When Jesus prayed that the church be one what did he mean?

Neostarwcc · Aug 24, 2020

In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? That the church be one now? As Christian leaders around the world are fighting for (Especially her majesty Queen Elizabeth II). Or did he mean afterwards in the coming kingdom where the church WILL be one?

I fight for Christian unity because, I take the first interpretation. If God desired us to be one than, we as Christians should be one. But, we're not. We've been divided ever since after the apostles died. Why? If God declared everything beforehand (which he did) why are we so divided? Why aren't we one like God desires us to be? Christs prayer before his death only confirms that God desires us to be one as God is one but, we're not. We are always arguing and bickering with each other. Why?

Springbok · Aug 24, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this?

He meant that our individual unity with God may be of the same "calibre" as is the unity between Jesus and the Father. Out of that our corporate unity with God flows.

Neostarwcc said:
That the church be one now?

Yes, now. Not somewhere then. Now.

Albion · Aug 24, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? That the church be one now?

Yes. That of course would be the ideal, even if we humans have a way of not making it come to pass.

solid_core · Aug 24, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? That the church be one now? As Christian leaders around the world are fighting for (Especially her majesty Queen Elizabeth II). Or did he mean afterwards in the coming kingdom where the church WILL be one?

I fight for Christian unity because, I take the first interpretation. If God desired us to be one than, we as Christians should be one. But, we're not. We've been divided ever since after the apostles died. Why? If God declared everything beforehand (which he did) why are we so divided? Why aren't we one like God desires us to be? Christs prayer before his death only confirms that God desires us to be one as God is one but, we're not. We are always arguing and bickering with each other. Why?

He was not talking about church, but about believers.

Neostarwcc · Aug 24, 2020

solid_core said:
He was not talking about church, but about believers.

Well don't us believers make up the church? A majority of people who are Christian are in fact a part of the church as a whole.

We Protestants might say that Catholics for example aren't a part of the Christian church. I believe the Queen is working for Protestant unity more than adding Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox into the mix but the fact of the matter is, they are in fact still mainstream christians.

They hold to the same creed we do (Nicene creed), believe in Christ like we do, accept the same gospel we do. (Jesus died for our sins was buried, rose on the 3rd day and appeared to the 12 apostles (Yes, including Judas) Cephas and several other people. Lastly he appeared to Paul... etc. Forgive me I forget the entire gospel.

But yet protestants have been divided with Catholics since the 16th century. Why? Our differences in theology doesnt make them any less followers of Christ. They're way more Christian today than they were in the 16th century thats for sure.

Rejecting other major Christian denominations is like me becoming a Hyper-Calvinist and rejecting the salvation of other Protestants. They believe the same things I do, just other Protestants believe different theologies than I do. However, you cannot erase other Protestants because of that. God cannot save a large multitude of people as vast as the stars if we start rejecting the salvation of other Christians just because they're a little different than us.

solid_core · Aug 24, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Well don't us believers make up the church? A majority of people who are Christian are in fact a part of the church as a whole.

We Protestants might say that Catholics for example aren't a part of the Christian church. I believe the Queen is working for Protestant unity more than adding Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox into the mix but the fact of the matter is, they are in fact still mainstream christians.

They hold to the same creed we do (Nicene creed), believe in Christ like we do, accept the same gospel we do. (Jesus died for our sins was buried, rose on the 3rd day and appeared to the 12 apostles (Yes, including Judas) Cephas and several other people. Lastly he appeared to Paul... etc. Forgive me I forget the entire gospel.

But yet protestants have been divided with Catholics since the 16th century. Why? Our differences in theology doesnt make them any less followers of Christ. They're way more Christian today than they were in the 16th century thats for sure.

Rejecting other major Christian denominations is like me becoming a Hyper-Calvinist and rejecting the salvation of other Protestants. They believe the same things I do, just other Protestants believe different theologies than I do. However, you cannot erase other Protestants because of that. God cannot save a large multitude of people as vast as the stars if we start rejecting the salvation if other Christians just because they're a little different than us.

