rulership to whoever Satan chooses. In the end times, after Satan is cast out of heaven forever, Satan delegates his power to the beast, to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:2
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

This I find fascinating. Even after God has cast Satan out of heaven for good, Satan still has control over the earth and is able to delegate that authority to who he chooses. God still permits him that, for His purposes, it's beyond our comprehension, on WHY God would still grant this authority to His enemy that He just threw down from heaven and plans to destroy forever. His ways are higher.

Here's some food for thought.. in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 we have someone preventing the Antichrist from rising, like it cannot happen, until someone who is currently holding him back is taken out of the way. Have you ever thought that the person holding back and restraining is actually Satan? He's the one who wouldn't want these prophecies to happen because they mean he's doomed. He wants to stave them off from actually happening for as long as he can because right now he enjoys privilege, he has rulership of the earth AND he can accuse people before the throne in heaven. That's kind of a cushy arrangement for someone who rebelled against God and led humans created in God's image into sin against God. Once Satan gets kicked out he knows his time is short so he goes for maximum damage at that point, he stops restraining "all hell breaking loose". Anyway there's also the case for Michael which is one of the more traditional people filling the role of the restrainer. This is just speculation that makes some sense too.

Anyway, Jesus is not King of Kings and Lord of Lords on this earth yet, after the 7th Trumpet He is given the earth as His kingdom, the wedding supper of the lamb happens, then He returns to earth to establish the millennial kingdom and Satan is bound and can deceive the nations no more. He has an earthly kingdom for 1000 years there is 1 final act of rebellion, for unknown reasons, just what scripture says, and then the earth is destroyed, final judgement, and a new heaven and new earth are created and Jesus is the eternal king of those.

I see NOTHING in scripture that contradicts that view. In fact I only see confirmation.
If you want to call the spiritual kingdom of heaven that Jesus rules now as "Amillennial" fine, but we are also pre millennial of an earthly kingdom.
 
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Jamdoc

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Guess I'm not cause I'm not Amill. :rolleyes: But the Jesus I believe in is Post-Trib and Pre-Mill.


The Glorious Return

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

If by post trib you mean after the 6th seal but before the trumpets and vials (note where the sun and moon darken in Revelation 6) that's pre wrath which is where I'm at. I see too much parallel in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 for them not to be talking about the exact same events.

if by post trib you mean after the 7th trumpet well, that's not as bad as a pre trib position or an amill position that has no great tribulations or a historical or preterist tribulations fulfillment, but I think you are missing just how closely Matthew 24 fits with Revelation 6, and 1 Thessalonians 4. It's absolutely uncanny how they fit together.
 
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Dave L

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The Jews do not think God can be a man. And of course we know Jesus is God incarnate. The Jews expect a king to bring peace and judge the world but do not expect it to be God incarnate. The king that the Jews expect can be God incarnate and fulfill all those expectation along with bringing Israel into the new covenant at that time. If you look at all the before and after details of when the kingdom comes you will see a substantial change from the last 2000 years of world history. The idea of the kingdom of God being spiritual and actually coming to the earth are not mutually exclusive ideas.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

So in this passage when the throne of David is established there is judgement and justice from that time forever.

You have a hard time proving that there judgment and justice has been established. The throne of David in Jer 3 is called the throne of the LORD because Jesus is LORD. I know you are very set in your beliefs but I see the literal fulfillment of these verses coming in the future and all the promises to national Israel will be fulfilled too. I am not a pharisee and I believe that Dan 7 is literal and future so is Dan 9 Zech 14 and many many other places where the before and after picture is covered. You can talk about the new covenant all you want and I agree it is established and so too will Israel be grafted back into it. All the before and after pictures give great detail and so many specifics that an allegorical approach is not consistent. The events are future and is you took time to isolate the many specifics that futurist hold you will see current events following those specifics like a dot to dot picture.
But Jesus taught Amillennialism. And all the things you say from the Old Testament are symbols of the spiritual realities of the Kingdom. They are not the kingdom. You are essentially saying Christianity returns to Judaism which is a serious sin.
 
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Dave L

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`The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that od Judah.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem....

It shall be in that day that I will destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; ....` (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

God`s grace to us and God`s grace to Israel.
Notice the fulfilled Prophecy many still blindly look for.

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, And close up the breaches thereof; And I will raise up his ruins, And I will build it as in the days of old:” Amos 9:11 (KJV 1900)

Speaking of the present times; “And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:” Acts 15:13–16 (KJV 1900)
 
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Jamdoc

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But Jesus taught Amillennialism. And all the things you say from the Old Testament are symbols of the spiritual realities of the Kingdom. They are not the kingdom. You are essentially saying Christianity returns to Judaism which is a serious sin.

Jesus also taught that He'd return to earth. That's also premillennial. To discard premillennial is to discard Revelation 20, a new testament book written by an Apostle, who very much knew that Jesus WAS on the right hand of the Father in heaven. Or at the very least, discard its meaning and claim that what it describes is hyperbole.
 
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Jamdoc

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I just don't see how you guys can think that Jesus ONLY has a spiritual kingdom.
He has a spiritual kingdom now, He will get an earthly kingdom after the 7th trumpet, and He will have an eternal kingdom in a new heavens and new earth after final judgement. Why is the assumption that if you believe in an earthly kingdom that you don't believe in the spiritual kingdom? Why does Jesus only get 1 kingdom or the other? He gets them all in scripture.
 
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Running2win

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If by post trib you mean after the 6th seal but before the trumpets and vials (note where the sun and moon darken in Revelation 6) that's pre wrath which is where I'm at. I see too much parallel in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 for them not to be talking about the exact same events.

if by post trib you mean after the 7th trumpet well, that's not as bad as a pre trib position or an amill position that has no great tribulations or a historical or preterist tribulations fulfillment, but I think you are missing just how closely Matthew 24 fits with Revelation 6, and 1 Thessalonians 4. It's absolutely uncanny how they fit together.

No, I'm pre-wrath and agree with you. I'm just pointing out that Jesus Himself said He was not coming back until after the great trib, as a general rule. :)
 
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