Anyone who claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary is calling Christ a liar in John 19:30, and has revealed the greatest error of modern Dispensational Theology.
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Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20
- Thread starter BABerean2
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Anyone who claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary is calling Christ a liar in John 19:30, and has revealed the greatest error of modern Dispensational Theology.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. I agree for salvation was given to Jews who are in the the church to be made one new man Ephesians 2:14-15.
2. The lying comes by way of deception through not rightly dividing the word when saying Jeremiah 31:31-36 of the New Covenant settled with the whole nation of Israel to receive the KoH reign on earth is not scriptural.
3. These are they who want to make the church receive promises of the KoH that were not promised to them.
These people are denying that God gave an eternal covenant to Israel that is conditioned by obedience 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16. and has not happen yet but will in the last days before the second advent Romans 11:25-29.
4. It is not about dispensational, it is about rightly dividing the word.
People who are using that line of argument are using it as a crutch to prop up their wrong interpretation.
They are using it as an excuse to excuse themselves from being honest to exegesis and only account for their set of scriptures and set point of view.
This is my honest assessment after dealing with these types for a long, long time. Unfair to say the least. Jerry kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. No Jew or Gentile can receive any promise with out salvation or be an heir or joint heir with Christ.
2. Because you think the program with Israel is over you will never believe truth of 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16.
3. Because the New Covenant happened at Calvary and Peter was addressing all the men of Israel you believe Jeremiah 31:31-36 has been fulfilled.
You speak in generalizations, appearances and perceptions but not context.
This is because you will not believe the Hebraic perspective. You will say otherwise but is a false claim.
You want to keep the Gentile mindset and hold hostage the correct Hebraic perspective in the Old Testament prophecies.
You hold onto the Catholic Church view of Amill that started or at least instigated it and forced it on common people.
4. You can believe there is a different age for the New Heaven and the New Earth but not for the church and Israel.
5. You’re spiritual Jew theory is out of context and made into a whole doctrine falsely. It is a one sided argument.
The context is to the unbelieving Jew and nation who were told by Paul they were not real Jews unless they were saved.
Yes it includes the Gentiles who were grafted in.
You can use that term in that context but that has nothing to with Israel’s kingdom promises of positions in the KoH Reign being the same as the church. That is your false extrapolation and deductions to try and prove your false theory.
6. You know they will rule and reign in Israel because David will be their King Ezekiel 37:20; the twelve apostles over the 12 tribes of Israel Matthew 28:19; and Christ the King over all the earth Zechariah 14:9.
Isaiah 2:4-2 is about Israel and Judah with the Messiah and rulership with him for the law will go out of Zion.
So the only thing you won’t give Israel is ruling at the head of the nations.
Since you believe the church and Israel is the same in positions of rulership you have to believe that the church of Jews and Gentiles will be at the head of the nations and the land of Israel?
I know your answer most likely but I have to. Jerrykelso
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I do not ignore Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, which directly quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34, proving that the New Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary.
If that is a "generalization", throw your Bible in the trashcan because it does not mean what it says.
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It is the believing remnant of Israelites. (Romans 11:1)
Nothing to do with the "line of Jews", as Israelites were both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham from the beginning. (Genesis 17:12)
Jacob's trouble occurred thousands of years ago in the Babylonian captivity.
Galatians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1,2 identify the Covenant Fulfiller. Hint: It's not israel.
Cite any credible evidence disproving it.
If you have at least one molecule of Cherokee DNA, do you think God would consider you to be part Cherokee?
The belief that all will be saved.
Cite any Scripture outside of Romans 11 which corroborates your claim of Israel's gifts and calling in Romans 11.
There are only two instances of "all Israel" in Romans. Romans 9:6-8 pre-identifies who it is. Hint: It's not "the Jewish nation called Israel".
Under no conditions are enemies of the gospel beloved. Every NT Scripture reference to the beloved refers to the Church.
Universalism, since Israel is all of humanity.
Cite any credible evidence disproving it.
It is the distinction between believing "all Israel" and unbelieving "of Israel".
More accurately, it is the Israelitish remnant (Romans 11:1), comprised of believing descendants and non-descendants of Abraham within the nation of Israel.
It is distinguishing between believing "all Israel" and unbelieving "of Israel".
Totally true. Sadly, only a remnant, believers in Christ, will be saved.