If you mean the spiritual church, then yes. If you are talking about catholics, lutherans, anglicans, charismatics etc, then thats something much more institutional and wordly.

Neostarwcc · Aug 24, 2020

Albion said:
Yes. That of course would be the ideal, even if we humans have a way of not making it come to pass.

Honestly? It just takes the effort to see who are God's elect and who aren't. God makes it extremely obvious who the true Christians of the world are and who are not. Not just in Christians falling away but in their general demeanor and from fruit coming outward from the person in question.

I'm not just saying works but also fruits of repentance, fruits of belief (a person once claiming faith in Christ but had no faith in the trinity or in Christs divinity. Growing up into a person who has faith in his divinity and the trinity)

Baby Christians are baby Christians but if fruit doesn't come out of a Christian after a while, they're not Christians. Especially peopke who are claiming faith yet feel no remorse for their sins because theyre covered by the blood of Christ. That's popular today. But the truth is, faith and salvation always starts with repentance. If there's no repentance there's no regeneration and without the Holy Spirit there's no Salvation. Christ meant what he said when he said you will know a Christiam by their fruits.

Neostarwcc · Aug 24, 2020

solid_core said:
If you mean the spiritual church, then yes. If you are talking about catholics, lutherans, anglicans, charismatics etc, then thats something much more institutional and wordly.

Didn't Peter start the "worldly" church though due to Christs instructions? I do mean the physical Christian church that virtually every Christian is a part of. Even those who claim no denomination are a part of the physical church. We are divided but we are as good as one since we belong to the same family (God's family). One day every Christian saved Jew and every other descendant of Abraham will realize this.

But as to the spiritual church... what is that?

solid_core · Aug 24, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Didn't Peter start the "worldly" church though due to Christs instructions? I do mean the physical Christian church that virtually every Christian is a part of. Even those who claim no denomination are a part of the physical church. We are divided but we are as good as one since we belong to the same family (God's family). One day every Christian saved Jew and every other descendant of Abraham will realize this.

But as to the spiritual church... what is that?

The spiritual church, or the invisible church, are all true Christians, no matter in what denomination they are.

The physical church, visible church, are denominations and local churches with members. Some of them may be true Christians, some not.

1213 · Aug 24, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? ...

I have understood it means, we have same “mind”, same will. Disciples of Jesus want that God’s will happens and, in that way, they are one with each other and also one with God as Jesus said we should be.

… 'Our Father in heaven… … Let your will be done…
Matt. 6:9-10

There are various kinds of workings, but the same God, who works all things in all…. …But the one and the same Spirit works all of these, distributing to each one separately as he desires.
1 Cor. 12:6, 11

For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
Fil. 2:13

make you complete in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Heb. 13:21

“Christians” are divided, because there is not the same will in all, and not all want that God’s will happens.

bling · Aug 25, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? That the church be one now? As Christian leaders around the world are fighting for (Especially her majesty Queen Elizabeth II). Or did he mean afterwards in the coming kingdom where the church WILL be one?

I fight for Christian unity because, I take the first interpretation. If God desired us to be one than, we as Christians should be one. But, we're not. We've been divided ever since after the apostles died. Why? If God declared everything beforehand (which he did) why are we so divided? Why aren't we one like God desires us to be? Christs prayer before his death only confirms that God desires us to be one as God is one but, we're not. We are always arguing and bickering with each other. Why?

As long as there is a way to rise to a powerful, rich, glorious position in a "Church", there will be arguing and disagreement between "denominations". If the highest position in a church was unpaid house church "leader", with a good possibility of being arrested and sent for a time to prison or killed, leaders in the church might find unity. I have corresponded and still correspond with several unregistered Chinese home church leaders and they show a very close unity with really no denominational divisions. Teaching the same doctrine and fellowshipping each other. Might severe persecution in the West eliminate the insignificant and bring about unity or at least get the hypocrites and individuals with hobbies to leave?

