THE SABBATH TRUTH!

LoveGodsWord said:

I see so in your view everyone under the old covenant is lost. Lucky we were not born under the old covenant in your view. Thank you for sharing your view. I am glad we have had this conversation as it only confirms that you do not know what that old covenant is or what the new covenant is that the old covenant pointed to. Are you interested in being shown now from the scriptures why the old covenant was made and what it was made up of? I noticed also you did not provide scripture for your claims above. Your claims that everyone under the old covenant is lost is unbiblical. I am happy to show you why from the scriptures if your genuinely interested. If your not interested there is no point in us continuing. Let me know what you think.

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No I don't mind you show me what is the old or new covenant is...

Tell me what is your view in terms of whether both covenants still in effect today or only one...etc

Also, how is a covenant comes into effect?

Yes I didn't provide scripture but the concept is in the Bible

LoveGodsWord said:

Well I can easily make a large post on this topic but I have decided to slow this one down if your interested and take one step at a time showing scripture for everything posted and see if you agree one step at a time with the scriptures posted. Before starting this though do you mind if I show from the scriptures that everyone in under the old Covenant is not lost as you claimed earlier?

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No go ahead, I want to see.

LoveGodsWord said:

If you read through HEBREWS 11 it will show you that your claims that everyone under the old covenant was not lost. For example HEBREWS 11 provides examples of people that are under the old covenant saved in exactly the same way as we are today and that is by faith (e.g. MOSES in HEBREWS 11:24-29; JOSHUA and God's people (HEBREWS 11:30); RAHAB (HEBREWS 11:31); GIDEON, and of BARAK, and of SAMSON, and of JEPHTHAE; DAVID; SAMUEL, DANIEL and of all the rest of the prophets to many to list in (HEBREWS 11:32-40). Then we have ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, DANIAL, EZEKIEL, MICAH, JONAH; AMOS, OBADIAH, EZRA (Queen Ezra), NEHEMIAH, HOSEA, JOEL, HABBAKAK, ZEPHENIAH, ZACHARIAH, HAGGAI, MICHAH and MALACHI. Ok we might stop here keeping in mind we have only mentioned a very small number of God's people under the old covenant as there are too many to list here.

QUESTION TIME. Can you see now and do you now agree that people under the old covenant are not lost now? YES/NO

After I hear back from you, We can then look at what the old and new covenants are and how they differ.

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So you think the old covenant in Sinai is based on Faith since Moses, Joshua had faith under the old covenant?

So you don’t think that since the old covenant was established the good news was also preached at the same time to the people? According to Hebrews 3 & Hebrews 4

LoveGodsWord said:

HEBREWS 11 provides examples of people that are under the old covenant saved in exactly the same way as we are today and that is by faith (e.g. MOSES in HEBREWS 11:24-29; JOSHUA and God's people (HEBREWS 11:30); RAHAB (HEBREWS 11:31); GIDEON, and of BARAK, and of SAMSON, and of JEPHTHAE; DAVID; SAMUEL, DANIEL and of all the rest of the prophets to many to list in (HEBREWS 11:32-40). Then we have ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, DANIAL, EZEKIEL, MICAH, JONAH; AMOS, OBADIAH, EZRA (Queen Ezra), NEHEMIAH, HOSEA, JOEL, HABBAKAK, ZEPHENIAH, ZACHARIAH, HAGGAI, MICHAH and MALACHI. This is a tiny list of people under the old covenant that were saved by faith. This is God's Word not mine.

According to the scriptures people in the old covenant were saved in exactly the same way as we are today and that is by faith. This is the same as people even before the Old covenant (eg Abraham - ROMANS 4:3). Only the process of forgiveness was different between the old and the new covenant.

Now of course we are in the new covenant now and not the old. We can discuss this latter. After I hear back from you, we can then look at what the old and new covenants are and how they differ.

I believe HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4 also teaches the gospel of faith (see HEBREWS 4:1-2).

Now do you agree that the above examples as shown in HEBREWS 11 are saved or lost? We will not be able to move forward until we are at agreement. I wish to go slowly and be at agreement at each stage before moving forward.

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Yes I agree that people under the old covenant saved by faith so the old covenant is based on Faith according to your conclusion?Because You can be of the old covenant doesn't mean you're saved by the old covenant works but by the gospel unless the old covenant the same as the Gospel which based on Faith...
You don't have to answer now...you can continue on to how the two covenants differ...

Hi Everyone. I'm entering this discussion (or possibly re-entering it, but in reading it today on one of my rare days on the forum it seems like new material to me) and I've really enjoyed the banter, even though, not to put too fine a point on it, the snark from time to time concerns me. Let all that we do be done in love. In reading my brief commentary, please understand that nothing I say is intended to interfere with your own relationship with JHWH, undermine your extreme worship and obedience to Him through His amazing demonstration of love to us in His Son, Jesus. We have been called into a blessed relationship, as the words in both the old and new covenants discuss.

To sum up what I think is the divide here, I'd like to suggest that the readers look at both covenants as God's loving attempt to cause us to choose life, to choose HIM over our own waywardness. Our freedom to think and choose is stressed in both books. The encouragement to turn to Him in truth and understand what can be known of Him is also stressed.