Sadly, only a remnant, believers in Christ, will be saved. But those who are saved begin their rule and reign in Christ without delay.
The only Scriptural calling is that of the Church.
Cite any credible evidence disproving it.
Our reign begins immediately upon receiving our salvation in Christ with our translation into His Kingdom. (Colossians 1:13)
When?
When?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. I didn’t say the New Covenant wasn’t fulfilled at Calvary, we both agree on that.
2. Where we disagree is that you think it was given to the nation of Israel in the framework of the church.
3. One it says Israel and the house of Judah he will make the New Covenant.
The New Testament Church was not mentioned at all in this prophecy.
This was in conjunction with the kingdom.
4. After those days is in the future tribulation connected with the Kingdom.
There is no allusion or implication of the Day of Pentecost in this passage.
Writing the law in their hearts and putting in their inward parts and being their God and being his people is about the kingdom for the kingdom will begin when Judah and Israel repent and become one stick Ezekiel 37:16-28.
Verse 34: And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more.
This never happened at Calvary or in the early church.
Tell me how every man didn’t have to be taught anymore to know the Lord? Which means being saved. That never happened. The Jews got more stubborn until Paul left them to go to the Gentiles Acts 28:24-31. And that was before 70 A.D. that Jesus prophesied about the destruction of Jerusalem and the nation in Matthew 24:1-2.
5. In Matthew 23:37-39, when Israel rejected Christ he said your house will be left desolate.
FOR I SAY UNTO YOU, YE SHALL NOT SEE ME HENCEFORTH, TILL SHALL SAY,
BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. This never happened at Calvary or in the early church at all. They are still backslidden and are not all saved.
6. So are you going to Deny what the scriptures say here in the whole context?
7. Hebrews 8:6-13 is the same context as Jeremiah 31:31-34.
8. Hebrews 10:16-18; This was spoken to Hebrew Christians who Paul was contrasting the Old and New Covenants.
The law was a shadow of things to come. The New Covenant was the reality.
Verse 9 says he taketh away the First that he may establish the second.
Verse 16 says, this is the Covenant which is the New Covenant; that I will make with them ( the house of Israel and Judah) future and not the present church, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them;
V17; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. This is all future.
He wrote to the Jews as a Jew and not to gentile churches as in his epistles.
So yes he mentions this New Covenant that took the place of the Old Covenant at Calvary.
Christ is offering is efficacious for all past, present and future sins on condition on proper confession of sins and continuance in grace.
This is the reason Paul utilized Jeremiah’s passage not for the time when Israel and Judah would be united as one but the spiritual aspect of the statement above about Christ offering for people to be forgiven without the blood of bulls and goats.
Are you going to deny this truth in the word?
9. In conclusion, there is no generalization about the New Covenant coming to pass at Calvary.
The generalization you make is that it is associated naturally with the church age at the Day of Pentecost and Peter addressing the men of Israel. They all have to be saved as a nation and because they weren’t, proves your doctrine wrong. Are you going to deny this truth and stay with your wrong talking points? Jerry kelso
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It sure does say Israel, and Judah.
Look at how Peter addressed the crowd below on the Day of Pentecost.
Who accepted the New Covenant on the Day of Pentecost?
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Once again, your Two Peoples of God doctrine crumbles under the weight of the scriptures.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2
1. The House of Israel and the house of Judah of the early church was not mentioned in Jeremiah’s context and they were not united as one stick as in Ezekiel 37:16-28.
And they were not all saved.
The most important part was that the last days from Jeremiah was not the early church.
So you just think because I mentioned the Names of Israel and Judah it fits both contexts. You need to learn to read and comprehend right.
This is why you get it so wrong. You are not understanding or paying attention. Which is it?
2. The promise is made to their children but that will be in the future.
3. Now you need to address my whole post and tell me if you are going to deny those truths directly.
Jerry kelso
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Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
The remnant will be saved and so will the woman in the wilderness which is Jewish for they birth the manchild(144,000) and the remnant of her seed Revelation 12:5; 12:17. That will be all the nation. Are you going to deny this truth?
Now answer my full post from last time. Jerry kelso
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Make up your mind, Jerry. You said all of Israel would be saved, and now you admit it is only a remnant.
Which is it?
Do you think a nation is made up of only 144,000 people?