Neostarwcc · Aug 26, 2020

bling said:
As long as there is a way to rise to a powerful, rich, glorious position in a "Church", there will be arguing and disagreement between "denominations". If the highest position in a church was unpaid house church "leader", with a good possibility of being arrested and sent for a time to prison or killed, leaders in the church might find unity. I have corresponded and still correspond with several unregistered Chinese home church leaders and they show a very close unity with really no denominational divisions. Teaching the same doctrine and fellowshipping each other. Might severe persecution in the West eliminate the insignificant and bring about unity or at least get the hypocrites and individuals with hobbies to leave?

The thing is North and South America have been freely able to go to achurch of their faith without fear of persecution for hundreds of years. England was founded around 930 AD and has been Christian ever since. So any countries owned by England have been able to freely state faith for a really, really long time.

I'm not sure about South America I just know a majority of them are in fact, Christians. To take away that freedom would definitely cause riots.

Besides we're persecuted enough by Atheists in our everyday lives. We supposedly have freedom of religion here in North America but, we sure dont. You cannot even say "Im a Christian" without a dozen Atheists jumping down your throat. Thats good enough for persecution. We are allowed to practice, but we sure as Susan arent allowed to talk about our faith with others. Or say "Praise Jesus" or point out what Christmas and Easter are really about every year.

I dont think persecution would help us find unity. We need leaders like Queen Elizabeth II to advocate for Christian unity. Where are our good presidents like FDR? He was fantastic and helped with this very issue. But right now in the 21st century no presidents are interested in Christianity or unity theyre just interested in winning every 4 years and winning alone.

bling · Aug 27, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
The thing is North and South America have been freely able to go to achurch of their faith without fear of persecution for hundreds of years. England was founded around 930 AD and has been Christian ever since. So any countries owned by England have been able to freely state faith for a really, really long time.

I'm not sure about South America I just know a majority of them are in fact, Christians. To take away that freedom would definitely cause riots.

Besides we're persecuted enough by Atheists in our everyday lives. We supposedly have freedom of religion here in North America but, we sure dont. You cannot even say "Im a Christian" without a dozen Atheists jumping down your throat. Thats good enough for persecution. We are allowed to practice, but we sure as Susan arent allowed to talk about our faith with others. Or say "Praise Jesus" or point out what Christmas and Easter are really about every year.

I dont think persecution would help us find unity. We need leaders like Queen Elizabeth II to advocate for Christian unity. Where are our good presidents like FDR? He was fantastic and helped with this very issue. But right now in the 21st century no presidents are interested in Christianity or unity theyre just interested in winning every 4 years and winning alone.

Were are you finding these Spirit led politicians?
What has happened in the past to other religions, when governments try to unit everyone under one religion and you might look at non-Christian religions also.

concretecamper · Aug 27, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? That the church be one now? As Christian leaders around the world are fighting for (Especially her majesty Queen Elizabeth II). Or did he mean afterwards in the coming kingdom where the church WILL be one?

I fight for Christian unity because, I take the first interpretation. If God desired us to be one than, we as Christians should be one. But, we're not. We've been divided ever since after the apostles died. Why? If God declared everything beforehand (which he did) why are we so divided? Why aren't we one like God desires us to be? Christs prayer before his death only confirms that God desires us to be one as God is one but, we're not. We are always arguing and bickering with each other. Why?

I for one do not think for a minute that His prayer went unanswered. His Church has always been One professing the same faith since the beginning.

Daniel Marsh · Aug 27, 2020

"Neostarwcc, In John 17:20-23 Jesus asks God the Father for the church to be one as they are one. What did he mean by this? That the church be one now? "

John 17
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we [are] one; 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.

24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me; 26 and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.