Some of the readers seem to place the covenants in opposition, as if the goal of the old covenant was to create a rote observance of ceremonial law while the new covenant goal was to create a person observant from the inside. I suggest that the goal of God has always been to work life in us from the inside out and that the commandments He gave us are the eternal structure to show us what works. Love is demonstrated by our observance to not killing, not coveting, no having adultery. So it's not the observance of not killing that makes us love necessarily, but it surely shows love to the person not killed, if you can follow the logic. On the other hand, love does no harm to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. No law exists that can bring us into right relationship with God because sin is such a deep problem in our hearts. All it takes is a reading through of this thread to see the utter arrogance in our hearts to presume to put words in each other mouths in order to boost ourselves and our versions of understanding, to see the attacks, subtle or not so subtle, and the accusations that these individuals are not actually rational and considerate individuals made in the image of God discussing their individual understanding of what God says to offer the information to others and to see the push to exclude people from the definition of God's acceptance based on whether they speak the party line of the non-Sabbatarian or Sabbatarian groups or whether they subscribe to particular dietary philosophies or not. None of these things SAVE us, just like NOT killing doesn't save us. Those who do those things do them because they feel it's the right thing to do as explained by JHWH. Those who don't, well, when it comes to murder that's a clear case. When it comes to remembering to keep the Sabbath day as separate to God, why would we want to condemn someone as wanting to put others "under a law" of bondage.

I suggest that a reading of the new covenant from the vantage of a God-lover would be in order, to see how the direction wasn't to make Israel GENTILE but to make of them RELATED to God. It took them a while to figure it out, but eventually the apostles got the message that God also wanted the GENTILES to be related to Him, not by rote observances like the Pharisees and Judaizers (who also succumbed to the division of the legalistic viewpoint Jesus so clearly demonstrated for us to avoid and had their own share of snark and disregard for the brethren) but by a real and living way, through the blood of Jesus, living like God wanted for us to live because those same loving laws would be written on our hearts, causing us to want to do good for our neighbors, not causing us to divide into the "more righteous" and "not righteous enough" castes but being unified in His love. It appears to me that JHWH wasn't about making anyone Jewish or non-Jewish but was all about making us truly His children.

I often encourage, because I always believe, that studying those wonderful written words we have of Him is best done with minimal interference from the subsequent history or purported recent or current "prophets," but do read it with the benefit of the history held within the Book itself. Compare the Law with the histories, with the Prophets, with the Psalms and Proverbs, and with the words of Jesus and the acts and letters of the immediate followers of Jesus as they worked their way through the first decades following the times of Jesus. See what happened and why it happened in the context of that day, not today, as best as you can. (See through their eyes as best as you can, in other words.) Keep a humble attitude toward your own greatness too as we don't win points with God for being more "right" any more than the Pharisees did, lol!

Just to say it again, all that I offer is for whatever use it may be to you, and in this case it is to give a separate perspective of this thread, a view through another set of eyes. I have no denomination to uphold, no modern "prophet" to which I hold allegiance. I wish you all well in your individual walks and appreciate your contributions to this interesting discussion!

LoveGodsWord said:

Actually not really Bob. According to God's Word (not mine) God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word. GENTILES are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in God's NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

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That is correct LGW there is no Israel to be grafted into because we are all one in Christ. All are grafted into Christ who ended the Israelite covenant of laws at Calvary. Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcised by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

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Since you didn't quite finish the thought for some reason I did. Look again what I pasted in red.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

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Abraham was not an Israelite. We know we are grafted into Christ. Paul may have concluded that we are also grafted into Abraham. There is no scripture that tell us we are grafted into Israel. You only conclude that because of your preconceived ideas.

Jesus is the life giver and when you try to teach that we are grafted into the now defunct dead Israel you are teaching heresy. Israel, as a nation, had their chance to be God's pride and joy, they blew it. Now each Jew comes to Christ the same way I do. I have been grafted into the tree that gives life, Jesus Christ just as was Abraham of old. Jews are no longer under the covenant given at Sinai. Gentiles never were and for anyone to try to teach that somehow gentiles and Jews are still subject to the laws of that covenant is pure heresy.

Bob S said:

There is no scripture that tell us we are grafted into Israel. You only conclude that because of your preconceived ideas. Jesus is the life giver and when you try to teach that we are grafted into the now defunct dead Israel you are teaching heresy. Israel, as a nation, had their chance to be God's pride and joy, they blew it.

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Brother, those who obey all the commandments of Jesus are part of "all Israel" when we "come in" to the part of Israel that excepted Jesus until the full number of the Gentiles "come in" who will go to heaven when Jesus returns. Jesus will restore the nation convincing Judaism that He is the messiah. They are not ready to go to heaven and will stay on earth during the thousand years.