The "man child" found in Revelation 12 is the seed of the woman from Genesis 3:15, and Genesis 12:3, whose fulfillment is found below.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
The 144,000 are found below in a letter written to the Church, by the half brother of Jesus.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
jgr,
1. Saints judging is future not this life today 1 Corinthians 6:3. Saints will judge the world and the angels vs 2-3. This is not happening now unless you spiritualize it. So when do think this will happen.
2. If the spiritual calling is only the church then why is the promise according to Israel only?
Israel will be a physical nation just like today with land Genesis 15:18-21 and ruled by a king, David Ezekiel 37:20 and the twelve tribes ruled by the twelve apostles.
3. Colossians 1:13 is salvation.
Any spiritual rulership christians do today is in the church that the Corinthians we’re having trouble doing. We are in spiritual warfare but we have to speak in faith but in the coming kingdom we can speak and the physical mountain can move for we will not have to faith. The laws of nature and nature of God’s theocracy will be different.
4. About the remnant is ridiculous because you pick and choose about unbelieving and believing remnant. That is one sided and the other side is that all the nation will be saved which in Revelation 12.
Do you really think that this is the church remnant? I am sure you probably do.
Why does the church need a remnant when the gates of hell shall never prevail against it? It’s not hard to imagine what that answer might be.
6. I have to but I’ll be back. Go ahead and answer this. Jerrykelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. I never said that only a remnant would be saved.
That is your words to make people think I am undecided or hypocritical.
I said the believing remnant and the woman in the wilderness who is the main body on national Israel preserved for the last 3.5 years which is the time of Jacob’s trouble.
Quit putting words in my mouth.
2. I never said the nation is only made up of 144,000. These are the Jews that are sealed for protection through the trumpet judgements 9:4, and are special evangelists that are raptured in Revelation 14:1-5 to Heaven.
The manchild is usually rendered as a historical context which doesn’t match the time factor of Revelation 1:19. They have to be future of a smaller company
(Manchild) that is birthed from a larger woman Israel the Sun Clothed Woman.
In vs 17 is Israel’s remnant of her seed.
Seed denotes a birth. Read your Bible instead of jumping to conclusions that I’m saying something I didn’t say.
3. James 1:1 has to do with the scattered tribe of Israel in James day and has nothing to do with the future lot alone the 144,000 sealed in the tribulation.
If you can’t understand the historical context in the book of James you surely cannot figure out. the 144,000 in the future tribulation found in Revelation 12.
You would do better to forget what your teachers have told you and start over.
4. James was talking to the church of that day not in Revelation. Jerrykelso
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Do you think Peter was confused below on the Day of Pentecost?
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. Peter was not confused but you are.
He said that which was spoken was the like signs to accompany the kingdom. But he also knew Joel was not fulfilled then because the curse had not been lifted and Israel was not flourishing agriculturally and the Messiah had not come back and taken the kingdoms of this world he wasn’t ruling from Israel over all the earth.
2. Quit trying to pigeonhole the scripture and hold the subject by a passage of scripture that is addressed to Israel and Judah but has nothing to do with the kingdom reign in the early church.
Now you know you are not being true to context.
I know you want to be right but you constantly misrepresent what I say and believe in appearances without sufficient evidence to back it up on all the scriptures on the given subject.
Your posts are not fair and are one sided and that is not proper Biblical hermeneutics. Jerrykelso
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sovereigngrace
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This is a total avoidance of every point and piece of biblical evidence I submitted to you. You obviously are lost for a direct response. I always take that as a complement that the post was un-rebuttable.
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sovereigngrace
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To sum up what you are saying: i disagree with what the Bible says and prefer my own private interpretation. The Book rebukes personal opinion and man-made doctrines. I do not need to do it.
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sovereigngrace
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Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?
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jerry kelso
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sovereign grace,
1. Why do you accuse me wrongly?
I hate to break it to you but you are not right on every point and to act like I have given any scriptural proof on anything is very dishonest.
2. Unrebuttable? That is a bunch of malarkey and haughty.
You have a lot of scriptures but you don’t know how to put it together correctly for the most part.
Just because you used to be a dispensationalist doesn’t mean all of a sudden you have come to an airtight and an open and shut case except in your mindset.
You can disagree but don’t act like I am a mere novice when I am not.
You are not trying to be apologetic much at all.
Jerry kelso
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