2 John 1:1
Greetings from the Elder. To the lady chosen by God and to her children. I truly love all of you. And I am not the only one. All those who know the truth love you in the same way.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 John 1:2
We love you because of the truth—the truth that lives in us. That truth will be with us forever.
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2 John 1:3
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from his Son, Jesus Christ, as we live in truth and love.
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2 John 1:5
And now, dear lady, I tell you: We should all love each other. This is not a new command. It is the same command we had from the beginning.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 John 1:6
And loving means living the way he commanded us to live. And God’s command is this: that you live a life of love. You heard this command from the beginning.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 John 1:13
The children of your sister who was chosen by God send you their love.

1 John 2:5
But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 2:7
Jesus Told Us to Love Others
My dear friends, I am not writing a new command to you. It is the same command you have had since the beginning. This command is the teaching you have already heard.
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1 John 2:10
Those who love their brothers and sisters live in the light, and there is nothing in them that will make them do wrong.
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1 John 2:15
Don’t love this evil world or the things in it. If you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you.
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1 John 3:1
We Are God’s Children
The Father has loved us so much! This shows how much he loved us: We are called children of God. And we really are his children. But the people in the world don’t understand that we are God’s children, because they have not known him.
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1 John 3:10
So we can see who God’s children are and who the devil’s children are. These are the ones who are not God’s children: those who don’t do what is right and those who do not love their brothers and sisters in God’s family.
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1 John 3:11
We Must Love One Another
This is the teaching you have heard from the beginning: We must love each other.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:14
We know that we have left death and have come into life. We know this because we love each other as brothers and sisters. Anyone who does not love is still in death.
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1 John 3:16
This is how we know what real love is: Jesus gave his life for us. So we should give our lives for each other as brothers and sisters.
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1 John 3:17
Suppose a believer who is rich enough to have all the necessities of life sees a fellow believer who is poor and does not have even basic needs. What if the rich believer does not help the poor one? Then it is clear that God’s love is not in that person’s heart.
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1 John 3:18
My children, our love should not be only words and talk. No, our love must be real. We must show our love by the things we do.
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1 John 3:23
This is what God commands: that we believe in his Son Jesus Christ, and that we love each other as he commanded.
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1 John 4:7
Love Comes From God
Dear friends, we should love each other, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has become God’s child. And so everyone who loves knows God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
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1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love to us: He sent his only Son into the world to give us life through him.
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1 John 4:10
True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins.
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1 John 4:11
That is how much God loved us, dear friends! So we also must love each other.
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1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us. If we love each other, God’s love has reached its goal—it is made perfect in us.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 4:16
So we know the love that God has for us, and we trust that love. God is love. Everyone who lives in love lives in God, and God lives in them.
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1 John 4:17
If God’s love is made perfect in us, we can be without fear on the day when God judges the world. We will be without fear, because in this world we are like Jesus.
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1 John 4:18
Where God’s love is, there is no fear, because God’s perfect love takes away fear. It is his punishment that makes a person fear. So his love is not made perfect in the one who has fear.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 4:19
We love because God first loved us.
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1 John 4:20
If we say we love God but hate any of our brothers or sisters in his family, we are liars. If we don’t love someone we have seen, how can we love God? We have never even seen him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 4:21
God gave us this command: If we love God, we must also love each other as brothers and sisters.
1 John 5:1The people who believe that Jesus is the Messiah are God’s children. Anyone who loves the Father also loves the Father’s children.
John 5:2How do we know that we love God’s children? We know because we love God and we obey his commands.

Short Answer, we are to be one in God's love for each other.

Gottservant · Aug 29, 2020

I think that's different for everyone.

So the point is: the Church is to be "One", despite every possible difference.

In other words, silenced by God, but alive in Christ.

concretecamper · Aug 29, 2020

Gottservant said:
I think that's different for everyone.

that is like say the truth is different for everyone.

Gottservant said:
So the point is: the Church is to be "One", despite every possible difference.

no, the Church is One like Jesus and the Father are One, not despite anything.

When Jesus prayed that the church be one what did he mean?

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