Jesus will restore the nation by convincing Judaism that He is the messiah when He fulfills to hit the statue of Nebuchadnezzar on His return. They are not ready to go to heaven and will stay on earth for the thousand years with all those who need further growth such as the part of Israel that experienced a hardening until the return of Jesus. The fate of the "lukewarm" in need of further growth below is for those who hold on to what they have until Jesus returns, but need further growth like Judaism.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

LoveGodsWord said:

Please do not say things I am not saying. As posted earlier I wish to move through this slowly so we are in agreement providing scripture at every step of the way. I have posted 2-3 times now that we are in the new covenant and not the old covenant. We have not even started talking about this yet.

I wanted to start off by showing your claims that everyone in the old covenant is lost is not biblical and that everyone before and after the old covenant were saved by faith.

I asked you a question in my last two post after providing examples of people in the old covenant from scripture that God's Word says are saved and not lost...

Do you agree that the above examples as shown in HEBREWS 11 are saved and not lost as you thought they were?

Can you please answer the question so we can move forward please.

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Yes I believe people under the old covenant were saved...But! They were Not saved because they were under the old covenant but because they believe the gospel...So I can say that old covenant in which the law was given is Not based on Faith...Galatians 3:12

I think I wasn’t clear when I said people under the old covenant were Not saved. What I mean those who followed the old covenant to be saved were Not saved Because the old covenant is about mans works Exodus 19...

LoveGodsWord said:

Ok I see you have re-edited and changed your earlier post now. I am not asking what I believe I am asking if you believe what has been shared with you from the scriptures is true or not in your view. Look dear friend, if you are shown a belief you may have had is not biblical. Look at it as a blessing. If you are not correct about something from God's Word, you would want to know so you can have a closer walk with JESUS would you not?

You have been blessed already in learning that everyone in the old covenant were not lost and saved by faith as those before the old covenant and those after the old covenant right?

So if we are in agreement we can continue looking at the topic of the old and new covenants in detail.

1. So do you agree that Gods' people in the old covenant according to the scriptures were saved by faith just like God's people before the old covenant and God's people after the old covenant in the new covenant.

Is this correct? YES/NO

We will look at what the old covenant and new covenant are shortly from the scriptures.

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Yes I agree people under the old covenant were saved by Faith..

pasifika said:

Yes I agree people under the old covenant was saved by Faith..

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I believe they were saved by faith too. Israelites were not saved by keeping Sabbath, so how is it we cannot be saved unless we keep Sabbath? The following is from the SDA prophetess, Ellen White. Ellen promoted salvation by works of the Law. The SDA church promotes her writings as truth.

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

Ellen also promoted the works of tithing as being salvational:

"He who embezzles his Lord's goods not only loses the talent lent him of God, but loses eternal life. Of him it is said: "Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness." The faithful servant, who invests his money in the cause of God to save souls, employs his means to the glory of God and will receive the commendation of the Master: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: . . . enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." What will be this joy of our Lord? It will be the joy of seeing souls saved in the kingdom of glory. "Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."" {3T 387.1}

guevaraj said:

Brother, those who obey all the commandments of Jesus are part of "all Israel" when we "come in" to the part of Israel that excepted Jesus until the full number of the Gentiles "come in" who will go to heaven when Jesus returns. Jesus will restore the nation convincing Judaism that He is the messiah. They are not ready to go to heaven and will stay on earth during the thousand years.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. (Romans 11:25-31 NIV)​

Jesus will restore the nation by convincing Judaism that He is the messiah when He fulfills to hit the statue of Nebuchadnezzar on His return. They are not ready to go to heaven and will stay on earth for the thousand years with all those who need further growth such as the part of Israel that experienced a hardening until the return of Jesus. The fate of the "lukewarm" in need of further growth below is for those who hold on to what they have until Jesus returns, but need further growth like Judaism.

To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first… Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, except to hold on to what you have until I come.’ To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give that one the morning star. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2:18-29 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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This debate is nothing but a logomachy. You interpret scripture to say something I cannot agree with and you do the same with what I present. Maybe someone else will be willing to continue, I choose to move on. Even if you were to be found correct about where we are grafted does not mean that we are under the defunct Sinai covenant laws.

Bob S said:

This debate is nothing but a logomachy. You interpret scripture to say something I cannot agree with and you do the same with what I present. Maybe someone else will be willing to continue, I choose to move on. Even if you were to be found correct about where we are grafted does not mean that we are under the defunct Sinai covenant laws.

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Brother, the Ten Commandments are not eliminated but "surpassed". The "surpassing glory" of the new covenant surpasses the former glory of the Ten Commandments. "Surpassing" means more than not less than the Ten Commandments.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Bob S said:

This debate is nothing but a logomachy. You interpret scripture to say something I cannot agree with and you do the same with what I present. Maybe someone else will be willing to continue, I choose to move on. Even if you were to be found correct about where we are grafted does not mean that we are under the defunct Sinai covenant laws.

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It is sad so many who come if Christ's name completely deny and ignore God Separating Levi from all the peoples of the world, including Israel, and giving him a separate Covenant of a Priesthood Abraham didn't have, on Mt. Sinai, that provided for the administration of God's Laws and for the atonement of the sins of His People until He would fulfill HIS Prophesied role as High Priest.

I think Jesus called it "Omitting the weightier matters of the law".